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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:19 PM   #9151
ROCKART
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Well, I can show you one case where you're wrong.

If player A has decided that he will spend a windfall by putting his money on a poker site and playing it but no more and engages in a marathon heads up match with player B who is vastly better player then player B will quickly (in some relative sense) take all player A's money and no further rake will be generated.

If the site even things up by giving Player A better hands (remember we are ignoring the possibility of being caught) then it will take player B more hands to win all A's money and more rake will be generated.

The same logic, mutatis mutandis, applies where more players are involved over more hands.

I don't know from whence this 'epiphany' came but it's hard to see how increasing the length of time it takes for good players to win the money of bad players could possibly not make the site more rake.

Obviously there would come a point where the really good players got sick of being cheated and left but, by the same token, bad players would take a lot longer to get fed up and go.

From a poker site's perspective what they would ideally like are a larger group of very evenly matched players who are prepared to top up their bank rolls from time to time.
you hit the nail on the head.

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
ROCKART, the latest addition to the rigtard revolution, turns up and posts a 3000 word essay complete with topic headers and screenshots and it turns out part of his theory is simply that people are dealt more "nice starting hands" than they should be. How many times could you have checked this outright lie in the time it took you to write it? In fact, forget about writing it. It took you longer to copy and paste it form your "competing forum" than it would take to fire up PT/HEM and just check.

WTF is wrong with you people?
"people get nicer starting hands" is the only point you got from my essay? really?
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:00 PM   #9152
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
you hit the nail on the head.
Possibly, but I would not be surprised if SpadeBidder hasn't got something up his sleeve.

Anyway, that in no way implies it happens.

I could be a lot richer if I robbed banks but I don't.

No, really, I don't.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:08 PM   #9153
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

[ ] Has read this entire 600+ page thread

Isn't the real problem of asserting either they ARE or ARE NOT rigging hands that we have absolutely no way to prove either? Without seeing ALL the dealt cards, we can't really run any serious studies on the odds of certain events occurring.

Many people say that with literally millions of hands in players' PT3, why hasn't anyone come up with proof? How could they? First off, PT3 doesn't have a "Run analysis for rigged cards" checkbox or have some kind of report that will show you proof. I have/had (btw, don't trust Carbonite) only 7-8 thousand hands in mine and saw some small anomalies in hole cards dealt, but dismissed it to sample size. That's about all you can really tell without doing some VERY tedious work, which I did.

I went through every tournament I had played on FTP and found every single hand where I was all-in preflop vs. one opponent. I wasn't checking to see if I won or lost the hand in particular, but rather to see if the conspiracy theory of "Big stacks are favored in tournaments to end them sooner" held any water whatsoever. Sometimes I was the big stack, sometimes the short stack. Sometimes I won as the favorite, sometimes as the dog, etc.

My limited database only provided me with 159 hands that provided the situation mentioned. Again, sample size is clearly a problem. I took the odds of each hand winning say:

AdKh (43%) vs. QcQs (57%)

Say the AK was the short stack and the QQ the big stack and the end result was that the QQ held up and won the hand. The expected result (over time) for QQ is +57% (of the pot), but the actual result was +100% (of the pot). The expected result of AK (over time) is +43% (of the pot), but the actual result was 0% (of the pot).

So, effectively, the QQ (big stack, in this case) exceeded its expected result by (100-57) +43% (of the pot) and the AK (small stack, in this case) fell short of its expected result by (0-43) -43% (of the pot). These numbers +43, -43 should mirror each other nearly always except in situations involving a high probability of a split pot.

Each hand will obviously show a very high variance from its expected value since you clearly can't win 57% of the pot, it's either 100% or 0%. But, over time, we should see the difference of the expected result and actual result balance out to 0%.

My results were interesting. Right out of the gate the results were showing a bias towards the big stack. After about 30 hands it leveled back to about 0%, but then it swung higher and higher towards the big stack and never came back.

Final result over 159 hands: Big stack's result was over +650% when it should gravitate to 0%. The results are not even close to conclusive, but they clearly don't support the negative (bias towards the short stack). After losing my PT3 database, I've been unable to add to the study or perform any other studies. I'm not even sure what other kinds of studies can be done with so little information actually being given to us.

If someone could devise a simpler way to compile this information through PT3, I'm sure a large-scale study could be done with some of the databases the hardcore players have. Until then, I'm afraid we're in the dark.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:32 PM   #9154
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
"people get nicer starting hands" is the only point you got from my essay? really?
So rather than responding to the perfectly valid point that several people have made (that this is easy to prove and yet you havent bothered), you ask me to read the whole, tedius, badly written, illogical nonsense? I tried, believe me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
After losing my PT3 database, I've been unable to add to the study or perform any other studies. I'm not even sure what other kinds of studies can be done with so little information actually being given to us.

If someone could devise a simpler way to compile this information through PT3, I'm sure a large-scale study could be done with some of the databases the hardcore players have. Until then, I'm afraid we're in the dark.
As you say your sample is too small to be conclusive but at least you are doing some kind of analysis. Cant you e-mail FTP for full hand history, filter results (2 players see flop, preflop raise all in etc) then produce EV graph?

Will spadebidder be proving / killing this theory as part of his analysis?
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:49 PM   #9155
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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No, they don't "aim" for any particular "accuracy". If they did, it would be a rigged game. What they do is randomly arrange the virtual cards in a virtual deck and then deal them out to the players. The "accuracy" is a natural result of this.

It is very, very easy to shuffle a virtual deck, and that is all that is needed to guarantee a fair game (other than the obvious things like making sure the pot goes to the right guy, etc.). If a site ever does start causing flushes to hit significantly more for its losing players (or whatever rigged theory is being investigated), it won't be by accident.
I'm not saying they are trying to deal with accuracy odds-wise, I was just saying that the accuracy the online deck could easily be 2-4% off either way compared to a B&M deck because of the software writing, and it probably is off at least to some extent, hopefully less than 1% though.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:52 PM   #9156
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NoMeansNo View Post
I'm not saying they are trying to deal with accuracy odds-wise, I was just saying that the accuracy the online deck could easily be 2-4% off either way compared to a B&M deck because of the software writing, and it probably is off at least to some extent, hopefully less than 1% though.
In fact a deck dealt using properly written software will, provided it isn't rigged, be far better randomised than one shuffled by even the very best of dealers no matter how many safeguards are applied.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:56 PM   #9157
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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So now instead of action boards, your theory has changed to the starting hands being manipulated? Even though that is the easiest thing for every player to check statistically and it has been checked thousands of times by players with hundreds of thousands of hands?
Yes, there is rocksolid evidence against the starting hands being rigged, in a lot of cases players data actually made that case that the starting hands were rigged for "non-action" as the number of times they were dealt AA was less than the total number of hands in the sample (millions, btw) divided by 221

This guy obviously has a vendetta against online poker and doesn't have a clue to go about proving that online poker is rigged.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:11 PM   #9158
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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In fact a deck dealt using properly written software will, provided it isn't rigged, be far better randomised than one shuffled by even the very best of dealers no matter how many safeguards are applied.
Sweet dude.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:22 PM   #9159
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Sweet dude.
Just statin' the facts, ma'am.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:24 PM   #9160
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Just statin' the facts, ma'am.
I'm just saying that I never looked at it that way and that I agree with you, miss.
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:06 PM   #9161
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Amazing how many trust companys that run criminal activities.

Poker is beatable but definetely its funny that the games are far away from the same on different sides. Quads via FH 5 times more here and there, set over set 3 times more.

If you can handle rigged games and beat them play, if you loose leave.

Cheating, criminal activities are common today and a fair shuffle sure.....
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:27 PM   #9162
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Amazing how many trust companys that run criminal activities.

Poker is beatable but definetely its funny that the games are far away from the same on different sides. Quads via FH 5 times more here and there, set over set 3 times more.

If you can handle rigged games and beat them play, if you loose leave.

Cheating, criminal activities are common today and a fair shuffle sure.....
The part about quads vs. a full house happening 5 times more often than in live play is completely false, it happens near the same amount, If you took every live Quads vs. FH and every online Quads vs. FH I am confident the number would be near close to each other, the part about set over set happening more online is also false, I mass multitable and rarely see it, to be exact, I see it about 1 percent of the time that I flop a set, which is about the right % of the time that it is supposed to be happening, I think.
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:52 PM   #9163
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
but what really riles me is that in over 9000 posts in this thread I dont believe any of you rigtards has even bothered to put your hands into PT/HEM and post a suspicous looking stat. I've obviously given up on expecting full disclosure on an unbiased sample that might actually indicate something is wrong but you can't even be bothered to cherry pick something to try and convince everyone? REALLY?

[/B]
About 6 months ago there was a chap who posted some cherry-picked allin stats in the thread that were about 1.5 standard deviations below expected. He even had a (correct) spreadsheet to back up his claims!
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:54 PM   #9164
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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About 6 months ago there was a chap who posted some cherry-picked allin stats in the thread that were about 1.5 standard deviations below expected. He even had a (correct) spreadsheet to back up his claims!
Yes I love stats and graphs that show the game is actually rigged for nonaction rather than rigged for action, it makes me lol.
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:42 PM   #9165
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by solucky View Post
Amazing how many trust companys that run criminal activities.

Poker is beatable but definetely its funny that the games are far away from the same on different sides. Quads via FH 5 times more here and there, set over set 3 times more.

If you can handle rigged games and beat them play, if you loose leave.

Cheating, criminal activities are common today and a fair shuffle sure.....
You keep posting in this thread with the same falsities. Which B&M casino are you shilling for?
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:44 PM   #9166
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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You keep posting in this thread with the same falsities. Which B&M casino are you shilling for?
None , i reduced my play a few month after the US Ban. Reason was that RB and Bonus offers was poorer any new month and my small winnings make it not longer worth to play 60-90 hours / month. Since 1.09.09 i stopped poker..its crime here now..and i have no fun to pay a 6 digit fine for a few small
winnings.

There are a few legal games here that give me a better hourly rate.
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:50 PM   #9167
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Rigtard-a-ments
lololololololololololololololololol
of course it's rigged , rigged so the idiots loose !!!!!!
lolololololollololololololololololol
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:00 PM   #9168
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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None , i reduced my play a few month after the US Ban. Reason was that RB and Bonus offers was poorer any new month and my small winnings make it not longer worth to play 60-90 hours / month. Since 1.09.09 i stopped poker..its crime here now..and i have no fun to pay a 6 digit fine for a few small
winnings.

There are a few legal games here that give me a better hourly rate.
Are you from either Washington State or Kentucky?
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:25 PM   #9169
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Germany is my guess
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:41 PM   #9170
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Germany is my guess
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:43 PM   #9171
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

i dont get why im always on a downswing before clearing a bonus or cashing out.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:00 PM   #9172
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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i dont get why im always on a downswing before clearing a bonus or cashing out.
Do you tell the site when you're planning to cash out so they can flip your doomswitch?
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:07 PM   #9173
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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wow just checking in this thread and wow

These defenders just never seem to get tired of the same pointless arguments. They have to get paid to do this. Anything else is just not human nature unless you are talking about the mentally ill. They seem like sane logical guys though, obviously getting paid to combat those who doubt the integrity of online poker.

I am a skeptic of the integrity of online poker. I started sportsbetting, being around a lot of shady people and casino personnel and I know their mentality. That is the basis of my skepticism. And with the current legal climate online poker finds itself in, you are dealing with people very willing to walk a very fine legal line to provide this service. Usually the more legally questionable the service, the more criminal the element is providing it. People like that do NOT like dealing with variance or risk, which they see as something for the punters, not them. That is the basis of my skepticism.

If I am going to check this thread every once in awhile I would be willing to step over to the other side if I could get paid for it. Can one of you guys hook me up? I will start a new account and pick up on the other side of the argument which I think I could argue better than most of the current shills. Just PM me for details. thx
BINGO BINGO BINGO,you notice the same guys here at the drop of a dime ready to defend online poker.Anytime or day,Always asking for proof and hand histories,like they would believe anybody.They are surely getting paid or their nuts with no life..I check this site every few months and its the same nuts still going at it..GET A LIFE AND QUIT TRYING TO GET YOUR NIEGHBORS SCREWED PLAYING ONLINE POKER.. THIS FROM A POKER ROOM MANAGER!
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:26 PM   #9174
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

The shills are painfully obvious. They're why these threads are so entertaining. They go against all logic to defend their cash cow. If we are to believe them, we are supposed to ignore the fact that none of these internet poker sites are regulated by anybody.

The lack of regulation shouldn't be a concern however. We would be ******ed, or rig-tarded, to think that a lack of oversight would lead to players getting cheated.

lol.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:56 PM   #9175
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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BINGO BINGO BINGO,you notice the same guys here at the drop of a dime ready to defend online poker.Anytime or day,Always asking for proof and hand histories,like they would believe anybody.They are surely getting paid or their nuts with no life!
I guess I'm one of the nuts with no life (if no life means over-30, desk job, married with two kids which give plenty of time to check 2+2). Why do people have so much trouble understanding that this thread is basically silly entertainment? Most of the time, it's been lulling lately although may be picking up now.

But this thread is also about critical thinking, which is also why I enjoy it. I think it is helping the rigtards to think about how to approach this question of whether a particular site is rigged. There is a lot of filler, but also some really interesting stuff out there on stats, variance, etc.

It's harmless fun and a good distraction at work!
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