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10-20-2009, 09:03 PM   #9626
Flipu
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by spadebidder Ultimate Bet SnG levels - 10/12 minutes each, 1500 starting stack (up to \$20, larger stacks for higher stakes) Full Tilt SnG levels - 6 minutes each, 1500 starting stack Ultimate Bet turbo SnG levels - 5 minutes each, 1500 starting stack Full Tilt turbo SnG levels - 3 minutes each, 1500 starting stack On top of that, blind structure is different at UB than FT. UB blind structures. FT blind structures. There are formulas to use the blind structure and calculate the average finish times. I'd compare them using Snyder's blind-off time calculation. You need a spreadsheet to do it, but it's on his web site and the formulas are in his book. You can also just calculate which blind level will put the total chips at 30 blinds, and multiply that by the level time. That's used for MTTs but might work for a SnG, I haven't tried it.

Now that is a refreshingly helpful reply. Saved me the time to research it myself, which i obviosuly don't care enough to actually do. Which I guess is what these sites are for, information.
Thank you.
Still I have seen very few 1 outers since swapping over to UB. approx 50 sng's, and about 10 hours of cash games. but like I said have only been on UB for a couple of weeks, time will tell.

 10-20-2009, 09:18 PM #9627 spadebidder Actually Shows Proof     Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: This looks interesting. Posts: 7,906 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition I did the calc for you in my edit. As for 1-outers, look up selective memory, sample size, and variance.
10-20-2009, 10:32 PM   #9628
Monteroy
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Flipu Now that is a refreshingly helpful reply. Saved me the time to research it myself, which i obviosuly don't care enough to actually do. Which I guess is what these sites are for, information..
The replies you get often are related to the style in which you ask the question. You did what lots of riggedologists do - you created a conspiracy when none existed.

While my initial sarcasm caused you to start posting frustrated replies to yourself until you got tired, the reality is that the very common sense information that is needed to realize why they take different times on different sites was within my post.

They take different amount of times because the structures are totally different. Spade said it in a nicer way because he is usually nicer (until someone pushes him over the edge), but even his post basically said "well, duh."

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Flipu Still I have seen very few 1 outers since swapping over to UB. approx 50 sng's, and about 10 hours of cash games. but like I said have only been on UB for a couple of weeks, time will tell.
Trying the new more polite route - what reply do you think is even possible to this without someone basically rolling their eyes? We already explained how 10 minutes blinds are longer than 5 minute blinds, how do we handle this? Spade's nice enough to politely suggest selective memory and all the other common mistakes riggedologists make for the 1000th time in this thread, but not all of us are so nice.

Welcome to the real world filled with 1 outers and sarcasm.

 10-20-2009, 10:44 PM #9629 spadebidder Actually Shows Proof     Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: This looks interesting. Posts: 7,906 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Incidentally, what the hell is a 1-outer, other than quads or a closed-end straight flush? I suppose there would be some combinations where you hold one of the villain's cards too, but pretty rare. Last edited by spadebidder; 10-20-2009 at 10:55 PM.
 10-20-2009, 11:15 PM #9630 otatop Carpal \'Tunnel   Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: unstuckpolitics.com Posts: 12,727 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition I'm also curious to know what Flipu's sample at FTP is like.
 10-20-2009, 11:40 PM #9631 old_moose enthusiast   Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 81 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition This debate is getting to be more fun, than playing poker. I know I have to get more educated, because some posting I read, I still don't get the complete drift. One word I see quite often, is "shill or shills" I have looked it up in all of my dictionary and there is no such word. I do recall the word being used and was connected to the carnival. The ones which traveled town to town, they always had a midway. With crown and anchor, under and over, bingo and other games. We as teenagers, always enjoyed the thrill of betting our dimes and quarters. The older folks, always said, "beware them games are rigged." I don't know if anyone of these games operators ever got caught. The shill was the person who was with the carnival, but never told anyone. His job was to excite the crowd, get them going, make them spend money was the top priority. It was quite a concept, why would this kind of concept not move up the years to 2000 plus and enter into the Internet environment. It must be here. I hope I'm correct regarding the meaning of "shills." The problem why this concept might not work today. It been around to long, people are to wise. And I believe people have a wider view, and you got to respect their views. Nobody can change my mind regarding the rigging of software issue. Because, 1)Software is used, software will make the computer do what the writer has entered, software can be hacked, software can't be trusted. 2)Creed of people to try to build a financial empire, the creed for money is one of the worse evils in the world, and software is one of the weapons that can build a financial empire and fast too. Because I'm on the other side of the fence, does not give me the right to abuse another poster. I'm here to entertain myself and not to make enemy. Good luck all.
10-20-2009, 11:49 PM   #9632
AaronT
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by old_moose 1)Software is used, software will make the computer do what the writer has entered, software can be hacked, software can't be trusted.
You do know that software controls things such as:

1) The banking system.
2) The hospital system.
3) Weapons systems (including nuclear)
4) Aircraft flight control systems.
5) Your car's engine and traction control systems.
6) The power grid.
7) The telecommunications system.
8) Emergency response and dispatch systems.

(I'm personally involved in a few of the above to varying degrees.)

Like it or not you do trust your very life to software frequently, sometimes more directly than others. I've been involved in conversations where software bugs were accused of playing a role in killing a person.

So, you see, I just don't buy the story that you'd don't trust the system because it involves software. That you trust your very life to systems involving software demonstrates otherwise to me.

10-20-2009, 11:55 PM   #9633
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AaronT So, you see, I just don't buy the story that you'd don't trust the system because it involves software. That you trust your very life to systems involving software demonstrates otherwise to me.
Even if he believes it, there is no way any amount of oversight can prevent fiddling the software. What you trust is the output of the software, which can be observed and analysed to whatever degree you want to do. You also have some degree of trust based on the fact that the vast majority of large companies operate in the best interest of their customers and shareholders, and are constrained by business logic from taking foolish risks that could put them out of business. It's in their best interest to run a fair game. The Las Vegas mob learned that lesson 30 or 40 years ago, and they have the most scrupulously honest casino games in the world now. They don't shoot the cash cow, and if they want to cheat they do it on taxes and skim, not by cheating their customers.

10-21-2009, 12:01 AM   #9634
AaronT
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by spadebidder Even if he believes it, there is no way any amount of oversight can prevent fiddling the software. What you trust is the output of the software, which can be observed and analysed to whatever degree you want to do. You also have some degree of trust based on the fact that the vast majority of large companies operate in the best interest of their customers and shareholders, and are constrained by business logic from taking foolish risks that could put them out of business. It's in their best interest to run a fair game. The Las Vegas mob learned that lesson 30 or 40 years ago, and they have the most scrupulously honest casino games in the world now. They don't shoot the cash cow, and if they want to cheat they do it on taxes and skim, not by cheating their customers.
Oh, I agree with you, that what you check is the output. You don't blindly trust software because it's software. That would be insane. I'm merely stating that it's insane to distrust something because it includes a software component.

It's the bold assertion "software can't be trusted" I took an issue with. Maybe it's because my very livelihood depends on that being generically false. And I stand by my position that even he does not believe his own assertion (or at least if he did, he does not act consistantly with his beliefs.)

10-21-2009, 12:46 AM   #9635
old_moose
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AaronT A) Of course they still have the source code laying around. How else do you think they release new versions and patches? B) You've never heard of a decompiler? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompiler You know WAY less about Computer Science then you think you do. Do not try to debate things like compilation and RNGs on this board. You are up against actual computer scientists like myself. You are way over your head, sir. C) Decompliers are not new. The first one was developed in 1960: http://www.program-transformation.or...Decompilation1
Let me apologize and say, I'm sorry if I opened a gate, which I shouldn't have. I didn't know it was private territory. Please forgive me.
For me the end results was excellent, because now I know what you are and you must have the answers to some mis-understanding things regarding RNG. I know who to ask on some puzzling questions I have no answer for.
I also must thank you for placing the links regarding decompiling. Like I said I'm way behind times, people giving me links, sure helps to bring me up to date. Thank You. In 1992, I went back to school, re Computer Course. One of the lesson, was to make a random generator (Note; it was not call that, I forget what it was called) We used basic in them days and it was quite simple. You would laugh your head off at this invention, here I will show you.

Ask the computer for the date, time in numerals, add them together, then times itself. If cards where required, divide by 52, the remainder was the number for the card, and the answer was added to the other number and it all started over again. I pass on it. Of course there would have to be a scale, 1 to 13 was spades, 14 to 26 was hearts and so on.

The problem with this glories piece of invented software, all you needed was a calender, watch and calculator and you could figure it out yourself. Boy today what change, I would never begin to understand it. I want to declare myself again, I do not believe you can rig the RNG, it is solid.

 10-21-2009, 12:49 AM #9636 old_moose enthusiast   Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 81 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition To AaronT and spadebidder; Good work boys, you are both making points and interesting to read.
10-21-2009, 01:08 AM   #9637
old_moose
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Re: Is Full Tilt Poker rigged?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ibluffoldladies Asking this question on this message board is like me walking into a church and asking if God is real. What do you think the answer will be?
That well put Mom, it took me second or so, to grasp what you have written
perfect Mom. I wonder what the answer would be???

10-21-2009, 01:40 AM   #9638
old_moose
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Arouet I see what you did there.... Old Moose: have you decided to actually read the whole thread yet, or do you expect the "protectors" to write it all out again just for you so you won't think they're "yeller" in answering your accusations?
Hey I'm still working on it. The thing is, poker somebody has to lose before somebody can win. I'm not real interested in hearing about people getting beat because of a drawout. (drawout, old term like drawing out a pair of aces because I hit three twos) Drawouts is as common as stars in the sky.

I got into this, not because I lost a few dollars at Full Tilt, rather it because I can't understand how the governing body for the Internet, allow the usage of software to deal cards. Software which can be altered by just a few statements. Boy, and to hear about the poor people blowing their hard earned cash for some entertainment. Strange, but being old, one thing I have gained is a heart. One posting I read, guy blew 35 thousand, now looking for some way to sue the site.

One feeling I know quite a bit about, is having a nice piece of change, then one day, reaching in the pocket and it is empty. And the saddest of knowing, you idiot, "you know what you could have done with that money." You carry these feeling with you until death. Many times in my life I have woke up with no money in the pocket, therefore I feel heart broken for the lossers.

Nice talking to you

Last edited by old_moose; 10-21-2009 at 01:53 AM.

10-21-2009, 05:56 AM   #9639
Pyromantha
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by old_moose I got into this, not because I lost a few dollars at Full Tilt, rather it because I can't understand how the governing body for the Internet, allow the usage of software to deal cards. Software which can be altered by just a few statements. Boy, and to hear about the poor people blowing their hard earned cash for some entertainment. Strange, but being old, one thing I have gained is a heart. One posting I read, guy blew 35 thousand, now looking for some way to sue the site.
There is no 'governing body for the internet', unless you mean something like ICANN who manage domain names, but still have nothing to do with the content of the sites.

I don't understand what you think the other practical option is apart from 'using software to deal cards', in an online game? Note that several live casinos also use software to deal the cards.

 10-21-2009, 11:52 AM #9640 Mooseknuckle journeyman   Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 397 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition those who think poker is rigged = those who suck/lose money Those who do not = those who win/make money if you cant endure the variance and swings GTFO
10-21-2009, 02:24 PM   #9641
old_moose
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pyromantha There is no 'governing body for the internet', unless you mean something like ICANN who manage domain names, but still have nothing to do with the content of the sites. I don't understand what you think the other practical option is apart from 'using software to deal cards', in an online game? Note that several live casinos also use software to deal the cards.

Morning;

Thanks for cluing me in, regarding there is no "governing body for the internet." I guess I was confused, because I seen this site at http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx. My thoughts were, this must be a governing body or regulators for the Internet. Reading further this morning, I now find, no it's not a governing body but an agreement between the FBI and a couple of other parties, to report crimes on the Internet. This puts my thinking one step backwards.

This brings up the subject, "Do you think there should be a regulating body or watchdog for the Internet? Something that controls the contents on the Internet.

Another thought jumped into my head. If there is controlling, how deep will it go? Will the sex, drugs and freedom of speech sites get kicked in the behind? If somebody wants to go and look at some lady without clothes, that their business. This freedom has to be kept in place. The site above, http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx I quickly thumbed though the pages, lots of question, all kinds leaning to scams by email, investment frauds etc. Nothing on rigged software or cheating at poker games.

Another idea, which I posted several posting ago. Have the RNG log of what cards are received for what table, plus the log from the software who delivers the cards to that table. Be public domain, where if I wanted to check if the cards been changed from the RNG to the table, it would show up on the two logs.

The only thing against this idea, it breaks the one great rule of poker. Which is, "You must pay to see a opponents cards." Example if I could download the above logs, I could check and see each opponents pockets cards, and find out, if I was bluffed or made a good folded.

I don't see any results that may work, better let the younger generation figure it out. Yes you are right, without software how are you going to have a game. One day someone will make an answer, until then, just spend the money in the pub on beer and just talk about online poker.

Have a good day.

 10-21-2009, 02:28 PM #9642 toltec444 grinder   Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 496 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Why would a poker room superuser employee tell anyone what they are doing if they are part of it and are getting money from it. Why would someone tell us about the superbots? Do you think that anyone that is involved and is winning with it would go to the the police and say, please mister policeman take me to the jail because I rob money from players in this poker room. LOL You got to be kidding.
10-21-2009, 02:28 PM   #9643
burden2
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by old_moose This debate is getting to be more fun, than playing poker. I know I have to get more educated, because some posting I read, I still don't get the complete drift. One word I see quite often, is "shill or shills" I have looked it up in all of my dictionary and there is no such word. .
That definition of shill you cited is about accurate. Those who appear to be shills in this thread are the ones who post here so frequently and so in depth you would swear someone was paying them to do it. I mean it is rare to find those with such undying motivation in such a boring stalemate of a cause. It is simply not human nature.

10-21-2009, 02:52 PM   #9644
KingOfFelt
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by burden2 That definition of shill you cited is about accurate. Those who appear to be shills in this thread are the ones who post here so frequently and so in depth you would swear someone was paying them to do it. I mean it is rare to find those with such undying motivation in such a boring stalemate of a cause. It is simply not human nature.
Are you being paid by the NFL to post in all the NFL threads that you do? Could you please let me know what the NFL pays you to post? Thanks.

 10-21-2009, 02:57 PM #9645 toltec444 grinder   Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 496 re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Obviously there are paid people posting here. I would like to know where I can find the database analisys of the ALL IN PRE FLOP situations in NLHE from the last 5 years concerning the Pokerstars, party poker and full tilt poker. Couldnt find it on their homepages. Thanks
10-21-2009, 03:15 PM   #9646
Arouet
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by burden2 I mean it is rare to find those with such undying motivation in such a boring stalemate of a cause. It is simply not human nature.
The bolded is completely subjective and people are interested in this thread for a variety of reasons.

The long and short of it is, 2+2 is leisure time (read that work procrastination). Speaking for myself, I guess, we have a certain amount of time we want to spend on 2+2 and its really irrelevant what threads we choose to spend our time posting in. More time in this thread is less time in other threads, but why some of you care what threads people like to participate or that it must mean poeple are paid to do so is beyond me.

10-21-2009, 03:25 PM   #9647
tk1133
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Arouet The bolded is completely subjective and people are interested in this thread for a variety of reasons. The long and short of it is, 2+2 is leisure time (read that work procrastination). Speaking for myself, I guess, we have a certain amount of time we want to spend on 2+2 and its really irrelevant what threads we choose to spend our time posting in. More time in this thread is less time in other threads, but why some of you care what threads people like to participate or that it must mean poeple are paid to do so is beyond me.
No it's this thread....and the way it's done.

10-21-2009, 03:29 PM   #9648
Monteroy
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by toltec444 Why would a poker room superuser employee tell anyone what they are doing if they are part of it and are getting money from it. Why would someone tell us about the superbots?
Hundreds of rooms have shut down over the years, so guilt or a deal to not face any consequences if they tell on who did it would be the simple answers. Kind of like how lots of criminal stuff just like this gets revealed.

Some may just brag about it if they could prove it. Youtube is filled with dummies who did all sorts of illegal stuff and filmed it to show off.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by toltec444 Do you think that anyone that is involved and is winning with it would go to the the police and say, please mister policeman take me to the jail because I rob money from players in this poker room. LOL You got to be kidding.
No, but they might say "I have proof of a much bigger crime that even if you cannot prosecute easily will make you famous, can I trade that for a deal on my petty unrelated criminal charges I am under?

Lots of crime gets caught because lots of criminals talk for all sorts of reasons. This really that shocking a discovery?

10-21-2009, 03:38 PM   #9649
Arouet
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tk1133 No it's this thread....and the way it's done.
Spend some time in the politics forums, RGT, SMT, and you get all sorts of people spending copious amounts of time going deep into topics for no reason other than it's interesting to them.

And pay attention to the pre-merge threads where many more of the regular zoo posters post; the content is the same, they just don't choose to monitor this thread too much after.

If you actually paid more attention to the substance of what these "shills" are posting, you might actually be less suspicious, rather than just assuming its propaganda.

10-21-2009, 03:54 PM   #9650
old_moose
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AaronT You do know that software controls things such as: 1) The banking system. 2) The hospital system. 3) Weapons systems (including nuclear) 4) Aircraft flight control systems. 5) Your car's engine and traction control systems. 6) The power grid. 7) The telecommunications system. 8) Emergency response and dispatch systems.

You are going to score 100 plus for this one. Yes you are more than right. We get on planes and don't even think about the software being used. Doesn't even enter our minds. I guess why, it does not relate to money, only the bank one does. I've used my bank online for over 8 some years. I have not got any checks anymore, because I don't need them. Can pay the bills right online in minute. Yes and I do trust them. The reason for the trust is banks have a very clean taste, whereas poker does not.

Poker has also been a shaded game. This dates back as far as you can imagine. I can see the old western comboy towns, nothing to do but play poker. There were saloons, with poker game and the gambler. Sitting drink corn whiskey, waiting for the cowboys with their pay to come to town. With the urge to chase the ladies, drink and have fun and the very last, to try and beat the cards. Well it easy to see the ending, what the ladies and drinks left the cowboy for money, the gambler got it. But the cowboy could always go back to the bunkhouse, with plenty of sex and poker playing stories.

In my younger days, there were plenty of poker clubs. Besides that, many work projects had 1000 men working and the camps were out in the wild. There were blackjack and poker games going each night. Also on the go, was cheaters, sometime 3 or 4 people. one would be good in dumping coolers in the games, another dealing seconds. The first shot, was dumping the cooler in, because this got the marked cards on the table. It was refered to as, "dumping the juice in." Why because the cards were marked using a juice and other mixtures. Not all the gang, sat down to play. There was the staller, who would lean over the table to take a cigarette from a package. This hid the person from view long enough to dump the cooler in. No yes, these gangs were plentiful.

Another common trick, was the gang would all go to a club and get into the game. The clubs, marked cards were not possible. Because the cheats would use the Bee cards and the clubs would use plastic. There was no juice for the plastic cards. The only thing the gang did was dump coolers in. Dealing seconds with plastic cards was out of the picture, because of the design on the back.

The trick that was quite common and can be used on online poker is as follows. In the club, 4 or 5 people get playing at one table. They were partners, they had signals, one finger = call, two fingers = pass, 3 fingers = raise. The partners would trap the remaiming players and take their money. This no doult is done today on the online poker games using a cell phone.

So if you played poker, you had to have eyes in the back of your head. You could not trust a sole. Mostlikely, this would be the reason, one cannot trust software because I can not trust a real game with real players. I can start trusting the software, but as always, one bad beat and there goes all the trust.

Best and have fun.

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