Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2009, 01:06 AM   #9126
NoMeansNo
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,263
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Personally I think it may be slightly skewed, but only to the degree of 2-4 percetage points off, and it's not on purpose, just bad software writing, and that 2-4 percentage points can swing either way, for against the drawing player.

Thread conclusion: It's not rigged, you just SUCK.
NoMeansNo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 01:13 AM   #9127
LetsGambool
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,578
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMeansNo View Post
Personally I think it may be slightly skewed, but only to the degree of 2-4 percetage points off, and it's not on purpose, just bad software writing, and that 2-4 percentage points can swing either way, for against the drawing player.

Thread conclusion: It's not rigged, you just SUCK.
Fail
LetsGambool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 01:20 AM   #9128
NoMeansNo
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,263
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
Fail
So, for the record, are you for or against the rigged theory?



If you are for the rigged theory: How much did you lose?
NoMeansNo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 01:46 AM   #9129
LetsGambool
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,578
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Im going to say that the theory that the sites are skewing hands by 2-4 percentage points is wrong.

Concluding that a site that DID do this is not rigged is also very wrong, there is no way software "accidentally" makes the deal off by 3%.
LetsGambool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 02:01 AM   #9130
LVGambler
banned
 
LVGambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EXIT42O
Posts: 4,884
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
Thanks for your consideration.. I still float the forums from time-to-time. Who ever said I had no $? I just won a big mtt online.. But it does not change the fact it is rigged.

Can you provide proof?

j/k
LVGambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 03:14 AM   #9131
NoMeansNo
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,263
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

So you think they write the software so that it is within 1% accuracy? 2-4% is still a pretty fair game, btw, and I wasn't saying they were doing it on purpose, but by accident.
NoMeansNo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 03:28 AM   #9132
NoMeansNo
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,263
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

This is one of my favorite quotes: "If you are dumb enough to think online poker is rigged, then you are not intelligent enough to ever become a winning poker player."
NoMeansNo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 04:43 AM   #9133
Username^^
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,784
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMeansNo View Post
This is one of my favorite quotes: "If you are dumb enough to think online poker is rigged, then you are not intelligent enough to ever become a winning poker player."

this is my favorite quote :


If your dumb enough to write bst in this thread than you are rigged.
Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 06:23 AM   #9134
Weevil99
grinder
 
Weevil99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Waiting for an epiphany
Posts: 620
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMeansNo View Post
So you think they write the software so that it is within 1% accuracy? 2-4% is still a pretty fair game, btw, and I wasn't saying they were doing it on purpose, but by accident.
No, they don't "aim" for any particular "accuracy". If they did, it would be a rigged game. What they do is randomly arrange the virtual cards in a virtual deck and then deal them out to the players. The "accuracy" is a natural result of this.

It is very, very easy to shuffle a virtual deck, and that is all that is needed to guarantee a fair game (other than the obvious things like making sure the pot goes to the right guy, etc.). If a site ever does start causing flushes to hit significantly more for its losing players (or whatever rigged theory is being investigated), it won't be by accident.
Weevil99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 06:51 AM   #9135
Weevil99
grinder
 
Weevil99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Waiting for an epiphany
Posts: 620
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
The study that HAS NOT been done, though, is the percentage of players at a table that pay to see the turn and river online;
Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Among your many factual errors, I wanted to correct this one since others commented on it, and since you were so emphatic about it. This has been done, more than once. The Cigital study of 100 million cash game hands showed that there is a showdown 24% of the time. I personally have the stat for several hundred million cash game NLHE hands, it was around 38% turns and 27% rivers counting all stakes together. If you like I can give you the stat for any stake level.
You seem to be talking about two different things. He's talking about the percentage of players seeing the turn and river. You appear to be talking about the percentage of hands in which the turn and river occur.
Weevil99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 08:19 AM   #9136
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weevil99 View Post
You seem to be talking about two different things. He's talking about the percentage of players seeing the turn and river. You appear to be talking about the percentage of hands in which the turn and river occur.
We can easily get that number too. But then what would it be compared to? And what would it mean?
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 08:33 AM   #9137
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by pooflinger View Post
if the site is cheating with super users or by rigging the deck who cares .You get the same result you get bent over
True, but this thread is about rigging the deck, not other forms of cheating.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:12 AM   #9138
Weevil99
grinder
 
Weevil99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Waiting for an epiphany
Posts: 620
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
We can easily get that number too. But then what would it be compared to? And what would it mean?
I have no idea what it would mean. My personal experience is the opposite of what he quoted. I see tighter play online than live, although I really don't have much experience live.
Weevil99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:14 AM   #9139
ROCKART
stranger
 
ROCKART's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 13
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I don't think Rockart is R4R, though I think there's a decent chance that Eddie Mush is.

However, a google search for "Rockart and poker" found him at www.pokerisrigged.com. I'm not joking. Same avatar.

Rockart: I'm not sure what your last post was supposed to show. But in any event, read through the thread, and then come back to us.
yes, this is truth.

i even stated in the OPENING LINE OF MY FIRST POST ON THIS FORUM, that i am a moderator on a competing poker forum.

but nice discovery nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
So that's what he calls "a competing forum". snicker

http://www.pokerisrigged.com/showthread.php?t=1881

Exact same post as his first one here, but 06-24-2008. It is copy-and-pasted to here, literally.
refer to above post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
What the hell is interesting about that blurb, and how does that have any relationship to anything discussed in this thread?

Are you suggesting that because EGS claim to be good at SEO that Google is rigged too?
i guess you didnt see the keywords used in their little pitch. words like "control" and "entertainment". after all, this is what online poker is all about - to simulate the 45 minute segments of WSOP broadcasts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papajoey21 View Post
Rockart dont waste your time all they will do is insult you.You see that there is a poll showoing 870 people voted,323 people say they were cheated right.Well I polled 870 people leaving the Rio this year when out there for the world series,poker players only and low and behold not one said they were cheated.In fact I have friends that work at almost every poker room in vegas and guess what,we cant find a single complaint of anyone thinking they were cheated..something smell fishy? So dont let these guys bother you with thier insults because if you look at the amount of posts they have you can tell the have no life and just sit inside where thefeel safe..
i appreciate the solidarity.

though i figured that on an online poker forum, i would find mostly online poker players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
A) Neither of those scandals involved a rigged deck.
i think his point in bringing that up was that the groups YOU trust to regulate these sites went obviously out of their way to ignore and then cover-up the investigation.

the online poker companies and the regulatory systems are too closely interwoven for any kind of objective critique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burden2 View Post
wow just checking in this thread and wow

These defenders just never seem to get tired of the same pointless arguments. They have to get paid to do this. Anything else is just not human nature unless you are talking about the mentally ill. They seem like sane logical guys though, obviously getting paid to combat those who doubt the integrity of online poker.

I am a skeptic of the integrity of online poker. I started sportsbetting, being around a lot of shady people and casino personnel and I know their mentality. That is the basis of my skepticism. And with the current legal climate online poker finds itself in, you are dealing with people very willing to walk a very fine legal line to provide this service. Usually the more legally questionable the service, the more criminal the element is providing it. People like that do NOT like dealing with variance or risk, which they see as something for the punters, not them. That is the basis of my skepticism.

If I am going to check this thread every once in awhile I would be willing to step over to the other side if I could get paid for it. Can one of you guys hook me up? I will start a new account and pick up on the other side of the argument which I think I could argue better than most of the current shills. Just PM me for details. thx
of course. if you could make 1 dollar an hour by doing the right thing, or 3 dollars an hour by doing the wrong thing, why wouldnt you do the wrong thing? thats just business. thats just capitalism.

in fact, throughout this country, and the world, there are hundreds of checks and balances and systems and regulations to prevent business from exploiting consumers.
it just so happens that these online poker companies fall into a void of accountability. they are intentionally housed in areas where there is little-to-no corporate law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
We can easily get that number too. But then what would it be compared to? And what would it mean?
what would it mean?????

did you even read what i wrote?

i type three pages of single line text about how the cards are fixed for big action and you come out with some stupid ass question like this?

im guessing the reading comprehension part of your S.A.T. was a particularly hard section.
ROCKART is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:24 AM   #9140
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
i type three pages of single line text about how the cards are fixed for big action and you come out with some stupid ass question like this?
What you haven't done is shown how such a scheme would make more money for the site. Think about that carefully before you respond, it has been discussed a lot here. Simply saying larger average pots means more rake is not necessarily true, and it absolutely isn't true at medium and high stakes ($2/4 NL and up). And there are other reasons why boards skewed for action would probably hurt the rake at low stakes too. Aside from that, I'm fairly certain that at comparable stakes more players see turns and rivers in live games than online.

Last edited by spadebidder; 10-10-2009 at 09:37 AM.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:32 AM   #9141
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,099
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
yes, this is truth.

i even stated in the OPENING LINE OF MY FIRST POST ON THIS FORUM, that i am a moderator on a competing poker forum.

but nice discovery nonetheless.
twoplustwo and your "competing" site are not quite in the same category.

What you have is a blog.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
of course. if you could make 1 dollar an hour by doing the right thing, or 3 dollars an hour by doing the wrong thing, why wouldnt you do the wrong thing? thats just business. thats just capitalism.
No, that's a badly made " dark futuristic" movie plot. The market forces of capitalism do quite a bit more than you comprehend. Your vision would have companies being able to do anything to anybody without anyone caring or complaining. That is not how it works in the real free market system, regardless of the regulations.

This is even ignoring the fact that nearly all rigged theories including yours would not actually make the site any extra money so what you should be saying is the following

"of course. if you could make 1 dollar an hour by doing the right thing, or 1 dollar an hour by doing the wrong thing, why wouldnt you do the wrong thing? thats just business. thats just capitalism"



Also, as I have said before - all of your stuff is really old. Add a few new things to your manifesto/blog/"competing poker site"
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:37 AM   #9142
ROCKART
stranger
 
ROCKART's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 13
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
What you haven't done is shown how such a scheme would make more money for the site. Think about that carefully before you respond, it has been discussed a lot here.
i think it should be obvious, but maybe i give you too much credit.

more action = more excitement = more players playing more often = more hands = more rake = more yachts the profiteers can purchase

who the hell wants to sit at a casino poker table and fold 10 4 off and 9 3 off for 2 hours when they could just sit at home and KNOW that if they wait long enough, a decent hand will come their way (and in a lot less time than 2 hours) even if they dont end up winning the hand.

if you feed a player a lot of nice starting hands, he will most certainly consider it "more exciting" than sitting at a live game during a dry run.
ROCKART is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:43 AM   #9143
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
if you feed a player a lot of nice starting hands, he will most certainly consider it "more exciting" than sitting at a live game during a dry run.
So now instead of action boards, your theory has changed to the starting hands being manipulated? Even though that is the easiest thing for every player to check statistically and it has been checked thousands of times by players with hundreds of thousands of hands?
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:48 AM   #9144
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKART View Post
i think it should be obvious, but maybe i give you too much credit.

more action = more excitement = more players playing more often = more hands = more rake = more yachts the profiteers can purchase

who the hell wants to sit at a casino poker table and fold 10 4 off and 9 3 off for 2 hours when they could just sit at home and KNOW that if they wait long enough, a decent hand will come their way (and in a lot less time than 2 hours) even if they dont end up winning the hand.

if you feed a player a lot of nice starting hands, he will most certainly consider it "more exciting" than sitting at a live game during a dry run.
Rockart: have you read the whole thread yet? I'm serious that there is a lot of good information in there, especially about how hard it would be to rig the deck in a profitable manner and not get caught. Skim over the filler you want and focus on the substantive debate. It really is interesting and people like Spadebidder (who you've chosen to attack) have done some incredible statistical analysis on a large scale that suggests the major sites are not rigging the deck.

No-one here believes it is impossible that rigging is not going on on the major sites, just that it is unlikely and outside of theories and potential motives, there is very little evidence out there that rigging is going on.

As the pitbull thread indicates (should still be on the first page in this forum), when something nefarious is going on, the combined weight and research of the poker playing community can find problems pretty efficiently. To date, none of that has happened re: rigging. Not to say there aren't other major problems out there, which are properly the subject of other threads.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 09:54 AM   #9145
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Rockart: have you read the whole thread yet? I'm serious that there is a lot of good information in there, especially about how hard it would be to rig the deck in a profitable manner and not get caught.
Even if we assume that the site could skew things enough to profit while keeping it below the detection threshold (very hard to do nowadays with the availability of huge public hand databases) I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to show mathematically how their pet scheme increases the site's profit. Rockart may be up to the challenge I've issued before on this topic. Let me look it up and paste it here....

Here we go:
Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Please describe how this adjustment of a couple % here and there would work, and how it would 1) make significantly more money for the company, while 2) not being readily detectable in large hand databases. This is a serious question.

Keep in mind that accumulating multi-million-hand histories has become common and they are readily available for analysis. There are at least two billion+ hand history databases available that I know of.

I'd really like to hear a design for a scheme that is even remotely plausible and meets those two simple qualifications. If you don't understand statistics and poker well enough to answer the second part, then admit it and say you have nothing but an unsubstantiated hunch. On the first part, I'll make it really easy for you and say you only have to increase the rake by 10% over an honest game (total over time, whether it be more active players, bigger pots, more deposits, whatever. But show the math. )

Go...

P.S. - if you can design a plausible scheme that meets those qualifications and is backed up by math, and isn't easily debunked by posters on this forum, I'll transfer you $100 on Stars or FT.
I'll even give you some help. There are only two ways the site makes more rake, and these two factors are what some of them actually use to make financial projections. The first is the average stake being played. Obviously card rigging isn't going to change that, it is accomplished by game structure, marketing, training aids, average tenure, etc. The other, and only real way, is to have more players sitting in seats on a 24/7 averaged basis. The product of those two factors is directly proportional to the site's rake over time. Average pot size isn't even a direct factor, the site will get the rake as long as the money is churning and until a player goes broke and chooses not to redeposit. Getting the most rake out of a particular player faster doesn't really matter if he then leaves and doesn't put in more money. Consider that max rake is achieved when all players break even all the time, and the money churns until the site gets it all. Making players broke quicker doesn't help.

So there's some tips. Free money for a convincing scheme backed by math.

Last edited by spadebidder; 10-10-2009 at 10:13 AM.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 10:39 AM   #9146
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Thinking about what I wrote above, I've had a flash of inspiration and a novel theory of my own. It would take a pretty complex simulation to prove with all the interacting variables, but if I have time I may attempt it. My epiphany is this: I think it's actually likely that maximum rake over time might be achieved by a fair game. Imagine that!

I'm not even factoring in the chance of getting caught and losing business. I'm just thinking about the interplay of factors, and this may actually be true. Show me I'm wrong.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 10:44 AM   #9147
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Thinking about what I wrote above, I've had a flash of inspiration and a novel theory of my own. It would take a pretty complex simulation to prove with all the interacting variables, but if I have time I may attempt it. My epiphany is this: I think it's actually likely that maximum rake over time might be achieved by a fair game. Imagine that!

I'm not even factoring in the chance of getting caught and losing business. I'm just thinking about the interplay of factors, and this may actually be true. Show me I'm wrong.
I'm always interested to hear what you have to say. But to be intellectually honest, given that now you are putting forth the positive assertion, you shouldn't just throw out: show me I'm wrong.

Can't wait to hear more about your hypothesis though!
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 11:36 AM   #9148
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Thinking about what I wrote above, I've had a flash of inspiration and a novel theory of my own. It would take a pretty complex simulation to prove with all the interacting variables, but if I have time I may attempt it. My epiphany is this: I think it's actually likely that maximum rake over time might be achieved by a fair game. Imagine that!

I'm not even factoring in the chance of getting caught and losing business. I'm just thinking about the interplay of factors, and this may actually be true. Show me I'm wrong.
Well, I can show you one case where you're wrong.

If player A has decided that he will spend a windfall by putting his money on a poker site and playing it but no more and engages in a marathon heads up match with player B who is vastly better player then player B will quickly (in some relative sense) take all player A's money and no further rake will be generated.

If the site even things up by giving Player A better hands (remember we are ignoring the possibility of being caught) then it will take player B more hands to win all A's money and more rake will be generated.

The same logic, mutatis mutandis, applies where more players are involved over more hands.

I don't know from whence this 'epiphany' came but it's hard to see how increasing the length of time it takes for good players to win the money of bad players could possibly not make the site more rake.

Obviously there would come a point where the really good players got sick of being cheated and left but, by the same token, bad players would take a lot longer to get fed up and go.

From a poker site's perspective what they would ideally like are a larger group of very evenly matched players who are prepared to top up their bank rolls from time to time.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 12:00 PM   #9149
Bingo_Boy
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,872
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I dont really expect you people to:
1) provide solid proof of your accusations.
2) provide complete hand history to show something might be wrong.
3) come up with solid theory of how the rigging would work.
4) calculate how much it would generate for the sites.
5) have answers for all the counter arguments as to why sites wouldn't risk it.
6) make well written posts without stupid annecdotes and outright lies

but what really riles me is that in over 9000 posts in this thread I dont believe any of you rigtards has even bothered to put your hands into PT/HEM and post a suspicous looking stat. I've obviously given up on expecting full disclosure on an unbiased sample that might actually indicate something is wrong but you can't even be bothered to cherry pick something to try and convince everyone? REALLY?

ROCKART, the latest addition to the rigtard revolution, turns up and posts a 3000 word essay complete with topic headers and screenshots and it turns out part of his theory is simply that people are dealt more "nice starting hands" than they should be. How many times could you have checked this outright lie in the time it took you to write it? In fact, forget about writing it. It took you longer to copy and paste it form your "competing forum" than it would take to fire up PT/HEM and just check.

WTF is wrong with you people?
Bingo_Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 12:09 PM   #9150
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
WTF is wrong with you people?
1) They are ******ed.
2) Erm, that's it ...
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive