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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:04 PM   #9651
smithcommajohn
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I highly doubt anyone posting here is being paid by any poker site to say that online poker isn't rigged.

If I were running poker site XYZ and was trying to be devious, I would supply my "shill" with information to post about XYZ only and how it's totally on the up and up. If I were so shady, I'd even supply misleading "evidence" to support said claim, so my "shill" could come into the room and state something like:

Quote:
I can't speak for the other sites, but at XYZ, I have played over 2 million hands and here's what I found out. AA has showed up 10,013 times out of 2,200,000 hands. etc. etc. etc. and I've concluded that everything is hitting right where expected and the chances of a rigged deal are less than 1%.
I'd supply the post with so much complete data it would be hard to refute by anyone. My point is, I have not seen anyone post something like this (maybe I missed something).

Incidentally, if someone did post something like that, would you believe it? Information or misinformation? Again we would see people on both sides of the fence. An endless dichotomy.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:04 PM   #9652
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
but as always, one bad beat and there goes all the trust.
This is what I don't get. Taking you at your word (this is the internet afterall!) You are in your 70s and have been playing poker for a good chunk of those years: home games, casinos, backrooms, internet, etc. By now, if you've played as much as you've hinted at, you should have a fairly good understanding of the game, and at a minimum, a good feel for the strange things that can happy during a hand.

Then you go and say something like: "one bad beat and there goes all the trust." I don't get that. If you've played as much as you say you have, then you understand that bad beats are part of the game. You also understand that without bad beats no one would really make a profit in poker, because all the fish would stop playing.

You seem like a nice guy, and if I understand your most recent posts, you are less sure now that you have seen rigging going on.

I would recommend you get a program like pokertracker or Holdem Manager (search google, very easy to find) where you can track all your hands (not play money hands, I think, but all real money hands.) They each have free trials. You'll get a much better picture of what you are actually being dealt. If you're the kind of person I think you are, you'll actually get a kick out of analyzing the data.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:44 PM   #9653
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Another idea, which I posted several posting ago. Have the RNG log of what cards are received for what table, plus the log from the software who delivers the cards to that table. Be public domain, where if I wanted to check if the cards been changed from the RNG to the table, it would show up on the two logs.
Well, the hand histories represent this.
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Originally Posted by burden2 View Post
That definition of shill you cited is about accurate. Those who appear to be shills in this thread are the ones who post here so frequently and so in depth you would swear someone was paying them to do it. I mean it is rare to find those with such undying motivation in such a boring stalemate of a cause. It is simply not human nature.
You know, everything you wrote above applies to people who think online poker is rigged, too.

As discussed in this thread repeatedly, I work for an online poker, and even I only post in my spare time. FWIW, my employer would be quite happy for me to not participate: I certainly don't get remunerated for doing so.

(Turn pro at posting on 2p2 sounds like a better task for MicroBob or someone)
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:47 PM   #9654
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Obviously there are paid people posting here.
Who?

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I would like to know where I can find the database analisys of the ALL IN PRE FLOP situations in NLHE from the last 5 years concerning the Pokerstars, party poker and full tilt poker.

Couldnt find it on their homepages.
PokerStars will provide you with this data (in the form of your own hand histories) to compile the analysis that you want to.

I tried getting my hand histories from the other sites that I have played at, and was broadly unsuccessful. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:49 PM   #9655
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
Incidentally, if someone did post something like that, would you believe it? Information or misinformation? Again we would see people on both sides of the fence. An endless dichotomy.
A pretty reasonable test of credibility of science is to require that tests be repeatable: eg, if you claimed you made something move faster than light, people would request proof by providing a methodology that was repeatable.

The same thing applies here to people who claim to have evidence on this issue.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:04 PM   #9656
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
I highly doubt anyone posting here is being paid by any poker site to say that online poker isn't rigged.
I highly doubt that.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:13 PM   #9657
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
This is what I don't get. Taking you at your word (this is the internet afterall!) You are in your 70s and have been playing poker for a good chunk of those years: home games, casinos, backrooms, internet, etc. By now, if you've played as much as you've hinted at, you should have a fairly good understanding of the game, and at a minimum, a good feel for the strange things that can happy during a hand.

Then you go and say something like: "one bad beat and there goes all the trust." I don't get that. If you've played as much as you say you have, then you understand that bad beats are part of the game. You also understand that without bad beats no one would really make a profit in poker, because all the fish would stop playing.

You seem like a nice guy, and if I understand your most recent posts, you are less sure now that you have seen rigging going on.

I would recommend you get a program like pokertracker or Holdem Manager (search google, very easy to find) where you can track all your hands (not play money hands, I think, but all real money hands.) They each have free trials. You'll get a much better picture of what you are actually being dealt. If you're the kind of person I think you are, you'll actually get a kick out of analyzing the data.
I play with "older" people (I'm almost 37) ever day. This is not uncommon. It's called griping.. or bitching. They get upset easily or at least act like they do. And believe me, just because someone has played poker for a very long time doesn't mean they truly understand what's going on. I play a lot of these older guys and wonder how sometimes they can make the most fundamental mistakes.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:47 PM   #9658
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
I would like to know where I can find the database analisys of the ALL IN PRE FLOP situations in NLHE from the last 5 years concerning the Pokerstars, party poker and full tilt poker.

Couldnt find it on their homepages.


Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
PokerStars will provide you with this data (in the form of your own hand histories) to compile the analysis that you want to.

I tried getting my hand histories from the other sites that I have played at, and was broadly unsuccessful. Your mileage may vary.
For what it's worth, Josem personally helped me get all my hand histories from PokerStars a few days ago. I imported them immediately into Holdem Manager and am now happily berating myself over my play.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:13 PM   #9659
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Well, the hand histories represent this.
I'm afraid I totally disagree on your theory. Hand Histories, at least the hand histories on my computer does not offer any help. Why, it does not list pocket cards that are folded. So how can you calculate what cards are sent to the table.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:23 PM   #9660
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
This is what I don't get. Taking you at your word (this is the internet afterall!) You are in your 70s and have been playing poker for a good chunk of those years: home games, casinos, backrooms, internet, etc. By now, if you've played as much as you've hinted at, you should have a fairly good understanding of the game, and at a minimum, a good feel for the strange things that can happy during a hand.

Then you go and say something like: "one bad beat and there goes all the trust." I don't get that. If you've played as much as you say you have, then you understand that bad beats are part of the game. You also understand that without bad beats no one would really make a profit in poker, because all the fish would stop playing.

You seem like a nice guy, and if I understand your most recent posts, you are less sure now that you have seen rigging going on.

I would recommend you get a program like pokertracker or Holdem Manager (search google, very easy to find) where you can track all your hands (not play money hands, I think, but all real money hands.) They each have free trials. You'll get a much better picture of what you are actually being dealt. If you're the kind of person I think you are, you'll actually get a kick out of analyzing the data.
No I think you got me wrong, regarding the statement, "one bad beat and there goes all the trust." I may have used the wrong language.

Anyway, there is a very much different in what I call having the second best hand and a bad beat. Get drawn out and ending up with a second best hand is very common. Bad beats, to me, is someone calling and raising with nothing but rags, and takes the pot. This is when the rodden smell start to drift around the table of a possible setup.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:26 PM   #9661
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
I'm afraid I totally disagree on your theory. Hand Histories, at least the hand histories on my computer does not offer any help. Why, it does not list pocket cards that are folded. So how can you calculate what cards are sent to the table.
I think one of us has a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Hand histories are a record of the cards that are dealt. If you fold your hand, that is still recorded in the hand history.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:43 PM   #9662
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I am kind of rooting for this moose thing to be a level, it is actually not a bad one at this point if it is one. If it is just an actual elderly gentleman a tad out of touch who cannot really follow a flow of a conversation and asks really outdated, confused questions then that is sort of sweet but hardly as fun.

Kind of nice to see a lot of the "shills" taking him seriously in case he is genuine, none of the riggedolosigsts are even talking to the fellow.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:11 PM   #9663
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
No I think you got me wrong, regarding the statement, "one bad beat and there goes all the trust." I may have used the wrong language.

Anyway, there is a very much different in what I call having the second best hand and a bad beat. Get drawn out and ending up with a second best hand is very common. Bad beats, to me, is someone calling and raising with nothing but rags, and takes the pot. This is when the rodden smell start to drift around the table of a possible setup.
Because what could be less suspicious than playing crap and beating a good hand?

Not saying this is necessarily true of yourself, but I've noticed the "feel" based players tend to have nooooooo idea what the math of certain matchups is, and think that they're much farther ahead than they really are, if at all. I remember getting all in on a x flop with AK against pocket queens, and having the dude go off on me in chat, saying I was an idiot going all in with just a draw and that he was 85-90% to win when the money went in. I was actually juuuuuust slightly ahead. That's a 35-40% difference in what he thought and what the actual math was.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:38 PM   #9664
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

But what can I do with hand histories I dont know how to run a stats analsys, dont have this kind of specialized knowneldge.

What amazes me is that this kind of analisys is not in the homepage of the poker rooms. If they claim to run a fair game why they do not post these kind of stats analisys and keep it easily accessible for any customer that is thinking in depositing money in their room?


If I had a poker room I would run these kind of analisys in a regular basis in post it in the homepage.

What they do? They give you the hand histories so you can run the stat analisys lol.....What kind of bussiness is that? This is at least suspicious.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:45 PM   #9665
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
But what can I do with hand histories I dont know how to run a stats analsys, dont have this kind of specialized knowneldge.

What amazes me is that this kind of analisys is not in the homepage of the poker rooms. If they claim to run a fair game why they do not post these kind of stats analisys and keep it easily accessible for any customer that is thinking in depositing money in their room?


If I had a poker room I would run these kind of analisys in a regular basis in post it in the homepage.

What they do? They give you the hand histories so you can run the stat analisys lol.....What kind of bussiness is that? This is at least suspicious.
No, what's suspicious is a site like Pitbull NOT giving out the handhistories. Do you see the difference?

Your post is so ridiculous its beyond comprehension. Just because YOU don't know how to do a stats analysis doesn't mean that many people don't, or that you can't learn how to, or pay someone to do it. How is that suspicious?
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:26 PM   #9666
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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No, what's suspicious is a site like Pitbull NOT giving out the handhistories. Do you see the difference?

Your post is so ridiculous its beyond comprehension. Just because YOU don't know how to do a stats analysis doesn't mean that many people don't, or that you can't learn how to, or pay someone to do it. How is that suspicious?
Hmmm....you mean I have to pay someone to make sure their site is fair??

Good reasoning......New marketing aproach, make your customer do your job and save your money....pathetic....
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:34 PM   #9667
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Hmmm....you mean I have to pay someone to make sure their site is fair??

Good reasoning......New marketing aproach, make your customer do your job and save your money....pathetic....
What kind of stats would you have them show you? Would you believe them no matter what they produced?
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:47 PM   #9668
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
But what can I do with hand histories I dont know how to run a stats analsys, dont have this kind of specialized knowneldge.

What amazes me is that this kind of analisys is not in the homepage of the poker rooms. If they claim to run a fair game why they do not post these kind of stats analisys and keep it easily accessible for any customer that is thinking in depositing money in their room?
Yeah, let's teach fish to review their play using a tracker. Brilliant.
Quote:
If I had a poker room I would run these kind of analisys in a regular basis in post it in the homepage.
And none of the rigtards would believe it, so you'd just be wasting bandwidth.
Quote:
What they do? They give you the hand histories so you can run the stat analisys lol.....What kind of bussiness is that? This is at least suspicious.
Yeah, pretty suspicious to give you all the evidence you need to figure out whether or not you're being scammed.

Someone better than me at making PT3 filters must exist. I know Josem talked about making some for HEM, but so far no one has said what he should try and test for.

Saying "Oh dirp, I don't know how to do it, therefore it's impossible" is a cop out, though.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:50 PM   #9669
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
What kind of stats would you have them show you? Would you believe them no matter what they produced?
To begin with I would like to see all the ALL IN PREFLOP situations EV checked in the last year in NLHE.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:52 PM   #9670
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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To begin with I would like to see all the ALL IN PREFLOP situations EV checked in the last year in NLHE.
Ok, so they do that and post a graph: would you believe it?
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:58 PM   #9671
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Ok, so they do that and post a graph: would you believe it?
If together they post the hand historis used with every player nickname included its a good start.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:59 PM   #9672
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
But what can I do with hand histories I dont know how to run a stats analsys, dont have this kind of specialized knowneldge.

What amazes me is that this kind of analisys is not in the homepage of the poker rooms. If they claim to run a fair game why they do not post these kind of stats analisys and keep it easily accessible for any customer that is thinking in depositing money in their room?


If I had a poker room I would run these kind of analisys in a regular basis in post it in the homepage.

What they do? They give you the hand histories so you can run the stat analisys lol.....What kind of bussiness is that? This is at least suspicious.
A couple of weeks ago, I posted in this thread asking for details of what sort of statistical analsysis people would like to be able to perform on this stuff.

I'd like to generate a Hold'em Manager report that you can conduct on your own hand histories - free of any interference from the relevant poker site.

What would you like tested?

Further, it makes no sense for the site to do the analysis themselves: the whole reason there is demand for the analysis is because you do not trust them. Therefore, it MUST be done by yourself (or some other third party) or it has no value.


It'd be really awesome if this discussion could progress at all: it's pretty frustratingly circular and hardly seems to develop.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:21 PM   #9673
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
To begin with I would like to see all the ALL IN PREFLOP situations EV checked in the last year in NLHE.
I heard somebody saying something about a sites RNG is independent from the actual poker site. In other words it's "contracted" out, Company X runs out the cards(RNG) and the site just displays them. Correct?
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:29 PM   #9674
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I feel it lacks character to have a second account on 2+2 just to post in this thread. I don't care what side your on. "It's not what you say, it's who said it."

"You have no marbles!"
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:57 PM   #9675
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I heard somebody saying something about a sites RNG is independent from the actual poker site. In other words it's "contracted" out, Company X runs out the cards(RNG) and the site just displays them. Correct?
It's the first time I've ever heard that idea.

I guess sites that are part of a "network" have one RNG system that is probably owned indepedently of the separate player-facing brands.
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I feel it lacks character to have a second account on 2+2 just to post in this thread. I don't care what side your on. "It's not what you say, it's who said it."

"You have no marbles!"
Is this in reference to anyone in particular?
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