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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:56 PM   #9726
AaronT
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
What? The 1040 wouldn't say whether or not he was paid to post here or not it would just say what company he works for. If you discredit everything Josem says because he works for a poker site then you are an idiot.
Well, yes, of course you're correct on this point. I'm operating under the belief that the three people mentioned are not employed by on-line cardrooms in any capacity. I guess we'd need to make sure that the chosen shill declares that before hand lest I find myself out of a few G's because they have legitimate employment through the cardrooms a la Josem. But I think they would have mentioned that by now anyway.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:05 PM   #9727
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
You could not have done a worse job trying to understand what I wrote. Please try again.

I probably responded to your post inappropriately since I was re hashing previous conversations dealing w/ the same sort of context. All apologies for going over board on your point....

And the shills...
It's really not that big of a deal, it's just you have to questions somebody's motives when they are that obsessed and defensive about honest questions about a sites integrity. I'm just saying to be upfront about it and perhaps we could take the conversation to a different, perhaps more trusting level.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:07 PM   #9728
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I probably responded to your post inappropriately since I was re hashing previous conversations dealing w/ the same sort of context. All apologies for going over board on your point....
Apology accepted.

Quote:
And the shills...
It's really not that big of a deal, it's just you have to questions somebody's motives when they are that obsessed and defensive about honest questions about a sites integrity. I'm just saying to be upfront about it and perhaps we could take the conversation to a different, perhaps more trusting level.
Does this mean you're retracting this statement:

Quote:
Monteroy, QPW, Spadebidder are no doubt shills.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:08 PM   #9729
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I'll finish up the community card analysis within a week or so and publish a statistical breakdown of several hundred million boards. I can tell you now that it doesn't show anything suspicious, just a few interesting removal effects due to when players choose to see flops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
2 more weeks? 2 weeks for nothing. The HH's you are analyzing won't prove if a Poker site cheats....kinda mundane doncha think?
You haven't seen the analysis, yet. How do you know what it will or will not "prove?" I put "prove" in quotes because, of course, nothing will be proved in a mathematical sense. If that's what you meant, then you're wasting your time in this thread since no proof of that kind one way or the other will ever be shown.

But I suspect you simply don't trust something or someone. Either you don't trust the data or you don't trust Spadebidder himself to post his results honestly.

Or...you do trust Spadebidder and his data, but you have a weak understanding of probability and statistics and therefore you don't understand the significance of what Spadebidder is about to post.

Which is it?
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:11 PM   #9730
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by burden2 View Post
I'm not saying they make a living being shills- that would not be reasonable. I am just saying their motivation to post in this thread goes beyond what I have ever seen as far as internet debating on the same subject with new people posting the same arguments against them. Believe me I have wasted huge amounts of time debating politics or whatever on the web.
Sunshine, this thread isn't the least bit unusual on the web.

Hell, go over to the politics forum here on 2p2 and you'll see similar stuff. They just don't put it into one thread.

Quote:
Maybe they are paid to do it, maybe they work for online poker companies in some way, maybe they make a living playing online and are overly paranoid about fish thinking it is rigged. Whatever their motivation is it is clearly more than just intellectual engagement,
Well, I participated in these threads before I started working at PS, and I didn't really play a great deal either. I just find this stuff interesting.
Quote:
especially when you consider they seem to have zero respect for anyone thinking anything other than that those who run quasi legal offshore unregulated gaming establishments are 100% trustworthy....
That's just not true. I don't know why you need to make this stuff up.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:14 PM   #9731
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Monteroy, QPW, Spadebidder are no doubt shills.
I think one of the generally awesome things about the shill accusations is that I somehow generally miss being accused of this.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:17 PM   #9732
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
Apology accepted.



Does this mean you're retracting this statement:
Yes, since we're being level here I will retract and rephrase. QPW and Spadebidder are definatly shills. And Monteroy is probably like that little tiny mut, terrier" in the Warner Brothers, Tom and Jerry cartoons. Always following around that big Bulldog, named "Spike."
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:25 PM   #9733
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weevil99 View Post
You haven't seen the analysis, yet. How do you know what it will or will not "prove?" I put "prove" in quotes because, of course, nothing will be proved in a mathematical sense. If that's what you meant, then you're wasting your time in this thread since no proof of that kind one way or the other will ever be shown.

But I suspect you simply don't trust something or someone. Either you don't trust the data or you don't trust Spadebidder himself to post his results honestly.

Or...you do trust Spadebidder and his data, but you have a weak understanding of probability and statistics and therefore you don't understand the significance of what Spadebidder is about to post.

Which is it?
I appreciate what he's doing, no doubt. But for somebody "that knew something that nobody could know" before he started his analysis, I think his results will be skepticle to a lot of us. Let's say IF I were smart enough to make such an effort, what do you think QPW and Mont. and Spade would say if I compiled the same sort of "test?"
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:26 PM   #9734
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Even if he believes it, there is no way any amount of oversight can prevent fiddling the software. What you trust is the output of the software, which can be observed and analysed to whatever degree you want to do. You also have some degree of trust based on the fact that the vast majority of large companies operate in the best interest of their customers and shareholders, and are constrained by business logic from taking foolish risks that could put them out of business. It's in their best interest to run a fair game. The Las Vegas mob learned that lesson 30 or 40 years ago, and they have the most scrupulously honest casino games in the world now. They don't shoot the cash cow, and if they want to cheat they do it on taxes and skim, not by cheating their customers.
We now have several sleeper operatives in prominent dealer positions around the world who can be activated to rig decks without their knowledge at any time we feel a fish needs to win a big pot and keep a shark from taking all their money too quickly.

Never mind there are usually waiting lists for the fish's seat and rake will continue to be paid 24/7/365. It's all part of our master plan.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:27 PM   #9735
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

BTW what do you guys think about the Pitbull accusations? Also how do you feel about berrating(spell check?) me in my thread calling foul play on your boy Dave months before that situation any accusations were made public?
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:28 PM   #9736
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Merge Gaming Network

I strongly believe all the Merge Gaming sites are rigged. Does anyone else think this?
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:29 PM   #9737
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Lucas Davenport View Post
We now have several sleeper operatives in prominent dealer positions around the world who can be activated to rig decks without their knowledge at any time we feel a fish needs to win a big pot and keep a shark from taking all their money too quickly.

Never mind there are usually waiting lists for the fish's seat and rake will continue to be paid 24/7/365. It's all part of our master plan.
Dude, come on, is that
Spoiler:
Please, Mullet man, if that's your picture, take it down....
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:31 PM   #9738
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Yes, since we're being level here I will retract and rephrase. QPW and Spadebidder are definatly shills. And Monteroy is probably like that little tiny mut, terrier" in the Warner Brothers, Tom and Jerry cartoons. Always following around that big Bulldog, named "Spike."
Nah, in this thread I am essentially a troll with a target of of paranoid and dumb people because their reactions can be so much more entertaining and random if you give them enough space and time to speak their "mind."

Look at your past dozen posts, they are all over the place. Conspiracies, name calling, calling people pathetic for posting so much in this thread as you post endlessly in this thread.

I give people like spade and Aaron and Josem etc. props for trying to be rational and sane with you guys, I just like winding you guys up and watching how you dance about after.

I tried it in the 9/11 thread but I met my match because I vastly underestimated how insane the people were in that thread (both sides) and encouraging them to speak about thermite devices and royal bloodlines was not even needed, it just distracted them from the even crazier ramble they were doing anyway.

I learned my lesson, so for my message board hobby I stick here with much simpler riggedology folk, and see what new creative theory will hatch next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I appreciate what he's doing, no doubt. But for somebody "that knew something that nobody could know" before he started his analysis, I think his results will be skepticle to a lot of us. Let's say IF I were smart enough to make such an effort, what do you think QPW and Mont. and Spade would say if I compiled the same sort of "test?"
Yeah, this type of stuff.


You are trying to be a troll tk but you are being trolled by a troll who targets trolls. Gain 80+ IQ points and you can try this as well some day. Also, you will drool less.

All the best.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:35 PM   #9739
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
I've explained my personal motivations before. I'm a scientist. I'm also a member of skeptics organizations. I'm a science fair judge. Etc. If you haven't picked up on the pattern, it's important to me to promote sound, skeptical reasoning skills. This includes important things like being able to discern crackpot medicine from the genuine article. But it's a generic skill you can apply to almost anything. Seeing how to apply the skills here would allow a person to apply them to all areas of their lives.

And it's not the tinfoil hat wearing people reading this thread I expect to suddenly convert. It's the lurkers reading it I hope learn the underlying scientific methods for tested hypothesis to sift theories to determine truth from nonsense. And that IS something I am quite pationate about, enough to volunteer a lot of my time working on.

Short version: it's far more important to me that people learn how to use skeptical reasoning skills when confronting a questionable assertion then coming to a particular belief about the trustworthiness of online poker dealing.
So you're a scientist that promotes reasoning skills! Oh this is amazing! I've been looking for scientists all over the world that just so happen to dedicate their time defending internet poker. Thank God one turned up.

I'm also a scientist that seeks truth and enjoys logic. I'm having a lot of issues with the truth and your logic. Let me explain. Major poker sites (UB/AP) have already been caught cheating their customers. How were they allowed to do this? Well, there happens to be no regulation of these offshore companies at all! Now, which is more likely to happen when there is no regulation and a lot of money involved?

Two things..
1) The owners, employees, and everybody involved in pokerstars and fulltilt regulate themselves and run an honest operation. They even have team meetings every morning and read ethics codes and remind everybody that even though nobody is watching them, they remain honest. Forget the fact that this goes against the instrinsic human condition (greed, power, etc.)

or...

2) There are a lot of shady thing going on with these companies, including cheating their players. After all, UB/AP proved that they could do it and still operate. I mean, the customers are a bunch of degenerate gamblers anyways right? It doesn't have to be a consistently rigged deal. There are many ways to cheat their customers other than consistently rigging a deal. If you can have employee's take down the Sunday million, why not? That's one less honest customer taking money and more for your company. You win two-fold. You now have the degenerate donkey's giving you rake and you still get to keep the main prize in the large tournaments!!

Did you know that one rigged deal that forces a customer to lose a lot of money wouldn't even show up on your million hand sample size? In fact, the larger the sample, the less we'd notice any rigging at all.

So, if there were a way to rig a hand every now and then, explain to me how that would show up in a large sample size? I haven't even touched on superusing accounts. Why would I be ******ed to assume that superusing only happens at UB/AP?

Please enlighten me scientist. I seek truth like you do!
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:35 PM   #9740
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Nah, in this thread I am essentially a troll with a target of of paranoid and dumb people because their reactions can be so much more entertaining and random if you give them enough space and time to speak their "mind."

Look at your past dozen posts, they are all over the place. Conspiracies, name calling, calling people pathetic for posting so much in this thread as you post endlessly in this thread.

I give people like spade and Aaron and Josem etc. props for trying to be rational and sane with you guys, I just like winding you guys up and watching how you dance about after.

I tried it in the 9/11 thread but I met my match because I vastly underestimated how insane the people were in that thread (both sides) and encouraging them to speak about thermite devices and royal bloodlines was not even needed, it just distracted them from the even crazier ramble they were doing anyway.

I learned my lesson, so for my message board hobby I stick here with much simpler riggedology folk, and see what new creative theory will hatch next.



Yeah, this type of stuff.


You are trying to be a troll tk but you are being trolled by a troll who targets trolls. Gain 80+ IQ points and you can try this as well some day. Also, you will drool less.

All the best.
"Tryke," What is wrong with drooling? This isn't the 9/11 thread my friend.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:36 PM   #9741
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Re: Merge Gaming Network

This is pure BS. DaBadGuy has won a truckload of money on merge. DaBadGuy thinks you must just be a really bad poker player because merge is not rigged.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:44 PM   #9742
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
What is wrong with drooling?
Guess that is a matter of perspective, but if you enjoy it then good for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
This isn't the 9/11 thread my friend.
I know. Riggedologists like you are much easier targets to get the desired reactions. Call it proper thread selection. I tried moving up in thread stakes but I was not ready for what the game was. Spade got his butt handed to him as well.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:47 PM   #9743
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Re: Merge Gaming Network

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Originally Posted by VVinner View Post
I strongly believe all the Merge Gaming sites are rigged. Does anyone else think this?
Fail.
Its not rigged, u might just play bad then.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:12 PM   #9744
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
So you're a scientist that promotes reasoning skills!
Which is a lot like finding vegetarians who dislike eating meat.

Quote:
Oh this is amazing!
Not as amazing as you seem to think.

Quote:
I've been looking for scientists all over the world that just so happen to dedicate their time defending internet poker. Thank God one turned up.
Where?!?

Quote:
I'm also a scientist that seeks truth and enjoys logic.
Great. What disiplines?

Quote:
I'm having a lot of issues with the truth and your logic. Let me explain.
This is a promise broken. Your continued post failed to ever address any logic I've ever used.

Quote:
Major poker sites (UB/AP) have already been caught cheating their customers.
By methodologies suggested and used here.

Quote:
How were they allowed to do this? Well, there happens to be no regulation of these offshore companies at all!
False assertion.

Quote:
Now, which is more likely to happen when there is no regulation and a lot of money involved?

Two things..
1) The owners, employees, and everybody involved in pokerstars and fulltilt regulate themselves and run an honest operation. They even have team meetings every morning and read ethics codes and remind everybody that even though nobody is watching them, they remain honest. Forget the fact that this goes against the instrinsic human condition (greed, power, etc.)

or...

2) There are a lot of shady thing going on with these companies, including cheating their players. After all, UB/AP proved that they could do it and still operate. I mean, the customers are a bunch of degenerate gamblers anyways right? It doesn't have to be a consistently rigged deal. There are many ways to cheat their customers other than consistently rigging a deal. If you can have employee's take down the Sunday million, why not? That's one less honest customer taking money and more for your company. You win two-fold. You now have the degenerate donkey's giving you rake and you still get to keep the main prize in the large tournaments!!
False dichotomy fallacy.

Quote:
Did you know that one rigged deal that forces a customer to lose a lot of money wouldn't even show up on your million hand sample size? In fact, the larger the sample, the less we'd notice any rigging at all.

So, if there were a way to rig a hand every now and then, explain to me how that would show up in a large sample size?
We've addressed the fact but a few days ago that the more subtle the variation from a fair deal the larger the database required to detect it. That's a given. It's equally true that the more subtle the variation from a fair deal the less advantage anyone has to gain from varying from a fair deal.

Quote:
I haven't even touched on superusing accounts.
You realize the point of using such a linguistic mechinism for effect is completely defeated if you then go on to actually mention the very topic you haven't touched on, right?

Quote:
Why would I be ******ed to assume that superusing only happens at UB/AP?
No, I guess you don't.

Quote:
Please enlighten me scientist. I seek truth like you do!
Somehow I do not believe that you do.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:36 PM   #9745
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

AaronT,

You have not provided one good reason why I should trust these poker sites. On the other hand, I've given you many examples of why we shouldn't. These sites were "regulated" by the KGC, which we now know was merely a rubber stamp. The KGC basically charged these sites money to use their servers on an Indian reservation which happened to rest above a major internet connection to the United States. If the regulatory body which oversees your operations is making money hand over fist because you exist, why the hell would they ever do anything to cause you not to exist. I also would like to start my own company and regulate it myself. It sounds very profitable.

Please reason with me Mr. Scientist. Let us wax philosophical about the logic of ignoring the previous transgressions and moving forward to a bright new day where we relinquish logic and reasoning while blindly trusting offshore, unregulated, money laundering, mafia controlled businesses, errrr, I mean, internet pokers.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:36 PM   #9746
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

When I post any data, it will include source code and the data source, and it will be reproducible by anyone that wants to go to the trouble. I'll just post links here and publish it elsewhere.

And yes, I'll take the grand to give up my 1040. My work is not remotely related to the poker biz.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:37 PM   #9747
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Nah not rigged.
But poker stars is something else. I dont get any hands to play, tend to fall asleep playing the tournaments. Its not normal to play for 3 hours(online) in a tournament and not get dealt a big hand. Eventually I push with short stack and double up. Mostly I end up barley placing, Rarely ever cash big.
Factor in the tight play on stars and the lack of playing big hands, seems like a coin flip. Who actually cashes big? ah hah and now you have this thread... "poker is rigged" ..... Most likely not
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:48 PM   #9748
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Re: Merge Gaming Network

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Originally Posted by Circadux View Post
Fail.
Its not rigged, u might just play bad then.
It's rigged in my favor.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:58 PM   #9749
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies View Post
AaronT,

You have not provided one good reason why I should trust these poker sites. On the other hand, I've given you many examples of why we shouldn't. These sites were "regulated" by the KGC, which we now know was merely a rubber stamp. The KGC basically charged these sites money to use their servers on an Indian reservation which happened to rest above a major internet connection to the United States. If the regulatory body which oversees your operations is making money hand over fist because you exist, why the hell would they ever do anything to cause you not to exist. I also would like to start my own company and regulate it myself. It sounds very profitable.

Please reason with me Mr. Scientist. Let us wax philosophical about the logic of ignoring the previous transgressions and moving forward to a bright new day where we relinquish logic and reasoning while blindly trusting offshore, unregulated, money laundering, mafia controlled businesses, errrr, I mean, internet pokers.

Which sites are you referring to?

Also, for a bit I thought you were kinda normal, but just concerned. However when you went on your "mafia controlled", "money laundering" rant at the end I realized you probably aren't all there.
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:00 PM   #9750
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Guess that is a matter of perspective, but if you enjoy it then good for you.




I know. Riggedologists like you are much easier targets to get the desired reactions. Call it proper thread selection. I tried moving up in thread stakes but I was not ready for what the game was. Spade got his butt handed to him as well.
On a friendly note, I LoL'd so hard reading this one...Seriously, LoL
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