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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:23 PM   #9226
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
Overgeneralizing the varied responses people have had to this topic.
Please post a link to anywhere where any of the regulars has made a statement that poker sites are definitely not rigged.

And the definition of a rigtard is someone who is sure that sites are rigged despite having no evidence. Simply wondering if they are does not qualify you for the epithet.

So the only generalisations made were quite valid.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:32 PM   #9227
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Just provide a pointer to a single instance of any of the regular 'rigtard debunkers' doing that on this thread.

Just one.



That's because you are yourself so moronic that you can't even understand English well enough to comprehend what was posted.
I called both sides moronic, and let me be clear, I'm talking about the extremists on both sides.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:34 PM   #9228
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by goomba View Post
I called both sides moronic, and let me be clear, I'm talking about the extremists on both sides.
As far as I'm aware there are no extremists on the rigtard debunkers side.

The whole point to disagreeing with them is that there is no credible evidence that the sites are rigged and that means that you can't say anything definite one way or another.

Where is the extremism in that?
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:36 PM   #9229
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
you guys haven't ever read something like "XYZ wouldn't risk doing that because they would go out of business if found out" ?

no proof shown there either... in fact, that's harder to prove than the other... you'd have to know the intentions of the people running the site... and then guess the outcome of what would happen when the news broke... there have been poker scandals on sites that still do business today... what's another one?

both sides to this coin have their fanatics... fervent believers in the cards being rigged... and the fervent believers that poker sites are on the up and up... both sides think the other side are idiots... in a way, these are both leaps of faith with no proof...

i give the poker sites the benefit of the doubt, but who really knows?
Is that your take on Russell's Teapot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot as well? The believers and disbelievers in the teapot are equally fanatical, you give the disbelief the benefit of the doubt, but who really knows?
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:43 PM   #9230
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Is that your take on Russell's Teapot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot as well? The believers and disbelievers in the teapot are equally fanatical, you give the disbelief the benefit of the doubt, but who really knows?
These two newish posters,goomba and smithcommajohn, are trying to create a classic 'argumentum ad temperantiam'.

If you can make out that those who are debunking the rigtards are equally far from a logical argument then you can appeal to the middle ground which you can try and misrepresent as there being equal probabilities that on line poker is rigged or not.

This is, of course, not true since there are many, many, people monitoring the sites and no evidence has been found.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:46 PM   #9231
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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no one is doing this.

all they are saying is "currently there is no indication that the deal is rigged so if you want to claim it is please provide proof"

I don't see the morony in that
I'm not claiming anyhting. I belive most people lose because they are not as good as they believe, and online you get to see that very quicky due to the sheer volume of hands. Some people deny their own faults and say rigged.

However, I won't defend the other side as it is very possible that a site could rig a game, or put it's own players in, or do some of the other things that they are accused of, out of greed. To deny that this is very possible, is simply hiding your head in the sand.

Another point I'd like to make, is that it isn't up to me or anyone else to prove foul play. I'm the customer. I just need to decide whether or not I want to give my business to someone. I will leave it to the poker rooms to decide how to gain my confidence.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:53 PM   #9232
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Please post a link to anywhere where any of the regulars has made a statement that poker sites are definitely not rigged.

And the definition of a rigtard is someone who is sure that sites are rigged despite having no evidence. Simply wondering if they are does not qualify you for the epithet.

So the only generalisations made were quite valid.
Many of the posts here seem to fit these two molds:

1) These sites are so rigged! I lost a lot of money!

2) You're an idiot! Learn to play poker and you wouldn't lose your money!

The first one clearly states that they think the sites are rigged. The second one only implies that they are not, but it is still supporting the idea of sites NOT being rigged. It doesn't imply they are PROBABLY not. It implies they are DEFINITELY not.

How are these not two sides of the same coin?
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:54 PM   #9233
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by goomba View Post
However, I won't defend the other side as it is very possible that a site could rig a game, or put it's own players in, or do some of the other things that they are accused of, out of greed. To deny that this is very possible, is simply hiding your head in the sand.
Yes, but you see, with all the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people playing on line poker and thus being exposed to the behaviour of the sites, only in the particular case of AP/UB has any credible evidence been presented for misbehaviour by said sites.

And when that happened the community here was down on the miscreants like a ton of bricks.

The fact that someone could be doing something is utterly meaningless without evidence that they are.

You could, for personal gain, be grooming all the under eights in your area for sex and then running parties at which they are abused.

However, without any evidence I think most people would say that you probably are not.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:54 PM   #9234
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by goomba View Post
it is very possible that a site could rig a game, or put it's own players in, or do some of the other things that they are accused of, out of greed. To deny that this is very possible, is simply hiding your head in the sand.
I don't think anyone in this thread would disagree with this statement and I wonder why you think they would.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:55 PM   #9235
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
Many of the posts here seem to fit these two molds:

1) These sites are so rigged! I lost a lot of money!

2) You're an idiot! Learn to play poker and you wouldn't lose your money!

The first one clearly states that they think the sites are rigged. The second one only implies that they are not, but it is still supporting the idea of sites NOT being rigged. It doesn't imply they are PROBABLY not. It implies they are DEFINITELY not.

How are these not two sides of the same coin?
Which part of:

Rigtards say that poker sites are definitely rigged despite there being not one shred of evidence for this position.

Rigtard debunkers say that sites are probably not rigged because there is not one shred of evidence that they are.


are you having difficulty understanding?


If you can equate someone saying they definitely believe something despite the fact that thousands of people are watching and have not found evidence with someone saying something is probably not happening because thousands of people of people are watching and have found no evidence, then you truly are a fool.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:59 PM   #9236
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I don't think anyone in this thread would disagree with this statement and I wonder why you think they would.
It's called a 'straw man argument'.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:00 PM   #9237
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
As far as I'm aware there are no extremists on the rigtard debunkers side.

The whole point to disagreeing with them is that there is no credible evidence that the sites are rigged and that means that you can't say anything definite one way or another.

Where is the extremism in that?
Not being able to say one way or the other isn't good enough for me to take a side. The name rigtard in itself implies that anyone who believes the possibility or poses the question of an unfair game, should be scoffed at as losers with no proof.

My own feeling is that a disinterested third party would have to do a full audit on the sites in order to have anything credible enough to say for sure.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:08 PM   #9238
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by goomba View Post
Not being able to say one way or the other isn't good enough for me to take a side. The name rigtard in itself implies that anyone who believes the possibility or poses the question of an unfair game, should be scoffed at as losers with no proof.
I specifically stated a few posts back that believing in the possibility of rigging does not qualify you as a rigtard.

You see, you are promoting a straw man argument here.

Quote:
My own feeling is that a disinterested third party would have to do a full audit on the sites in order to have anything credible enough to say for sure.
Quite.

That is the position of the rigtard debunkers. You would need to do what you suggest to have EVIDENCE to say for certain.

Just as we would have to get you investigated to be certain that you are not grooming under eights for sex with adults.

In the interim, however, we can say (in both cases) that as there is a lack of credible evidence, the malfeasance is probably not taking place.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:12 PM   #9239
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Which part of:

Rigtards say that poker sites are definitely rigged despite there being not one shred of evidence for this position.

Rigtard debunkers say that sites are probably not rigged because there is not one shred of evidence that they are.


are you having difficulty understanding?
Again, I think you're overgeneralizing. There are definitely people on both sides that take more/less extreme views.

You and I are not as far away from our view as you may think. I will state again, I give the poker sites the benefit of the doubt. This is just another way of saying "online poker is PROBABLY not rigged". However, I would never called myself a "rigtard-debunker".



Quote:
Originally Posted by goomba View Post
Not being able to say one way or the other isn't good enough for me to take a side. The name rigtard in itself implies that anyone who believes the possibility or poses the question of an unfair game, should be scoffed at as losers with no proof.
Control the language and you control the argument.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:15 PM   #9240
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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In the interim, however, we can say (in both cases) that as there is a lack of credible evidence, the malfeasance is probably not taking place.
I agree.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:17 PM   #9241
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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It's called a 'straw man argument'.
qpw,
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:17 PM   #9242
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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It's called a 'straw man argument'.
qpw,

Do you believe there is a reasonable chance that the sites cheat their players?
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:20 PM   #9243
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I agree.
So do I
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:25 PM   #9244
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
Again, I think you're overgeneralizing. There are definitely people on both sides that take more/less extreme views.
.
Don't confuse the humour people use (in good taste or bad) that some of the debunkers use against the rigtards as extremism on that side. While I stand to be corrected, having read the entire thread, I cannot think of a single post where a debunker said that they believe that there is absolutely no chance of rigging going on and the sites are honest. Certainly not among the regular posters.

When they say that the sites wouldn't do that they are not saying that because they think the sites are honest, but that most of the sites would correctly feel that they shouldn't rig because the chance of getting caught is so high. But even then, it's possible some idiot owner would do it with a profitable site, more likely it would be done as a hit and run by a non-profitable site just before going out of business.

Can't say the same for the rigtard side. Some would literally bet their life on FTP/Pokerstars being rigged.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:28 PM   #9245
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
I specifically stated a few posts back that believing in the possibility of rigging does not qualify you as a rigtard.

You see, you are promoting a straw man argument here.



Quite.

That is the position of the rigtard debunkers. You would need to do what you suggest to have EVIDENCE to say for certain.

Just as we would have to get you investigated to be certain that you are not grooming under eights for sex with adults.

In the interim, however, we can say (in both cases) that as there is a lack of credible evidence, the malfeasance is probably not taking place.
qpw,

The fact that you would insult me as part of your argument, just killed your credability with me.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:29 PM   #9246
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by goomba View Post
qpw,

Do you believe there is a reasonable chance that the sites cheat their players?
What, all of them?

All I can say is there is a finite chance - what each person considers 'reasonable' is another matter.

I do also think that at some time in the future there is a finite chance that evidence will come to light that a site has been cheating its users.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:30 PM   #9247
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Don't confuse the humour people use (in good taste or bad) that some of the debunkers use against the rigtards as extremism on that side. While I stand to be corrected, having read the entire thread, I cannot think of a single post where a debunker said that they believe that there is absolutely no chance of rigging going on and the sites are honest. Certainly not among the regular posters.

When they say that the sites wouldn't do that they are not saying that because they think the sites are honest, but that most of the sites would correctly feel that they shouldn't rig because the chance of getting caught is so high. But even then, it's possible some idiot owner would do it with a profitable site, more likely it would be done as a hit and run by a non-profitable site just before going out of business.

Can't say the same for the rigtard side. Some would literally bet their life on FTP/Pokerstars being rigged.
This I agree with.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:31 PM   #9248
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by goomba View Post
qpw,

The fact that you would insult me as part of your argument, just killed your credability with me.
Sorry, could you just highlight the part in the piece you quoted where I insulted you?

Not, I have to say, that having credibility with you is at the top of my list of important achievements.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:33 PM   #9249
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by goomba View Post
qpw,

The fact that you would insult me as part of your argument, just killed your credability with me.
the fact that you perceived an insult in his post, along with your misspelling of the word "credibility" sealed your reputation as a fool with me.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:40 PM   #9250
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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qpw,

The fact that you would insult me as part of your argument, just killed your credability with me.
I think you may have misread his post. I don't see an insult there.
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