He keeps putting riggies in the category of "all customers" or more subtly "your customers" from the company perspective when in reality riggies are not customers worth anything to the poker rooms. This too applies to all industries, and a lot of time the unimportant customers believe their value is far more than it is, and you will always see them use generalities as the boredom guy does in all his posts. No understanding that different customers have different value.

This industry they do a lot of analytics of every type of customer, and while "riggie" is not one of those profiles, the reality is that the money made on most riggies is trivial, if anything. The genuine riggies tend to not be worth much ( I did a breakdown of dacy's value a few times for instance), so when they add in their constant whining then they become marginally valueless or even worth getting rid of (which is what a few sites correctly did with dacy), and that is a concept that riggies will never quite understand. They don't get it. They never have and they never will.

Basically, if literally "all customers" were genuinely unhappy that is an issue for a company in this industry (see Lock Poker the last year or two they existed). If riggies are unhappy that is complete non-issue. Riggies will always be unhappy and they are relatively low value customers with their play as well, so their happiness/satisfaction for their personal paranoid concerns are irrelevant, which is why riggie stuff barely gets talked about outside riggie threads.

Since comparisons to restaurants seems to be a thing for now, a riggie is akin to a customer that comes in once a year or so and while there constantly complains loudly about the service, the food and the need for 20 refills of the free rolls and water. Making that customer happy is pointless and one is better off showing them the door and having them never come back. The other customers will be happier as well with that choice.

I love your newfound sense of humor Mike. That was hilarious.

As for the rest of your comment, just like Microstakes you don't get to set the agenda. I've answered those questions before. It's obvious that others already know my position. If you're bothered, look it up. But you're not. You've no interest in what my thoughts are.

So feel free to delete my posts, or ban me. You've been itching to do it from my very first post, with your childish warnings about creating too many posts. If your little Mod power trip makes you feel better, go for it.

Newfound?!

You really know how to hurt.

Do you promise not to reappear with another account if/when I ban you?

Stars has had rigging complaints for almost 20 years, and remain the industry leader. Peril indeed.

Are you really this bad at reading comprehension? I'm not advocating for anything.

Um, wait, what?

Worse than you picture it.

ConspiracyTheoryJuice has not been able to grasp any context or post basically. About the only thing they've demonstrated to be worse at is answering simple questions. There is the constant attempt at socratic questioning. The difference is Socrates was inquisitive and sought answers/solutions while provoking thought in others.

ConspiracyTheoryJuice is more like a balloon filled with air and when they post it's very much like pinching the opening of the balloon tight and pulling it wide as you let the hot air escape.

How's their market share going these days? You (deliberately ?) forgot to mention that. And maybe they were just the best of a bad bunch all along?

I said it doesn't matter if you're advocating or if you've just come to the that conclusion. Maybe it's you that needs help with your comprehension? You read a lot of books, so it's more likely you're being deliberately obtuse.

Face it Bobo, your idea that sites just ignore the complaints of their customers is idiotic. That has been pointed out to you by a couple of us now. Suck it up.

What's funny is that you think I give enough of a **** to return to this place. Just as you were wrong about me first time around Mikey boy (supposedly someone else using a different account), you're wrong again. Enjoy your little mod power trip because literally nobody else on the planet gives a **** whether you ban me or not. Me included.

And no, it's newfound, thicko. If I wanted separate words, it would have been "newly found". Hope that helps.

LOL, this is awesome. Like some kind of "gotcha" - "but their market share has dropped the last couple of years!".

Yes, it has. Now let's go through the history of this. I've been reading claims of Stars (and pretty much every other site) being rigged since I've been on this forum for the last 14 years. In that time, Stars passed sites like Party and Paradise to the top spot, which they have now held for many years. Not just to top spot, but also to a huge share of the market. All of this climb happened while the rigged claims kept on coming. If you think their decline in market share over the last couple of years is due to all these years of rigged claims finally coming back to haunt them, I'm not sure what to tell you. But I'll add another example for you - we probably see the most rigged claims these days, at least in the site threads, for PokerBros and GGPoker. I'm not sure how PokerBros is doing for traffic, but GGPoker has apparently climbed to #3. If I had seen a correlation between rigged claims and the fate of the sites in question, I'd agree with you. But I've seen no such thing.

I comprehended it just fine, thanks. Since I already told you I wasn't advocating, it didn't make any sense to say "if I was advocating". And if you had properly read my previous posts, you'd already have known that anyway. I'm just giving you what I believe are the reasons sites don't have a lot of interest in your ideas.

Oh, wow, a couple of you have pointed it out? Gosh, I guess you must be right then. Never mind that there's no evidence that rigged claims have any effect on sites' bottom lines - if someone else has supported you, I guess I need to just suck it up and accept that their current actions are idiotic. Perhaps you should apply at some of these sites and help them retain and/or increase their business.

To be perfectly clear here, it's not like there would be zero benefit to a site trying to market themselves as transparent. There are all sorts of ways to try and gain traction in the market. Lower rake, more rakeback, better promotions, guaranteed tournaments, quick cashouts, software transparency, and many others. I just believe, after years of observation on this forum, that software transparency is unlikely to be the most effective use of marketing dollars or money for site improvements. And the people who know much better than I do, those who work at the sites, would seem to agree.

Absolutely.

Even if the riggies were capable of understanding the code, and found it clean, they would simply say that the clean code they saw was not the code that was actually being run, and that is why their pocket aces never held up.

The sites do go a very small way to appease the concerns of those with RNG concerns by having their RNG's 'certified', but that is actually a completely pointless exercise from the point of view of riggies, as, again, users cannot tell if the RNG in use is the same as the once certified, and as I have pointed out many times, it is all but impossible to rig an RNG to make it do some specific thing in a poker game. If you were of such criminal intent, you'd either simply ignore the RNG completely, or just run it again and again until you got the results you wanted.

As you say, there far far, far, better ways of increasing site traffic.

If your only consideration is marketing, then I agree. There's a better ROI in paying Negreanu a few million every year, than caring very much about your customers. To reinforce the point, high profile site crashes during WSOP events will have almost no effect on traffic going forward. Sites can ban winning players without any repercussions. Likewise, it matters not whether the RNG (or the deal algorithm to be precise) is rigged. While demand is still there, sites can do what they want. I'm not oblivious to that!

I'm saying that for me to trust a site with my money, they need to put some effort into proving the fairness of their game. Clearly that's a minority opinion and I'm ok with that.

In the end, it's not about marketing, it's about a culture of openess and honesty with your customers (to a certain degree). Currently, there isn't a single poker site which matches that criteria. If there's nothing to hide, why not be open? What benefit is there to just pretending that concerns about the RNGs don't exist?

This is such a newb thing to say . Their market share has dropped some because they gutted their rewards too much and other companies took advantage of that, which is what happens in marketplaces. I moved a good chunk of my business to some of those other sites as well, because I and the people I work with like money. For what it is worth, the company that owns Stars has seen their stock price double in the past year, but you likely did not know that. You likely have no idea what company even owns Pokerstars. Such a newb .

Good chance Stars will try to change that in the future, which will be fine for players as well. None of this has anything to do with riggie whining, so kind of funny you think riggie whining had an impact on anything. As Bobo mentioned - GG has the most riggie whining here these days and their market share has increased quite a bit. That mean that riggie whining is good for business? .

Always so amusing to see newbs like you say things like this. As usual you are being vague and general, but let's break it down some.

Complaints from riggies are completely irrelevent. The only company that put riggie needs first and created a site for riggies failed within a week during the boom period. Every other company places no value on them. Now, customers of Stars did leave due to their rewards being gutted and while those customers may not have been all whiny like riggies, they spoke with their wallets and other sites took advantage of that by offering deals that got them to change. That had literally nothing to do with riggie complaints or concerns. That is simply how markets work. Your RnG concerns played zero part of it. You are not part of the "their customers" that matters. You do not matter.

I post all of that knowing you will not understand it.

Aw, someone is having a hissy fit. You obviously care for some reason as you have posted in this thread hundreds of times (you literally post nowhere else any more) even though you quit this industry when you could not compete. If you really do not care then prove it - do not post here for the rest of the year. Now, nobody will really notice or care, but at least then you will at least back up something you say for the first time.

All the best.

You're not the sharpest tool in the shed, so I'll say it again. You don't get to set the agenda. I'll post when and as often as I please and you will have zero input into that. Comprende? And if I backed up something I said, I'd be the first person in this thread to do so.

Now if you're looking for hissy fits, look no further than that yappy little ***** Mike. He's on his sad little mod power trip because he simply can't handle the debate. Never could.

But I feel we're veering off course. This thread is, after all, about rigged RNGs. So let's get back on topic.

Like everything else you comment on, your ability to comprehend anything is pretty much nil.

The topic of the thread is poker is rigged debate. You'll fin it is in quotes. The same kind of meaning in the following....

ConspiracyTheoryJuice is a really "smart" guy.

It's quite the opposite of the words used. The thread consists of people that have more feelz than Desitin to soothe and those that giggle at them.

When someone posts a gripe or complaint about a site with evidence attached, then it never ever would get moved here. Why? Because their is something to discuss....hard evidence. The common feature in this thread from posters issuing concerns is the complete and utter disregard for any proof and steadfast denial of any that exists.

You don't actually really say anything other than state some microscopic issue to believe exists, demand to be proven wrong, then toss your boa over your shoulder declaring "I taught them".

Coin Poker has a transparent RNG. They also have traffic equating to one player for every firing neuron you have. Why is their RNG being transparent not drawing in more players? For one, players do not need a site to tell them the deal and RNG is fair. They can just analyze their hand histories. Kind of makes sense huh? I don't need you to back up anything you say because I've seen you have zero credibility. It matters none, because the proof is ascertained without your help.

If your concern was valid and you had evidence, you could start a thread, make your argument, show supporting evidence and you'd get a discussion. Since you don't ever have any support, nor willing to back up a single claim you've had such as a simple screenshot of 500K hands with one player, you belong here.

Here, let me try and offer some honest help for you so you can learn to post better and along the lines of fluid thought. Check this site out and you're welcome.

https://subscriptions.hookedonphonic...row&rdrRsn=404

You behave and react in exactly the way I want, because it is trivially easy to manipulate and expose the empty shell that you are in terms of knowledge. You also tilt kind of easily .

There is no agenda to control, we each have our own. Mine is basically what I just said, and you are among the easiest to handle in that regard, because you lack any real business and industry experience and knowledge, yet you think you know stuff. You are the definition of a donk . You know it as well.

Sure, post 5,000 more times in this thread this year if you like. You still will have zero impact in the industry, because riggie concerns are a zero. You were the one who said

and I simply pointed out a way you could prove that. I also said I knew you lacked the courage to do it, because in the end you are just a standard little whiny riggie and this thread is what you need to whine in your own way.

If you got banned you would be back with a new account to whine here some more about an industry you failed at and quit. 100% on that, and good chance that will eventually be tested and I will be proven right, yet again, with predicting your behavior.

Well, at least you admit you have never done that, unlike many of the rest of us. You are inferior, so glad to see you accepting your role.


If you had any idea of his posting history (you do not, because you do not bother learning about things you are involved in) you would know he uses that routine to just trigger little whiners like you. We all have our ways, and you are a real soft target. Welcome to your world.



Sure, feel free to give a business breakdown of why a room should do your specific (list them) suggestions to remedy you specific riggie concerns. I proposed that before but you avoided that topic which is exactly what this thread is about, so go ahead and ignore it again after suggesting you will now talk about it. That's your thing - never backing up anything you say . Such a newb.

All the best.

See how easy you are to manipulate You are such a newb donk, so indeed you should carry on only posting in this thread where your concerns will get all the industry attention they deserve.

All the best.

You are not here for a debate of facts. You are here for an argument of your circular reasoning. Can you post 1 irrefutable fact that online poker is rigged?

I miss jungmit

I miss hornykiss

I miss kelvis

I miss pkdk

I miss dacy

LMAO the industry did not GROW during this time. It had an explosive phase that will and is fizzling out first and fore most. Secondly it didnt even come close to peak 2006-2010 traffic so you clearly dont understand or have been around then to compare. Or maybe you just want to try to boost up your point about "growth" this year. There was no growth because it was not sustainable and not retained. A better word, especially in terms of business acumen would be anomaly.

Also so what company do you work for? Since you clearly just defined that you work for or own a company in the gaming industry that i would assume is tied to online poker by the way you speak in absolutes like only your opinion matters or is valid. Everything you say forward from this point on should be thrown out and taken with a grain of salt because youre clearly bias and it shows through everything you say.

The industry has been matured for along time, theres a reason why it never graduated legally to the US market.

Customer retention especially long term is a key factor to online gaming sites. Fish come and go, but fish also dry out and thats when games and industries die.

You really dont have any business acumen and it shows through in every post. Shill away.

The easiest thing for sites to do is to anonymize all hands and data and post all data for users to do their own independent analysis. Why is this not ok? Why is it not even ok to open source their algo code? If the algo is completely random and doesnt favor anyone or any sub set of anything, then open sourcing it for research should show absolutely zero flaws or statistical anomalies. I also think it would expedite their entrance and confidence in the US markets and ROW for them to show no funny business complete transparency.

Why is transparency bad? Theres a ton of demand for transparency this is something that every single player is open to, ive never met a player that has been against transparency and shown that sites are fair and they should trust them. Here you go do your own research why is it not ok to ask to be able to do your own research? Why is it ok for the sites to investigate themselves?

Absolute power corrupts and the sites have absolute power when it comes to how the algos and their deals actually work 100%.

The explosive part is the growth. Obviously it will not maintain that growth, but the games now are about 10-20% bigger than they were on Stars before the pandemic and other sites have gotten quite a bit bigger and maintained a larger size than last year.

I get that you want it to collapse, but that is not happening. Sorry for you.


You are the only one making a comparison in that regard between 2006 and 2020. The industry, while still online poker, is completely different now then it was then. Different operators, different games, different regulatory needs, different demands from players.

As I said, this industry is in the maturity phase of its life cycle and 2006 was the growth cycle. They are different things.


Nah, not quite. There was some growth in the industry because some of the people who came back continue to play as a result. The fact there was some growth, helped a lot by a pandemic, does not mean the industry is in a new growth cycle. It is still in its maturity phase, so over time it will go back to that progression, albeit a bit higher up due to the pandemic.



I have run my own company for well over 15 years in this industry. I organized a large sized casino bonus whoring group (which we all knew had a much much shorter life cycle within this industry) for a while and then transitioned to staking and affiliate work (actually did the affiliate stuff since 2005 as well).

I have made money on more accounts and rooms than you likely knew ever existed, but I understand that it makes it easier for people like you to think that I get paid to post in a riggie thread by mysterious industry sources than simply doing it because its fun tweaking paranoid people like you. I simply go along with your beliefs and say - no problem, I get paid a lot to post while you do not. Works for me!



Cool, feel free to post your specific riggie concerns and how the sites should specifically react to it and how that would have an impact in this industry. The boredom guy will never do that, so perhaps you will demonstrate your business acumen. All I have is many years of success in this industry, so I will take my track record for now. Feel free to prove me wrong with your upcoming business analysis and proposals .

There is no market demand for it.


Coinpoker does this. Nobody cares. Nobody plays there. There is no market demand for this.

A riggie made similar points in Nevada when they held public meetings about the upcoming regulations of this industry in that state. He got politely waved off. Nobody cared. There is no demand for it.

That is a false question. If there is no demand for your specific transparency need then spending a lot of money addressing it is impractical, and if you would like to see my riggie list you will see a whole bunch of different needs for transparency from each of them, and the thing is - if they were given - the riggies would still think it was rigged and nobody else would care about it.



I know riggies like you believe saying stuff like this helps you cause, but it shows the weakness of your concerns as well. You never breakdown why your specific needs would change anything, and the reality is the marketplace has told you that they do not care. You are just a dude yelling in a riggie thread. If you want to get changes made then show specifically how your changes would matter. You have never done that and rooms which did try some of your stuff (Real Deal Poker CoinPoker) are failures, so the market has spoken. Class dismissed.

All the best.

There is demand, im the industry liek the 100s of thousands behind me asking for the same thing...

Just cause you get rake back doesnt mean youre the opinion of the industry and get to determine what the market wants or dictates.

You really hold yourself that high in regard that you speak for the entire market? To me youre speaking for the operators that waved the market off. Since when did the market say they dont want transparency>?

You speak from a pedestal with no facts you just say its been done no one wants it etc etc.

i want it every one wants transparency and confidence and pls link me to the studies that i and others have asked for links to the data and conclusions.

Your opinion isnt the only one and it certainly doesnt matter to the whole. Please stop speaking for everyone wheh you and bobo and mike haven only the mods are theones that hold your side of the argument. The collective whole all holds one opinion and you 3 guys just shoot everyone down and act like youre the end opinion and only one that matters abd why is it because the mods can ban and just shut people up that dont agree with their pov. isnt that funny.

89k post and its just thousands of people over a decade + that have the same exact anectdotal experience and feelings of shadyness. these peolpe just stop playing they have enough, you can only question someones intelligence for so long before they say enough. the only ones that you retain long term are the problem gamblers.

Ive had enough of this industry and the people in it. Theres a reason online poker hasnt been legalized and regulated its cause its so ****ing shady that theyd have to destroy it all with shut downs and seizures to build it back up correctly and then there would be no confidence in the market.

The reason it has not been regulated, nationwide in the US, is tax escrow and ability to seize accounts via liens. There is also separation of powers from state to state and federal government.

You ate also the brilliant mind making the dopey list about WPN and their brush with insolvency. You know zippo about their corporate structure and how/who finances them.

Making loud assertive posts doesn't lend any credibility, truth, or value to your drivel. See taterhead ConspiracyTheoryJuice for a keynote speaking on the subject of blabbering with no logic or truth

Hundreds of thousands behind you, lulz....you must get your math skills from the boring bloke with a HH of 500K hands with one person.

There are not hundreds of thousands of your kind asking for what you want. Many just want to whine about stuff. Many have openly said they will never trust anything a site will tell them.

If you genuinely think your industry transparency idea will be desired in the marketplace then please create a new thread in this forum or the NVG forum with your specific proposal, detailing why it is needed, and ask create an online petition to get people to sign it. If you get hundreds of thousands of signatures then present your ideas with that to back them to the companies in this industry, because your voice will represent what a large portion of the market wants (that is not yet provided) and you will be the one that organized it. Similar things were done here and they worked, like when turbo SnGs had the same rake as regular ones (when SnGs were a bigger thing). A ton of people here organized their thoughts, presented data, and Stars lowered the rake of the turbos back then.

Show me something like that instead of using vague "more transparency is better" slogans that mean nothing.


I told you how to show that consumers want it in the way you think. Go ahead and do it.

Well, you want it, so that is 1 signature. I will be shocked if you ever propose anything specific. Utterly shocked if you ever tried to get online signatures to back your ideas. Beyond utterly shocked if you got more than 50 or 100 people to sign it, even with people doing it multiple times.

Dude, not much more to say. If you think the industry consumers demand what you are talking about then show it.

See, this gives a hint of the problem with your demand. You want others to do a ton of work to meet your personal whatever needs. If they did that the odds are you would dismiss it, and certainly other riggies would just have their own needs they want met.

Why would any company spend a ton of time and resources to meet the needs of a few whiners who will never be satisfied?

I told you what to do, feel free to team up with the Boredom riggie and organize your thoughts into a proposal you pitch to all consumers in this industry. I suggest that knowing it has 0% chance of happening.

No opinion in this thread matters in the industry, yours and mine included.

I explained a method for you to potentially have your opinion matter in this industry. Do I think you will do that? Of course not, but you have the way you can, and if you tried then you can rationalize away why it got nowhere after.

I told you how to mobilize this collective whole you think exists to enact changes in the industry. Again, I did this knowing you will never do it.

Do what the boredom riggie did and what I suggest to most riggies like you. Quit all forms of gambling and find something else to do with your life. Since you will never do what you need to change it, you should not participate in an industry you do not trust. Pretty simple .

Use whatever rationalization you need for your emotional state, but in the end your best choice is quit. Never play again.

All the best.

Um, who's gonna tell him?

Look at his posts in the WPN thread....he is clueless but shouts it out from the rooftops

Yeah go ahead and look at my posts. Doesnt make me wrong.

Its 2020 and you all are arguing that the only thing in the world that is not corrupt and 100% fully on the up and up is online poker and off shore gambling.

LOL.

I never asked any one to do any work for me Mr. Monteroy. I asked you to simply provide a link to the sources of the studies and analysis that you continue to say have been done and prove me wrong. If theyre already done and you know of them and can prove them, why cant you simply provide a link?

Again tho, online poker is the one bright light in a world of darkness that is pure. Notice how you 3 are the only ones on your side arguing against the sea of posts of everyone that has the same feelings? Some people are infinitely smarter and successful at life that when they feel like theyre being cheated at something they do as a hobby theyll just never come back again. How many of those people never even knew 2p2 existed but played on stars and ftp? how many of those people actually get to 2p2 ***** and then just never play again cause in their gut they know theyre right and theres nothing they can do since the sites arent regulated and theres no recourse but not to play if thats how you feel?

why is the onus on the player? why is the onus not on the sites to remove all doubt.

I hate this industry and i hate this site. Youre all so caught up in your own bubble that you dont see the rest of the world and how shady the whole industry is.

Enjoy yourselves.

Im sure you all are mad successful in between your decades of thousands of posts on an internet poker forum. The writing is on the wall.

Riggies say that nonsense all the time, which is amusing, but nobody is arguing that the industry is fully up and up. Fact is that many of us shills work hard in fighting and uncovering genuine issues in this industry, and while I can look at your LOLposts in the WPN threads of you yelling at the clouds, you can look over the posts I did in the Lock Poker and Pure Poker and Pitbull Poker and threads of other sites that were bad actors.

Riggies like you always got in the way in those threads to those of us making the points as to why those particular rooms should not be trusted.



Sure you did. You are asking sites to change how they do things to create anon hands of every hand played of every format (maybe you can see what happens in Badugi that way) to be provided to every player. You think that magically just happens, or would work be needed to accommodate that silly request that you use within the generalized"more transparency is better" schtick. Given that your request would cost a lot of time and money for all these sites to do, the logical question for those sites would be whether their customers even demand it or not.

I then suggested how you can prove that they demand it (knowing you would never do that). If you do not want to do the whole online survey thing, because riggies hate work, then simply start a new thread here with a poll yes or no if it is practical and list your specific plan and why it is needed in the industry. See how that goes.


See, you are asking me to do work for you as well to disprove your vague negative.

Tell you what, you do your online poll/petition and get at least 500 people to back what you say (which should be easy with the hundreds of thousands within the horde you talked about) then I will go to work and find a link that will deal with your concern that you will then dismiss and change your goal posts. You can even vote a ton of times yourself with different accounts if you like (as riggies do in the poll in this thread).

Fair deal. I will do the work you request for your issue after you do a simple equivalent level of work for your issue.



I assume you think using language like this helps you. It does not. Your posts are a mess in every thread you post in. Same thing tends to happen with other riggies like you. Eventually one of you will figure out what the constant is in all of that, though perhaps not .

Tons of dirt in this industry. Riggies tend to ignore the real dirt and worry about dirt that does not exist and the marketplace does not care about. That's all.

Well, your future online petition or poll will certainly prove that then . Get to work!

Riggies have been saying that for a long time. All of them have vanished pretty much. You will as well, but do not worry - a different riggie will say it in the future and be as emotional at that time. I said that to past riggies like you.


Stop playing online poker and stop posting here and find other thing sin your life that are less stressful. Try whittling,

Before you go be sure to vote in this riggie poll (it can use all the help it needs) and ask Mike Haven for your prize as the 90,000th post. It is fitting that it was a riggie who gets that honor. Congrats!

All the best.