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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.01%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9859. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-15-2009, 09:09 AM   #9451
SwedishMedusa
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

it's a tourney. add up the stacks and it makes for 9k chips (1500 starting stacks with 1 player busted from the 6 seat table).
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:12 AM   #9452
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
it doesnt really have the same effect until you see it - but i assure you its just another one of those totally absurd things you see online but never see live.
Live doesn't offer $2 tournaments in which players will chase a gutshot for all their chips. Also your implication is that b.p.rabbit is a superuser who knew the deuce would come on the river, not that the site rigged the deal. The latter makes no sense here. So yeah, superusers play $2 tournaments. Bottom line, this hand is not an example of anything but stupidity, both by the player and the person who published it thinking it meant something.

I should also point out that the caller b.p.rabbit had the all-in covered by ~2x, and he still had nearly a par stack even if he lost. So he probably believed the move wasn't totally stupid.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:19 AM   #9453
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Live doesn't offer $2 tournaments in which players will chase a gutshot for all their chips. Also your implication is that b.p.rabbit is a superuser who knew the deuce would come on the river, not that the site rigged the deal. The latter makes no sense here. So yeah, superusers play $2 tournaments. Bottom line, this hand is not an example of anything but stupidity, both by the player and the person who published it thinking it meant something.
no. can't you see it's iron-clad proof?
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:20 AM   #9454
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

If it's a $2 tournament, then it is totally explainable: calling those sorts of bets with gutshot draws explains why the player is playing at those stakes.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:23 AM   #9455
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Bed time for me now.

(from http://xkcd.com/258/)
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:34 AM   #9456
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
it's a tourney. add up the stacks and it makes for 9k chips (1500 starting stacks with 1 player busted from the 6 seat table).
Which also explains why there's no BB.

But still, two ******s clashing, one with a good hand he butchered and one with a gutshot, is always sad/funny to watch. And also total, absolute proof of rigging.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:44 AM   #9457
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Aside from the bad hand example, it's pretty clear now that Rockart's mission is to get traffic to his rigged web site, where he makes money on banners and affiliate deals. Not a bad business plan, there's an audience for it. I doubt he believes his own posts, he's just marketing. Ironic that we finally have a real shill in the thread.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:45 AM   #9458
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
Hand Information
Game: No Limit
Room: PokerStars
Blind: $10 / $20

Table Information
Seat 2: Hero ($1490)
Seat 3: ctoka ($1350)
Seat 4: b.p.rabbit ($2450)
Seat 5: 4n0nym0us ($2270) Dealer
Seat 6: menno_c ($1440) Small Blind

guy gets check raised holding 5 high on the turn with an all heart flop and still calls.

it doesnt really have the same effect until you see it - but i assure you its just another one of those totally absurd things you see online but never see live.
bc 1.06
Copyright 1991-1994, 1997, 1998, 2000 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
For details type `warranty'.
1490+1350+2450+2270+1440
9000

This shows it's a tournament hand from a 6-max tournament, in the first blind stage. Seat 1 has already gotten himself busted. Reckless play in a tournament proves nothing, it might have been a $0.10 6-max SNG, you cannot expect serious play there.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:11 AM   #9459
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
While I find the topic of programmers actually discussing how to rig somewhat interesting, I'm not sure how it helps in this discussion. Random or not, if its doing it on a regular basis it will be detectable in the HHs.

The issue is not whether it is possible for the programmer to rig: the issue is can they do it in a manner that would be statistically undetectable AND still not show up in the HHs over a sufficient sample.
Easy.

Just have the software shuffle the deck, then the first 10 cards are the hole cards of the players and the next 5 are the board (no need to burn online). Before you display them to the players, you determine which hand will win. If you want to rig it, you'd swap the hole cards of the player with a low luck factor with the cards of a player with a high luck factor every one in X times if the low luck player has the winning hand. Then you display all cards to the players.

It's undetectable since all cards are still randomly dealt, just in a different seat now. Also because it's based on the outcome it doesn't mean you deal someone high cards or high pairs more than usual. If the winning hand is 77 with a 7 on the river it might swap it with AK which is going to lose. Since all hands can win the hands and the board will statistically still look like a random deal.

Of course you have to ask yourself why. Sites would gain nothing from rigging the game. A random deal is the easiest to program, why complicate it.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:15 AM   #9460
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Thought I would cross post an excellent post from Duh in the Pitbull thread for how to approach these issues:


Quote:
Originally Posted by duh View Post
Bcloud, we all WANT to believe there were super users. Believe me, we are on your side. However, we are a intelligent community who generate a living by making objective decisions based on observing information as it is presented to us. We are not sheep, and we will not be led to allign ourselves with a theory without logical and convincing evidence. So far that evidence has not been presented, but we remain hopeful, optimistic, and open to more data.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:18 AM   #9461
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNauta View Post
Easy.

Just have the software shuffle the deck, then the first 10 cards are the hole cards of the players and the next 5 are the board (no need to burn online). Before you display them to the players, you determine which hand will win. If you want to rig it, you'd swap the hole cards of the player with a low luck factor with the cards of a player with a high luck factor every one in X times if the low luck player has the winning hand. Then you display all cards to the players.
This will result in players with high luck factors getting stronger hands more often than expected though, and vice versa. You could detect it by analysing your hands (if you had a high or low luck factor, not if you had an average luck factor).
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:31 AM   #9462
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
It might well be a tournament - that's entirely possible (even likely?) - but the hand history that Rockart posted included the dollar signs.

PS tournament hand histories don't include dollars in the hand histories to avoid this very confusion.

Whether it is a hand that is entirely manufactured (to be fair, this is unlikely) or just one that is fundamentally altered, it doesn't really matter - it shows the adjustment of hand histories to prove his point.

If you post a hand history claiming to be "$10/$20" then the reasonable assumption is that it is a poker hand with blinds of $10 and $20.
nice catch!

my first thought on watching that replay was... "why are either of them pursuing this hand so strongly?" Microstakes tourney would explain it.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:32 AM   #9463
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyromantha View Post
This will result in players with high luck factors getting stronger hands more often than expected though, and vice versa. You could detect it by analysing your hands (if you had a high or low luck factor, not if you had an average luck factor).
Plus, the luck factors for any give player varies with time, anyway.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:47 AM   #9464
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNauta View Post
you'd swap the hole cards of the player with a low luck factor with the cards of a player with a high luck factor every one in X times if the low luck player has the winning hand. Then you display all cards to the players.

It's undetectable since all cards are still randomly dealt, just in a different seat now.
Wrong. They are not randomly dealt to each player, all you've done is kept the aggregate the same. Very detectable, and more easily than many other ideas. Each player is expected to get every unique starting hand 1/1326 over time. In this scheme, they won't.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:47 AM   #9465
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Rockart,

I also note that the fake "hand history" that you have posted does not include rake. Is it because you forgot to consider it in your attempt to defraud us?

Why are you trying to con us?

It's pretty ironic that you complain about the integrity of others, yet you're the one who is posting false evidence and telling lies like a lying liar.
I concurr.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:20 PM   #9466
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Proof of bots on FTP?



http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/run-it-twice

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Old 10-15-2009, 12:26 PM   #9467
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Re: Proof of bots on FTP?

* Please note that maximum rake might vary for hands that are dealt twice.

^^^

lol @ FTP
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:30 PM   #9468
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Re: Proof of bots on FTP?

Also possible proof that the RNG is FUBAR, as pokerfan should only win that pot about 1 time in 50.

Answers demanded!!!
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:38 PM   #9469
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Re: Proof of bots on FTP?

How is that proof of anything, but someone with a stupid name
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:45 PM   #9470
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Re: Proof of bots on FTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimaoMacaco View Post
* Please note that maximum rake might vary for hands that are dealt twice.

^^^

lol @ FTP
I saw that too lol.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:49 PM   #9471
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Re: Proof of bots on FTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuts busted View Post
I didn't know these guys could play poker....

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Old 10-15-2009, 12:53 PM   #9472
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Re: Proof of bots on FTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuts busted View Post
Also possible proof that the RNG is FUBAR, as pokerfan should only win that pot about 1 time in 50.

Answers demanded!!!
Math fail.

His equity is 15%, so he wins it better than 1 in 7. The all-in is post-flop.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:50 PM   #9473
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
what do a supposedly rigged RNG and the absolute poker scandal have in common?

the device put in place to regulate and oversee the accountability of online poker sites was deliberately withholding information about the scandal. even when they were approached with the numbers and the graphs from this "superuser" they still denied any sort of wrong doing. it wasnt until the story was made public, via the media, that a statement was made.

so you still trust this governing body to ensure an honest game?
Still? I never did trust the KGC to govern anything even before the scandal. And of course I don't play on Cereus. So what's your point?

I trust in common sense, logic, my own hand histories, and my fellow poker players' analytical abilities. Of course sites could be rigged, but the fact that they could doesn't mean that they are. If I find anomalies in my hand histories, or see creditable evidence that something is amiss posted on the forums, I'll vigorously question what's going on. Until such time, I'll continue happily playing and making money, and leave the unfounded conspiracy theories to others.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:58 PM   #9474
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
the device put in place to regulate and oversee the accountability of online poker sites was deliberately withholding information about the scandal.
To be running a poker forum you are pretty short on real knowledge, shown here and in most of your posts.

The only large poker site regulated by KGC is Cereus, the one that had the scandal (on both their brands). Full Tilt is also a permit holder there because they have servers hosted at MIT, but that isn't their regulatory authority. They have a gambling license in Alderney, in a pretty well respected jurisdiction. Stars is in the IoM with no connection at all to KGC. Do some research.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:26 PM   #9475
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Re: Proof of bots on FTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Math fail.

His equity is 15%, so he wins it better than 1 in 7. The all-in is post-flop.
[x] irony
[ ] understands the math behind running it twice

Last edited by nuts busted; 10-15-2009 at 04:33 PM.
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