Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-22-2009, 07:02 PM   #9751
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Call it proper thread selection. I tried moving up in thread stakes but I was not ready for what the game was. Spade got his butt handed to him as well.
Those 911 posters are downright scary, and I'm not even joking.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:05 PM   #9752
tk1133
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,221
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
When I post any data, it will include source code and the data source, and it will be reproducible by anyone that wants to go to the trouble. I'll just post links here and publish it elsewhere.

And yes, I'll take the grand to give up my 1040. My work is not remotely related to the poker biz.
I respect your privacy...I don't believe that, and it's all good, but I'll ask: What do you do?
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:08 PM   #9753
tk1133
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,221
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Those 911 posters are downright scary, and I'm not even joking.
On this site? I'm bout to go look...
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:08 PM   #9754
AaronT
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 459
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
AaronT,

You have not provided one good reason why I should trust these poker sites.
Nor do I intend to. You have the burden of proof backwards. I have made no claims about the fairness of the deal. I personally believe it is fairly dealt. Some people have claimed it has been rigged this way or that. When such a claim is made the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

If you must have one though, how about the reality that no matter how many times the dataset is tested, no matter how deeply, and in no matter which way the result has always been the same: the deal appears to be fair? It's certainly a higher degree of proof met then your meandering thoughts ungrounded by evidence.

Quote:
On the other hand, I've given you many examples of why we shouldn't. These sites were "regulated" by the KGC, which we now know was merely a rubber stamp. The KGC basically charged these sites money to use their servers on an Indian reservation which happened to rest above a major internet connection to the United States. If the regulatory body which oversees your operations is making money hand over fist because you exist, why the hell would they ever do anything to cause you not to exist. I also would like to start my own company and regulate it myself. It sounds very profitable.
First off, you don't have everything quite striaght, and secondly the facts you do have apply only to a small subset of on-line cardrooms.

Quote:
Please reason with me Mr. Scientist. Let us wax philosophical about the logic of ignoring the previous transgressions and moving forward to a bright new day where we relinquish logic and reasoning while blindly trusting offshore, unregulated, money laundering, mafia controlled businesses, errrr, I mean, internet pokers.
Why would we want to do that?

You seem to want me to argue for trusting the companies rather then in testing the data. Yet you earlier claimed to be a scientist. What kind of a scientist do you claim to be, sir?
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:18 PM   #9755
ibluffoldladies
old hand
 
ibluffoldladies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 3-betting your grandmother
Posts: 1,275
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Which sites are you referring to?

Also, for a bit I thought you were kinda normal, but just concerned. However when you went on your "mafia controlled", "money laundering" rant at the end I realized you probably aren't all there.
I'm referring to all of the sites.
Money laundering happens at these sites. That's a fact.
Wherever there is money laundering, there is the mafia.

I'm all here, and normal, educated, etc. etc. I'm not a tin foil conspiracy nut. I'm not a "truther". I enjoy logic and reasoning.

Now, to the scientist AaronT who judges science fair's, I just want one logical and reasonable explanation of why I should trust Pokerstars, Fulltilt, or any internet poker site. This logical reason needs to be greater than the negative reasons which have already plagued online poker. As Mark Seif himself so eloquently stated in his defense of UB/AP..."this could happen anywhere. It could happen on pokerstars. It could happen on Full tilt."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuY6r-R0SY

Well Seif, I actually agree with you there. He seems like a logical person doesn't he? Lawyers are gifted with such skills. He sure as hell made sense when he said that. Why should we ignore that?
ibluffoldladies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:29 PM   #9756
ibluffoldladies
old hand
 
ibluffoldladies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 3-betting your grandmother
Posts: 1,275
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
Nor do I intend to. You have the burden of proof backwards. I have made no claims about the fairness of the deal. I personally believe it is fairly dealt. Some people have claimed it has been rigged this way or that. When such a claim is made the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

If you must have one though, how about the reality that no matter how many times the dataset is tested, no matter how deeply, and in no matter which way the result has always been the same: the deal appears to be fair? It's certainly a higher degree of proof met then your meandering thoughts ungrounded by evidence.
There are many ways to rig something. It doesn't have to involve a rigged deal which, over a large sample, wouldn't even show anomalies if the "rigged deal" occurred under a certain frequency. I make no claims about having proof that online poker is rigged at sites other than UB/AP. I really don't. The only thing I'm doing is using logic and reasoning to extrapolate the results we've already seen. When I say results, I don't mean results from UB/AP only. I mean results from ANY industry which is unregulated and involving large sums of money(wall street, old school Las vegas to name a couple). There is corruption. It is human and expected. To ingore this would be ******ed, and I use that word because when you people claim others as "rig-tarded", it's actually completely opposite to assume that big money and no regulation = not rigged.

We get it though. We know internet poker is your cash cow. I don't blame you for defending it either. Just treat the people that have legitimate concerns with more respect, and that way, you can continue to do what we all know you're doing, and we can continue to do what you know we're doing. Capiche?
ibluffoldladies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:29 PM   #9757
Cry Me A River
Orange is the new Green
 
Cry Me A River's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 23,790
Re: Merge Gaming Network

In before merge....
Cry Me A River is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:32 PM   #9758
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
I'm referring to all of the sites.
Money laundering happens at these sites. That's a fact.
Wherever there is money laundering, there is the mafia.
Great then you won't mind providing some proof since it is a "fact". And I don't mean take an example of once it happening in a small rinky dink site somewhere. You used a blanket statement so back it up as a blanket statement.

Also, for the record, money laundering is not restricted to "the mafia". It goes on all over the world. Not that it matters, but it does illustrate how warped your mind seems to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
I'm all here, and normal, educated, etc. etc. I'm not a tin foil conspiracy nut. I'm not a "truther". I enjoy logic and reasoning.
This is clearly false.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:36 PM   #9759
ibluffoldladies
old hand
 
ibluffoldladies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 3-betting your grandmother
Posts: 1,275
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post

This is clearly false.
You're right. Thinking that these unregulated sites are corrupt would be so far in conspiracy land that I need a straight-jacket strapped onto me right now

Even though two major online poker sites were caught cheating, I would still be a a complete wacko to think that could happen anywhere else.

ibluffoldladies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:38 PM   #9760
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
You're right. Thinking that these unregulated sites are corrupt would be so far in conspiracy land that I need a straight jacked strapped onto me right now

Even though two major online poker sites were caught cheating, I would still be a a complete wacko to think that could happen anywhere else.

Do you trust energy companies? Would it be justified if I didn't trust ANY energy company regulated in the USA because of Enron?

Also, I noticed you conveniently ignored the first part of my response about proving the money laundering accusation you made.

Additionally, your reading comprehension of the thread could use some work. No one is saying that it couldn't happen somewhere else. But we also aren't lunatics that think every site is out to get us and we can actually see that there really isn't any evidence of any of the notable sites doing anything wrong.

In fact, it is funny you keep bringing up AP/UB as Josem was a key player in bringing those issues to light. You ever see the 60 Minutes report on it? He was in it.

Last edited by KingOfFelt; 10-22-2009 at 07:43 PM.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:39 PM   #9761
themandude
veteran
 
themandude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: █♣█
Posts: 2,252
Re: Merge Gaming Network

I think prima is rigged, that site is dam tough.
themandude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:42 PM   #9762
AaronT
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 459
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
There are many ways to rig something. It doesn't have to involve a rigged deal which, over a large sample, wouldn't even show anomalies if the "rigged deal" occurred under a certain frequency.
False. Making an unsubstantiated assertion does not make it true. No matter how small the rigging, any deviation from a fair deal will show up in a large enough sample. The smaller the deviation from a fair deal, the larger the sample must be to distinguish the rigging from randomness, but any deviation whatsoever will show up. This is just a mathmatically reality you cannot escape.

Quote:
I make no claims about having proof that online poker is rigged at sites other than UB/AP.
Forget proof, how about the smallest shread of evidence?

Quote:
I really don't. The only thing I'm doing is using logic and reasoning to extrapolate the results we've already seen. When I say results, I don't mean results from UB/AP only. I mean results from ANY industry which is unregulated and involving large sums of money(wall street, old school Las vegas to name a couple).
Wallstreet at any time past or present is just about the most regulated bunch of transactions on the planet. I'm not sure they fit your criteria of an unregulated industry.

And once more, you keep stating that online pokerrooms are unregulated. That is false. You might make the claim they are underregulated, but that would still be an opinion. But you cannot expect your false "facts" to be stated time and time as support of your position. You cannot base conclusions on false facts. That will not work.


Quote:
There is corruption.
Assumption maskerading as fact. If you have evidence, then provide it. Otherwise you need to phrase it as the belief that it is, such as "I believe the sites are corrupt." As it stands it makes you not the site out to be the unethical one, because that is slander.

Quote:
It is human and expected. To ingore this would be ******ed, and I use that word because when you people claim others as "rig-tarded", it's actually completely opposite to assume that big money and no regulation = not rigged.
Conclusion based on false facts, unsubstantiated opinion, and conclusions not following from assumptions.

Quote:
We get it though. We know internet poker is your cash cow. I don't blame you for defending it either.
Appeal to motive fallacy.

Quote:
Just treat the people that have legitimate concerns with more respect,
When they do, I do.
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:42 PM   #9763
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
There are many ways to rig something. It doesn't have to involve a rigged deal which, over a large sample, wouldn't even show anomalies if the "rigged deal" occurred under a certain frequency. I make no claims about having proof that online poker is rigged at sites other than UB/AP. I really don't.
Rigging in this thread has been defined as rigging the RNG. This thread is not about the other ways that sites/people can cheat in online poker, such as superusers, bots, cashouts, etc. These are all serious topics and there are plenty of threads about them. This thread only focusses on rigging the RNG.

There is no-one here who has called the online poker sites angels. It's just that there has been absolutely no reliable evidence that any of the major sites are rigging the RNG.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:43 PM   #9764
Circadux
adept
 
Circadux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 712
Re: Merge Gaming Network

Maybe stars is rigged, or FT also.
I don't know, is there a thread on 2+2 regarding this issue?
I think not... Cmon OP time to make an ''online poker is rigged'' thread!
Circadux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:46 PM   #9765
ibluffoldladies
old hand
 
ibluffoldladies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 3-betting your grandmother
Posts: 1,275
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Do you trust energy companies? Would it be justified if I didn't trust ANY energy company regulated in the USA because of Enron?

Also, I noticed you conveniently ignored the first part of my response about proving the money laundering accusation you made.
I'll go ahead and draw on occam's razor to answer your laundering question. When there are two competing theories, the simplest explanation is usually correct. You claim that money laundering doesn't happen even though it would be easy to do so in online poker. I claim money laundering does happen because it would be easy to do so in online poker. I guess I really don't have a fact for you. A little logic sprinkled over reason and a dash of occam - but no fact.

The Enron/energy scandal is a horrible analogy. The difference in the Enron scandal and the UB/AP scandal is that the people from Enron were brought to justice and punished for what they did. That's at least a deterrent to other companies not to repeat the behavior. There was no justice brought for the crimes at UB/AP, and thus there is no deterrent at all.
ibluffoldladies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:48 PM   #9766
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
I'll go ahead and draw on occam's razor to answer your laundering question. When there are two competing theories, the simplest explanation is usually correct. You claim that money laundering doesn't happen even though it would be easy to do so in online poker. I claim money laundering does happen because it would be easy to do so in online poker. I guess I really don't have a fact for you. A little logic sprinkled over reason and a dash of occam - but no fact.

The Enron/energy scandal is a horrible analogy. The difference in the Enron scandal and the UB/AP scandal is that the people from Enron were brought to justice and punished for what they did. That's at least a deterrent to other companies not to repeat the behavior. There was no justice brought for the crimes at UB/AP, and thus there is no deterrent at all.
Money laundering is very likely going on in online poker, and most likely takes the form of chip dumping. This is very different from rigging the RNG.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:50 PM   #9767
AaronT
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 459
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
I'll go ahead and draw on occam's razor to answer your laundering question. When there are two competing theories, the simplest explanation is usually correct. You claim that money laundering doesn't happen even though it would be easy to do so in online poker. I claim money laundering does happen because it would be easy to do so in online poker. I guess I really don't have a fact for you. A little logic sprinkled over reason and a dash of occam - but no fact.
Occum's Razor is an excellent tool, but you don't quite have it down yet. Let's look at the two models and see which is the simplier model:

1) Operational poker site doing A,B,C,D,E,F, and G.

2) Operational poker site doing A,B,C,D,E,F, G, AND money laundering.

Assuming the evidence does not distinuish the cases, Occum's Razor calls for the simplier model, which is clearly 1).

You've misapplied it.

I'm glad you've researched it though. Occum's Razor is a beautiful tool.
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:55 PM   #9768
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
I'll go ahead and draw on occam's razor to answer your laundering question. When there are two competing theories, the simplest explanation is usually correct. You claim that money laundering doesn't happen even though it would be easy to do so in online poker. I claim money laundering does happen because it would be easy to do so in online poker. I guess I really don't have a fact for you. A little logic sprinkled over reason and a dash of occam - but no fact.
It would be easy for you to do a lot of crimes. You could steal from your mother, you could steal from your work. So can I assume you are a thief?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Money laundering is very likely going on in online poker, and most likely takes the form of chip dumping. This is very different from rigging the RNG.
I think he is referring to the site itself though :/
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 07:59 PM   #9769
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
I'm referring to all of the sites.
Money laundering happens at these sites. That's a fact.
Wherever there is money laundering, there is the mafia.
As usual, 'ibluffoldladies' manufactures facts to suit himself.

Of course, it is not a "fact" that money laundering happens at these sites.

Even the US Government admits that there is no criminal money laundering happening there: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...95&postcount=8
Quote:
I'm all here, and normal, educated, etc. etc. I'm not a tin foil conspiracy nut. I'm not a "truther". I enjoy logic and reasoning.
This is all just more lies.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:00 PM   #9770
ibluffoldladies
old hand
 
ibluffoldladies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 3-betting your grandmother
Posts: 1,275
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Fellas, honestly I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, and I'm not going to invest my time doing so. I'm not paid to do that If this is just a thread about rigging the RNG, then maybe the title should be changed to note that. As it stands, the title simply states "rigged" - which in my assumption could mean a lot of things. The posts I have read were just the most recent ones, probably the last 50 or so.

I will add this however. You could still rig the RNG and over a large sample and notice no anomalies. How? Let's say one software update rigged the RNG for one month in a certain way. The next software update rigged the RNG in another way for one month. Looking at the data for both months however shows no anomalies because the "riggings" were created to even out the data. I'm not saying it happens that way, but it is an example of how it could happen, and no anomalies noted if you look at both months together. Extrapolate that out to whatever sample size you want. The way to cheat then obviously is to just know how it's rigged a certain month (let's say an insider working for the site), and play accordingly. It could go back and forth like this for years and nothing could be noticed.
ibluffoldladies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:06 PM   #9771
ibluffoldladies
old hand
 
ibluffoldladies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 3-betting your grandmother
Posts: 1,275
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Money laundering is very likely going on in online poker, and most likely takes the form of chip dumping. This is very different from rigging the RNG.
This is exactly what I'm referring to. I'm not claiming the sites themselves setup money laundering. I'm claiming it can be easily done through chip dumping and hence, they setup an easy way to launder money for criminals - whether intentional or not.

Last edited by ibluffoldladies; 10-22-2009 at 08:11 PM.
ibluffoldladies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:07 PM   #9772
old_moose
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 81
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Keep up the good work mom, don't let anyone get you down. Stick with it
old_moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:10 PM   #9773
AaronT
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 459
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
I will add this however. You could still rig the RNG and over a large sample and notice no anomalies. How? Let's say one software update rigged the RNG for one month in a certain way. The next software update rigged the RNG in another way for one month. Looking at the data for both months however shows no anomalies because the "riggings" were created to even out the data. I'm not saying it happens that way, but it is an example of how it could happen, and no anomalies noted if you look at both months together. Extrapolate that out to whatever sample size you want. The way to cheat then obviously is to just know how it's rigged a certain month (let's say an insider working for the site), and play accordingly. It could go back and forth like this for years and nothing could be noticed.
Of course you could catch those, too. Hand histories are timestamped so it's possible to pick up on occolations, especially if they effected things like EV, like it sounds like you have in mind, but to be sure of what you have in mind,
please provide one sample rigging concept that has an opposite that could be exploited through play that you don't think could be caught.
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:13 PM   #9774
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
Fellas, honestly I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, and I'm not going to invest my time doing so. I'm not paid to do that If this is just a thread about rigging the RNG, then maybe the title should be changed to note that. As it stands, the title simply states "rigged" - which in my assumption could mean a lot of things. The posts I have read were just the most recent ones, probably the last 50 or so.

I will add this however. You could still rig the RNG and over a large sample and notice no anomalies. How? Let's say one software update rigged the RNG for one month in a certain way. The next software update rigged the RNG in another way for one month. Looking at the data for both months however shows no anomalies because the "riggings" were created to even out the data. I'm not saying it happens that way, but it is an example of how it could happen, and no anomalies noted if you look at both months together. Extrapolate that out to whatever sample size you want. The way to cheat then obviously is to just know how it's rigged a certain month (let's say an insider working for the site), and play accordingly. It could go back and forth like this for years and nothing could be noticed.
So how would this make the sites any more money? And why would they do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
This is exactly what I'm referring to. I'm not claiming the sites themselves setup money laundering. I'm claiming it can be easily done through chip dumping.
This is a little more understandable. But what does this have to do with any sort of rigging in any way? And how is the mafia involved again? Fill me in.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 08:16 PM   #9775
AaronT
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 459
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
This is exactly what I'm referring to. I'm not claiming the sites themselves setup money laundering. I'm claiming it can be easily done through chip dumping and hence, they setup an easy way to launder money for criminals - whether intentional or not.
That seems unlikely given the context of post #9765. It was specifically using on-line pokerrooms' corruptions as analogous to Enron.

Seems like a rather convenient change of position, but okay... so is it now your position that the on-line pokerrooms themselves do not money launder?

Last edited by AaronT; 10-22-2009 at 08:21 PM.
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive