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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.01%
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:44 AM   #9426
Josem
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

You cannot be serious.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:55 AM   #9427
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I have something more serious. I was laying in bed, and it hit me. I'm also getting cussed out by my girlfriend for getting out of bed to type this.(Swear to god)
Spoiler:

Last edited by tk1133; 10-15-2009 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Who gives a **** if they rig play money games.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:58 AM   #9428
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
You also can't let pros win all the play money tables, or the wankers won't buy in.
Yeah, ive heard that Ivey, Negreanu and company all get their asses handed to them at the play money table. Sites definitely cant allow them to clean up there.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:39 AM   #9429
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
I don't know if they rig the money tables. But it makes profitable sense to rig the play tables. Play tables don't add money to the kitty. BUT, if you can make a bunch of wankers think they can play poker, they can be lured to the dark side. Fresh meat. Makes no sense to shuffle around a little kitty between a bunch of seasoned players.

You also can't let pros win all the play money tables, or the wankers won't buy in.

Then, you hire someone to figure out the most effective strategies to convert those players... and voila.. profitable venture. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE HIRING SOMEONE for that position.

I mean, it makes sense, unless you've got your head up your ass. It's too hard for some to admit, because they like resting in the thought that they *really can* play poker and start a forum site bashing the unbelievers.

If one says "rigged" then ok, maybe. When hundreds, even thousands, all over the internet, with absolutely nothing to gain by doing so and no relation between them, start posting, you're either an asshat or have your head buried firmly in your arse to completely disregard and even mock it.
You've made this same statement before, but then went missing for a few days when it was pointed out why you are wrong now you are back hoping it has been forgotten.

The problem with your theory is that in poker when someone wins another person loses. So if they were to rig it in favor of one play money player they would be rigging it against another. There is no rake in play money remember. There is no benefit to rigging it in favor of one player.


EDIT: Just re-read the post and due to the part I bolded, I'm fairly certain you are a gimmick and just leveling. No one could be that stupid...I hope.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:20 AM   #9430
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
You've made this same statement before, but then went missing for a few days when it was pointed out why you are wrong now you are back hoping it has been forgotten.
This is BOG standard rigtard behaviour.

When one of their claims is comprehensively answered they just leave it for a few days and then come back with exactly the same nonsense.

Occasionally they will call the person who comprehensively answered their nonsense a shill for good measure.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:16 AM   #9431
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
He's talking about only altering starting hands, and no showdown. Individual databases wouldn't show much skew. Sure it could be noticed in large individual databases, but probably overlooked at this level. How close is your AK frequency to 16/1326? Change that by 1.5%/N where N is average table size.

I had another thought, for the extra $290/hour before expenses why not just fire the 2-3 guys that thought up this scheme and make the same amount with no risk?
For $290 I will drop the concept...

Until then, the idea is not that it is the exact same special hand, but one of a variety that would play in a very expected way, so instead of AK suited it could be pocket 9s and the bb could have pocket 3s with flop being Q95 rainbow type thing (obviously just making this up).

Obviously any scheme is a huge fail in the risk/reward if done on a small ball concept to avoid detection.

The one concept that in theory would work is for a rogue site to do a smash and grab type job like Potripper where they take as much as possible with little concern of being caught. Of course simply not paying out withdrawals does this in an easier way, which is what some shady sites have done in the past, so it fails the no shame crime test as well compared to much simpler plans.

Also agreed that play money conspiracy guy could very well be a level, though many in this world are in fact that stupid. If he is genuine I suggest he look at the want ads in his local newspaper to see all kinds of similar evil plots based on his interpretation of a routine job posting.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:50 AM   #9432
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
For $290 I will drop the concept...

Until then, the idea is not that it is the exact same special hand, but one of a variety that would play in a very expected way, so instead of AK suited it could be pocket 9s and the bb could have pocket 3s with flop being Q95 rainbow type thing (obviously just making this up).
Yes, and we choose our variety of non-action hands such that all possible holdings are represented in exactly the proportion they should be if the game was random. i.e. we have a very long list of 'non-action' hands and we pick one at random to be dealt at the appropriate time. These hands would also need to have flops s.t. every statistic that could reasonably be tested matches the expected value, i.e. monotone flops, three-straight flop, pair+connector.

Thus if any individual player looks at his holecard data then nothing is changed. If he analyses the ranks/suits/whatever of cards that came on the flop then nothing is changed.

Some things are still changed. Number of turns seen, is lower, but we don't have any way of testing for that because it depends on how people play. Number of, say, flopped set against set is lower, because we can safely assume that if two players flopped sets, they would not fold on the flop.

I wonder how large a list of 'non-action' hands you would need to be able to pass all statistical tests on flop rank/texture/suits, and holecard rank/suits. It is probably a significant number but maybe we could write a computer program to generate them?
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:57 AM   #9433
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I don't think poker is rigged.

Weird, random **** happens in real life.

Weird, random **** happens online. Get the **** over it.

It's just that when it happens online people feel the need to blame the software. Same with the random-number generators. No, they are not *really* random. But they are so-fooken-close to it that for our purposes they are totally random. They use thing like "number of milliseconds since 1981" in order to create a seed for their random numbers. So if you wait 1/10th of a second longer you get a totally different number. Sure, if you could go back in time and press the "call" button (or whatever) at exactly the same hundredth of a millisecond in time then you *might* get the same result (depending on the environment of your CPU). But to say its "not really" random is just nonsense. Scientifically, no it's not. For our purposes, it's totally random. If you think it's not working properly, wait a 1/10th of a second longer and the result will be totally different.

Having said all that I just had a hand on PKR holding QQ. Villans had KK and AA. The chance of that would have to be incredibly slim. But it's exaclty the same chance of them holding 76 and J4. **** happens.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:08 AM   #9434
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
I don't know if they rig the money tables. But it makes profitable sense to rig the play tables. Play tables don't add money to the kitty. BUT, if you can make a bunch of wankers think they can play poker, they can be lured to the dark side. Fresh meat. Makes no sense to shuffle around a little kitty between a bunch of seasoned players.

You also can't let pros win all the play money tables, or the wankers won't buy in.

Then, you hire someone to figure out the most effective strategies to convert those players... and voila.. profitable venture. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE HIRING SOMEONE for that position.

I mean, it makes sense, unless you've got your head up your ass. It's too hard for some to admit, because they like resting in the thought that they *really can* play poker and start a forum site bashing the unbelievers.

If one says "rigged" then ok, maybe. When hundreds, even thousands, all over the internet, with absolutely nothing to gain by doing so and no relation between them, start posting, you're either an asshat or have your head buried firmly in your arse to completely disregard and even mock it.


By the way guys I'm sorry I haven't been around as often lately to shill. Hopefully the site(s) I'm shilling for don't notice I haven't been doing my job in this thread over the past few weeks. I just haven't felt like being as active on 2+2 lately.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:09 AM   #9435
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troopledooper View Post
Weird, random **** happens in real life.

Weird, random **** happens online. Get the **** over it.
Probably the most succinct and apposite response to this thread that one could imagine.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:51 AM   #9436
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

In before the rigtards start seeing evidence of Monty's scheme on every poker site, and to a much greater extent then he proposed. (I mean look at all those tables with less than 20% seeing the flop!)
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:09 AM   #9437
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
First of all, someone with backdoor software access and rigging an RNG aren't the same thing.

But much more importantly, I don't think anyone here is saying that online poker is 100% not rigged, or that sites can't or won't cheat, or that cheating is out of the question. I've never seen one single person say that.

However, we do have a lot of people who are 100% convinced that online poker is rigged, without any evidence. That's what you see what I would consider reasonable people (and they consider shills LOL) arguing against ITT.

Personally, I fully expect that other scandals will come to light from time to time. Be it big collusion or botting rings, an insider cheating customers, or even a poker site itself doing it. One must always be careful where one plays, and trust in the vigilance of fellow 2+2ers to find the scams. That's why I think it's important that people air their grievances. But I also think it's important we separate the wheat from the chaff, so when a real scandal comes to light, it isn't missed among all the ridiculous conspiracy theories. This thread is meant for the chaff, but hopefully the debate that goes on helps some people understand why their theory ends up in here, and also helps people understand what they should be looking for.
what do a supposedly rigged RNG and the absolute poker scandal have in common?

the device put in place to regulate and oversee the accountability of online poker sites was deliberately withholding information about the scandal. even when they were approached with the numbers and the graphs from this "superuser" they still denied any sort of wrong doing. it wasnt until the story was made public, via the media, that a statement was made.

so you still trust this governing body to ensure an honest game?
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:18 AM   #9438
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
I don't know if they rig the money tables. But it makes profitable sense to rig the play tables. Play tables don't add money to the kitty. BUT, if you can make a bunch of wankers think they can play poker, they can be lured to the dark side. Fresh meat. Makes no sense to shuffle around a little kitty between a bunch of seasoned players.

You also can't let pros win all the play money tables, or the wankers won't buy in.

Then, you hire someone to figure out the most effective strategies to convert those players... and voila.. profitable venture. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE HIRING SOMEONE for that position.

I mean, it makes sense, unless you've got your head up your ass. It's too hard for some to admit, because they like resting in the thought that they *really can* play poker and start a forum site bashing the unbelievers.

If one says "rigged" then ok, maybe. When hundreds, even thousands, all over the internet, with absolutely nothing to gain by doing so and no relation between them, start posting, you're either an asshat or have your head buried firmly in your arse to completely disregard and even mock it.
well said. but just as scientific theory about evolution or the cosmos or global warming is not sufficient for the religious hardliners, the same goes for online poker players. you literally need to bash them in the head with iron-clad proof before they will even begin to doubt their beliefs.

heres a classic someone just posted on my forum:

Hand Information
Game: No Limit
Room: PokerStars
Blind: $10 / $20

Table Information
Seat 2: Hero ($1490)
Seat 3: ctoka ($1350)
Seat 4: b.p.rabbit ($2450)
Seat 5: 4n0nym0us ($2270) Dealer
Seat 6: menno_c ($1440) Small Blind

Dealt to Hero: Qc Qd

Preflop (Pot:30)
FLOP ctoka
CALL b.p.rabbit $20
FLOP 4n0nym0us
CALL menno_c $10
RAISE Hero $120
CALL b.p.rabbit $100
FLOP menno_c

Flop (Pot:280): 9h Ah 3h

CHECK Hero
BET b.p.rabbit $200
CALL Hero $200

Turn (Pot:680): 9h Ah 3h Ac

CHECK Hero
BET b.p.rabbit $350
ALLIN Hero
CALL b.p.rabbit $820

River (Pot:1850): 9h Ah 3h Ac 2c

b.p.rabbit win the pot: $1850


here is the link in case you want to watch it play out:
http://www.pokerisrigged.com/showthr...2609#post32609


guy gets check raised holding 5 high on the turn with an all heart flop and still calls.

it doesnt really have the same effect until you see it - but i assure you its just another one of those totally absurd things you see online but never see live.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:22 AM   #9439
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
so you still trust this governing body to ensure an honest game?
Which governing body are you talking about?

If you look at what happened to Enron or, years after the relevant authorities had time to learn and beef up the system, Lehman et al, I certainly would not trust any body created by the US government to ensure an honest game.

Those who are, de facto, most responsible for ensuring a fair game are the players. A proportion of whom are sufficiently interested and have sufficiently good maths and stats to spot ant malfeasance on the part of the site.

If anyone had even the slightest credible evidence that a site was on the fiddle, we would begin to go through their stats with a fine toothed comb.

It's all down to the 'E' word (), you see.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:25 AM   #9440
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
well said. but just as scientific theory about evolution or the cosmos or global warming is not sufficient for the religious hardliners, the same goes for online poker players. you literally need to bash them in the head with iron-clad proof before they will even begin to doubt their beliefs.
Quite. And coming up with iron-clad proof that any rigtard will believe is all but impossible.

So we just have to accept that they are incompetent arseholes who can't play poker and will not take responsibility their weaknesses.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:38 AM   #9441
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
well said. but just as scientific theory about evolution or the cosmos or global warming is not sufficient for the religious hardliners, the same goes for online poker players. you literally need to bash them in the head with iron-clad proof before they will even begin to doubt their beliefs.
Please link to the "iron-clad proof" that you claim to have.
Quote:
heres a classic someone just posted on my forum:

Hand Information
Game: No Limit
Room: PokerStars
Blind: $10 / $20

Table Information
Seat 2: Hero ($1490)
Seat 3: ctoka ($1350)
Seat 4: b.p.rabbit ($2450)
Seat 5: 4n0nym0us ($2270) Dealer
Seat 6: menno_c ($1440) Small Blind

Dealt to Hero: Qc Qd

Preflop (Pot:30)
FLOP ctoka
CALL b.p.rabbit $20
FLOP 4n0nym0us
CALL menno_c $10
RAISE Hero $120
CALL b.p.rabbit $100
FLOP menno_c

Flop (Pot:280): 9h Ah 3h

CHECK Hero
BET b.p.rabbit $200
CALL Hero $200

Turn (Pot:680): 9h Ah 3h Ac

CHECK Hero
BET b.p.rabbit $350
ALLIN Hero
CALL b.p.rabbit $820

River (Pot:1850): 9h Ah 3h Ac 2c

b.p.rabbit win the pot: $1850


here is the link in case you want to watch it play out:
http://www.pokerisrigged.com/showthr...2609#post32609


guy gets check raised holding 5 high on the turn with an all heart flop and still calls.

it doesnt really have the same effect until you see it - but i assure you its just another one of those totally absurd things you see online but never see live.
Rockart,

A quick check of 'ctoka' on PokerTableRatings shows that he has never played $10/$20:

http://www.pokertableratings.com/sta...r-search/ctoka

The same thing for the other players at the table:
http://www.pokertableratings.com/sta...arch/4n0nym0us

Can you please explain why you are lying and making up false hand histories?

Why are you trying to lie to us? Why are you trying to defraud us?

I note that the 'rakeback' link on your website links through to another website that provides rakeback for a series of websites - in fact, pretty much every major online poker site except for PokerStars.... coincidentally, the target of your demonstrably false hand histories.

Why is this?

Can you please explain this?

Is it true that you're not just a lying liar that lies, but also deliberately trying to con people for financial gain?
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:42 AM   #9442
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Rockart,

I also note that the fake "hand history" that you have posted does not include rake. Is it because you forgot to consider it in your attempt to defraud us?

Why are you trying to con us?

It's pretty ironic that you complain about the integrity of others, yet you're the one who is posting false evidence and telling lies like a lying liar.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:43 AM   #9443
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troopledooper View Post
Same with the random-number generators. No, they are not *really* random. But they are so-fooken-close to it that for our purposes they are totally random. They use thing like "number of milliseconds since 1981" in order to create a seed for their random numbers. So if you wait 1/10th of a second longer you get a totally different number. Sure, if you could go back in time and press the "call" button (or whatever) at exactly the same hundredth of a millisecond in time then you *might* get the same result (depending on the environment of your CPU). But to say its "not really" random is just nonsense. Scientifically, no it's not. For our purposes, it's totally random. If you think it's not working properly, wait a 1/10th of a second longer and the result will be totally different.
Modern RNGs are truly random, they don't use a seed as you are describing it, they are using for example input from a thermal noise source which is truly random.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:44 AM   #9444
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
I note that the 'rakeback' link on your website links through to another website that provides rakeback for a series of websites - in fact, pretty much every major online poker site except for PokerStars.... coincidentally, the target of your demonstrably false hand histories.

Why is this?
ROFLMAO.

Rockart you are so pwned!
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:45 AM   #9445
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Please link to the "iron-clad proof" that you claim to have.

Rockart,

A quick check of 'ctoka' on PokerTableRatings shows that he has never played $10/$20:

http://www.pokertableratings.com/sta...r-search/ctoka

The same thing for the other players at the table:
http://www.pokertableratings.com/sta...arch/4n0nym0us

Can you please explain why you are lying and making up false hand histories?
Did you check to ensure it wasn't a tournament?
That would explain why there was no rake as well
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:53 AM   #9446
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
I also note that the fake "hand history" that you have posted does not include rake. Is it because you forgot to consider it in your attempt to defraud us?

Why are you trying to con us?

It's pretty ironic that you complain about the integrity of others, yet you're the one who is posting false evidence and telling lies like a lying liar.
Yes, the marked mendaciousness of the malign misleader makes malicious mendacity morally moribund.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:53 AM   #9447
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

It looks like it's really tourney $, not a cash game, and those players do have PS tourney history. It's probably a $2 tourney, which explains the behavior. Or play money.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:55 AM   #9448
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyromantha View Post
Did you check to ensure it wasn't a tournament?
That would explain why there was no rake as well
It might well be a tournament - that's entirely possible (even likely?) - but the hand history that Rockart posted included the dollar signs.

PS tournament hand histories don't include dollars in the hand histories to avoid this very confusion.

Whether it is a hand that is entirely manufactured (to be fair, this is unlikely) or just one that is fundamentally altered, it doesn't really matter - it shows the adjustment of hand histories to prove his point.

If you post a hand history claiming to be "$10/$20" then the reasonable assumption is that it is a poker hand with blinds of $10 and $20.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:57 AM   #9449
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
It looks like it's really tourney $, not a cash game, and those players do have PS tourney history. It's probably a $2 tourney, which explains the behavior. Or play money.
I agree. What was claimed to be some sort of evil plot involving thousands of dollars, is now a micro stakes bad beat.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:05 AM   #9450
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
It looks like it's really tourney $, not a cash game, and those players do have PS tourney history. It's probably a $2 tourney, which explains the behavior. Or play money.
Well, if its play money, that explains why its so rigged!
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