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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-19-2009, 07:10 PM   #9576
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Yet you sit in an online game, don't see a dealer, don't see anybody's faces and you play, feeling safe.
But we see the cards dealt, and we analyse their frequency, and find that they are dealing fairly, randomly as we would expect.

In your example, you seem to think that because you see the cards shuffled in front of you, that it is legitimate. That is the wrong way to look at it: seeing the cards shuffled is no guarantee that it is done fairly.

The only way to determine the fairness of a shuffle is to look at the outcome. The fairness of the shuffle is purely judged by the results of the shuffle, which is there for anyone to look at (and has been posted in this thread repeatedly).
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:32 PM   #9577
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
Bob Smith just signed the petition, and he says something completely different than your post. wtf?
Yes I see what you mean, that totally weird. Because first I have never found anymore posting by Bob Smith on the Internet. The posting I copied and pasted is quite common across the Internet.
There is a slight suspicious indicator I notice right away. In the posting I copied, Bob Smith never called it Full Tilt but fulltilt, and most of time lower case letters where used, unless it was a start of a sentence.
The second thing, at the web site http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/FullTilt, you don't have to use your real name. I got by, by using old_moose.

Oh well, one day Bob Smith will come to the front, then can ask him direct about all posting.
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:34 PM   #9578
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Yes I see what you mean, that totally weird. Because first I have never found anymore posting by Bob Smith on the Internet. The posting I copied and pasted is quite common across the Internet.
There is a slight suspicious indicator I notice right away. In the posting I copied, Bob Smith never called it Full Tilt but fulltilt, and most of time lower case letters where used, unless it was a start of a sentence.
The second thing, at the web site http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/FullTilt, you don't have to use your real name. I got by, by using old_moose.

Oh well, one day Bob Smith will come to the front, then can ask him direct about all posting.
I plan on cornering Santa Claus one day with some questions, too.
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:36 PM   #9579
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
You are another lying liar that lies.

For two simple examples:

-I have repeatedly posted in here proof that rigging the flop/turn/river was impossible at PokerStars.

-Spadebidder has posted data that proves a fair distribution of cards on the flop.

You should stop lying. You should start being honest.
hey I would love to see them, steer me in the right direction.
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:42 PM   #9580
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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hey I would love to see them, steer me in the right direction.
Start with reading the thread.
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:47 PM   #9581
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Old moose: I've previously suggested that you read the entire thread, and that the arguments you are looking for are contained therein.

Your response is that no one has posted any arguments, and you've one.

Now, I'm 90% sure you're a level, and if you are, I'll admit you're a good one and pretty funny.

But if you are serious, then read the whole thread, ignore the filler, and focus on the substantive posts. There's a ton of information there on how to spot if rigging might be going on. It's much more complicated than you think. Not the rigging: that's the easy part, of course anyone can do it. The hard part is doing it in a manner that avoids detection; that is very hard to do, if its going to result in actually more profit for the site.

Then come back and join the discussion if you want.

First I'm quite new to boards, and still trying to understand the terminologies used. Therefore are you making reference to this thread? If not steer me to where you are refering too. As for this thread, I'm slowly adsorbing everyones postings. So far I got to page 5, found a lot of complaining regarding bum hands and people feeling it is rigged. There has been no real posting yet, that I would say, "Boy that one for the "NO" side of the debate. maybe it coming.

Best
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:56 PM   #9582
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
First I'm quite new to boards, and still trying to understand the terminologies used. Therefore are you making reference to this thread? If not steer me to where you are refering too. As for this thread, I'm slowly adsorbing everyones postings. So far I got to page 5, found a lot of complaining regarding bum hands and people feeling it is rigged. There has been no real posting yet, that I would say, "Boy that one for the "NO" side of the debate. maybe it coming.

Best
Does the fact that there has been no post yet proving that Lizard People exist support the argument that there are Lizard People?

Do you see why asking to prove the negative is horrible logic? The fact that millions of hands have been analyzed and not once has there been evidence of rigging is strong evidence in itself that there probably isn't rigging going on.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:08 PM   #9583
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
First I'm quite new to boards, and still trying to understand the terminologies used. Therefore are you making reference to this thread? If not steer me to where you are refering too. As for this thread, I'm slowly adsorbing everyones postings. So far I got to page 5, found a lot of complaining regarding bum hands and people feeling it is rigged. There has been no real posting yet, that I would say, "Boy that one for the "NO" side of the debate. maybe it coming.

Best
Yes, I am talking about this thread. What you need to understand, is that this thread is an amalgam thread: all the threads discussing rigged RNGs are thrown into this thread.

There is no question there is a lot of fluff/insults/humour. But there are a lot of diamonds in the rough. Keep reading, and you will have a much rounder view.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:26 PM   #9584
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
I totally agree with you. Boy this would sure stop some of the feeling regarding this topic.
You dont say? Good chap, would you perhaps know of any sites that have this "Real Deal" aspect?
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:12 PM   #9585
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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At the start the "Protectors" were strong and insulting, but now the only posting are people who now agree they are being "Had" playing online. One after another are posting their feeling and committing themselves to not playing online. I feel I have won.
wat.

Welcome to my ignore list. If you're not a troll (doubtful), you're more useless to try to discuss anything with than a brick wall. Enjoy using this as evidence of "protectors" insulting you.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:37 PM   #9586
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
ROFLMAO.

What were they expecting from the result?

I had to vote 'I just want to play'.
Oh, c'mon, how could you not vote for the last option? That would be the blank one.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:01 AM   #9587
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Do you see why asking to prove the negative is horrible logic? The fact that millions of hands have been analyzed and not once has there been evidence of rigging is strong evidence in itself that there probably isn't rigging going on.
I'm proud of you and you should get a pat on the back. Why a pat, because of the logic you used. Your logic is a good way to think, but there is a backlash. I hope I don't bore you because it long drawn out story.

For the top of the agenda, there will never be any solid enough evidence to convict anyone to start with. Why, unless somebody confesses under oath, who going to know if the software is rig or straight as an arrow.

The next thing that may happen, police raiding the servers on the island. This is about as doultful as there is humans on the moon. Besides, these people are smart and wise, they likely to have a real solid connection with the police, who love the extra cash that comes their way.
Anybody who as the experience of living in some of these foreign country, would nod their head and agree with me 150%.

Like I'm trying to explain, unless somebody confesses or the computers are grabbed and the software
downloaded. Nothing going to happen. Even if they did unload the computers, what good is it going to do. Now to explain the last sentence. The computers have software, but it in machine or object code. Therefore you can't de-compile it (This I know was true several years ago, but today they may have newer methods) so who going to read it to see if it is rigged. What they may do (police), is search the offices and grab the source code. This you can read and see if it is rigged.

But these people are not dumb, they making millions and they know, rigging the software is a crimial offense. Hence, if they are rigging the software, all they will do is, setup the rigging with all instructions, compile it. Run it on the computers, go back to the office and remove all the rigging commands, store until it need again. Or have two copies of the source code, one with the rigging command, another clean as the sheets on a bed. Store the rigging one, in total hiding, and display the clean one to everybody.

This debate reminds me of the baseball players scandal about taking pills or ???? Was there any conclusion to that scandal? I will be dead before the true answer is known regarding this debate. Like I said before, rigged software is a perfect crime.

I see the word RNG getting blame for the rigging. The RNG is as solid as the rock of Gibralter, never will the RNG cheat. It does not matter, who trys it can not happen. In some respect, a RNG is better than a dealer. You can bribe a dealer but you can't bribe the RNG.

The only time rigging can occur, is when the cards are moved from the RNG to the table.

Thanks for your time.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:36 AM   #9588
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
You dont say? Good chap, would you perhaps know of any sites that have this "Real Deal" aspect?
Sorry, there no such thing in these days that I know about. It kind of a dream, to think some thing like this is being develop. I heard a rumor, that someone was tying to put something together. It was something like a wheel with holes and a light. How it really worked I don't know. As I see it,there is plenty of moaning and crying across the Internet regarding the possibility of foul play. So one day, somebody will make something new for cards etc on the Internet.

Here is something to think about, all computers makes a log. Logs and computers are as common as salt on the potato chips. The RNG would make a log, what cards are pickup and for what table. There would be a log for what cards are delivered to what table. This log would be the software's duty. So why can't the logs be compared. The logs should be public domain, then anyone could view certain hands. This would sure put an end to guess whether you are being cheated or not.

Anyway have a good evening
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:12 AM   #9589
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

This is worse than 9/11! We're being scammed people! Wake up and go buy a gun! Now! The lizard people are near!

Don't you guys watch Fringe?!
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:50 AM   #9590
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
At the start the "Protectors" were strong and insulting, but now the only posting are people who now agree they are being "Had" playing online. One after another are posting their feeling and committing themselves to not playing online.
You do talk some old toss, don't you?

Quote:
I feel I have won.
I think the only thing you feel is yourself, on a regular basis.

It'll make you go blind.
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:51 AM   #9591
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Oh, c'mon, how could you not vote for the last option? That would be the blank one.
Because they'd forgotton to label it: 'Bastid!'.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:27 AM   #9592
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Here is something to think about, all computers makes a log. Logs and computers are as common as salt on the potato chips. The RNG would make a log, what cards are pickup and for what table. There would be a log for what cards are delivered to what table. This log would be the software's duty. So why can't the logs be compared. The logs should be public domain, then anyone could view certain hands. This would sure put an end to guess whether you are being cheated or not.
You might not be aware of this, but most poker sites already store a record of every hand you play on your own computer. These records are called "hand histories." They are simply text files that describe everything about the hand -- player names, stack sizes, everyone's actions on every street, your hole cards and those of everyone who went to showdown, all the board cards, etc. -- and these hand histories there for you to use in any way you see fit.

Several years ago, a number of technically oriented online poker players had the same idea at about the same time: Why not write some software that will read these hand histories and keep track of everything for us? How much we won or lost, how often we were dealt pocket aces, how many hands we played on such and such a date, how much we won or lost with pocket pairs from the small blind...whatever they could think of, they put in this software and started selling it to players all over the world.

The two that survived and are most popular are called Poker Tracker and Holdem Manager. Many tens of thousands of people use these programs every day. They keep track of every single thing that happens in every single hand they play. There are plenty of people who have hundreds of thousands of hands in their databases, and they add more every day. You can even find places on the internet where you can buy huge hand histories just so you can study the play of other players.

Now, some of the people who do this are also very suspicious of the sites. They comb over their data bases searching for some kind of proof that some site or other is rigged. They would like nothing more than to be able to show the world they've found proof that a site rigs its deals.

So far, not one person has ever posted anything remotely close to proof of a rigged deal. We see plenty of bad beats, the expected number of statistical anomalies, but nothing that isn't explained (and in fact predicted) by a perfectly fair deal.

That is not proof that everything is fair. It just means that, in spite of what must be many thousands of man-hours spent in searching for it, no one has ever found any proof that the sites rig their deals. Everything that has ever been found falls within the boundaries of a fair deal.

Maybe it's rigged in a way no one has ever thought to look for. That's pretty doubtful with so many people looking for evidence, but it's not impossible. Still, even though it's not impossible that one or more sites rig their deal, you can see why so many people believe them to be fair. It's because all evidence up to now points to fairness.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:53 AM   #9593
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
I challenged the posters who I call "Protectors" to write or post any information they got to prove the poker sites are not rigged. So far nobody has posted anything. Not one scrap of evidence. Oh they have called me names, as I was a wind bag and other nasty things. One of best they always comment on, is, "You don't know how to play poker." Maybe they are right, once I get settled into this board maybe I will offer them a chance to prove they are better than me. But it has to be for some good volume of cash. Nothing is better than a head to head game.

They also ask me to post my evidence, well I have only the following. Which is well broadcasted across the Internet. It is written by Bob Smith.

Found posted at http://www.pokerlistings.com/possibl...lt-poker-21428
Plus many other places on the Internet


on December 29, 2008 at 5:31 pm Bob Smith

Their are many folk out there arguing about if online poker is rigged or not…I wold like to help put this to rest by stating that it is rigged in many different ways. i helped write some of the software for tiltware LLC…while working on the fulltilt site some of the other programmers and i were asked to install programming into the software that would recognize certain players and provide them with unbeatable hands. we were also asked to develope software that would provide what they called the”maximum oppurtunity to bet” which meant that the deals are rigged to deal out alot of good starting hands to alot of players so that the most betting possible would take place on every deal. The deal would then provide a monster flop in which atleast two players would be all in before the river.(ever wonder why nobody ever misses the flop online…because then no one would bet and that is not what fulltilt wants) This keeps the tourneys fast paced and exciting which players love. Fulltilt loves this too, the faster you lose the faster they can make more money off you by having enter another tourney.
There is also another way fulltilt cheats you out of cash with their own personal players. These players are called house players and are fulltime employees of the Fulltilt compnay. If you check some names and their online wins vs. loss records you will often find them with records that are simply unreal. I have seen some of these folks who win over 50 straight sessions without a loss…how can this be possible unless they are working on the inside. They come and go and change their names often but they play in the site with the full adavantage of being able to see all the cards in play and in the deck.
Another programming trick we wrote into the software at fulltilt is the levels trick…this trick takes place when a tournament has been running after the first break. The computer recognizes the different size of each players chip stack and begins to deal out hands in which a small stack will shove all in and a large stack will have a better hand to call with. Have you ever wondered why you get pocekt QQs with 1500 chips and the guy next to you gets pockets KKs and he has 10,000 chips? The answer is simple the site is programmed to get you to play as much as possible. So we programmed the site to eliminate the small stack as quickly as possible so that they can go enter another tourney asap. The site is even prgrammed to adjust the flop for big stacks so that even if the big stack calls your hand with nothing he will end up beating your good made hand by the river. Often times the site will deal you back to back hands with the same cards but maybe different colors or suits..this “glitch” is a sign that the computer is adjusting the shuffle to start elimnting small stacks and allow the tourney to finish quicker.
The sooner a tournament is done the faster fulltilt can have you back at another table spending more money…it is to this sites best interested to eliminate you from tables as fast as possbile. There is no one to regulate how the company manipulates the software to thier own advantage. There is no one to monitor how the company pays out its players and employees. Simply put, giving some offshore account your hard earned cash is simply insane. Thinking that these people arent cheating you out of your money is crazy, the site has many layers of hidden programming all set up to take full adavantage of all types of players from novice to expert.
the main reason i wrote this blog is to expose the fraud that takes place at online gaming site known as Fulltilt poker i was fired three months ago from the company that helped write the software..yes i am bitter and mad but i do fell everyone so know how bad fulltilt is and that is a site built by THIEVES!!


OMG!!!!!! This is bombastic!!!!!!!!! Here is the inside information you asked for.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:26 AM   #9594
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Now to explain the last sentence. The computers have software, but it in machine or object code. Therefore you can't de-compile it (This I know was true several years ago, but today they may have newer methods) so who going to read it to see if it is rigged. What they may do (police), is search the offices and grab the source code. This you can read and see if it is rigged.
A) Of course they still have the source code laying around. How else do you think they release new versions and patches?

B) You've never heard of a decompiler? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompiler You know WAY less about Computer Science then you think you do. Do not try to debate things like compilation and RNGs on this board. You are up against actual computer scientists like myself. You are way over your head, sir.

C) Decompliers are not new. The first one was developed in 1960: http://www.program-transformation.or...Decompilation1
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:40 AM   #9595
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
A) Of course they still have the source code laying around. How else do you think they release new versions and patches?

B) You've never heard of a decompiler? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompiler You know WAY less about Computer Science then you think you do. Do not try to debate things like compilation and RNGs on this board. You are up against actual computer scientists like myself. You are way over your head, sir.
C) Decompliers are not new. The first one was developed in 1960: http://www.program-transformation.or...Decompilation1
"Computer Scienctists" or hackers?
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:46 AM   #9596
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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You do talk some old toss, don't you?



I think the only thing you feel is yourself, on a regular basis.

It'll make you go blind.
Again stop being a hypocrite! If IT makes you go blind please post evidence!Otherwise stop scaring people w/ myths.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:55 AM   #9597
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Again stop being a hypocrite! If IT makes you go blind please post evidence!Otherwise stop scaring people w/ myths.
I see what you did there....



Old Moose: have you decided to actually read the whole thread yet, or do you expect the "protectors" to write it all out again just for you so you won't think they're "yeller" in answering your accusations?
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:55 AM   #9598
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Again stop being a hypocrite! If IT makes you go blind please post evidence!Otherwise stop scaring people w/ myths.
zing!
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:06 AM   #9599
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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"Computer Scienctists" or hackers?
False dichotomy
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:24 AM   #9600
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Again stop being a hypocrite! If IT makes you go blind please post evidence!Otherwise stop scaring people w/ myths.
Plink!
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