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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:02 AM   #8926
spadebidder
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Well before I do, lol, nobody has been prosecuted for playing online poker or operating a poker site, correct?. Party Poker agreed to pay fines b/c they were deceptive on their charge statements.
Not really. The failure of the third-party processors to use the correct charge code is not what the Party settlement was about, even though it was one of the facts. Party agreed with the U.S. Attorney that they had violated the Wire Act. Their sportsbook operation did in fact violate the wire act, that was not disputed. They chose not to litigate whether that law also applied to poker, and pulled out to protect their stockholders, as they were the only publicly traded company to ever offer poker to U.S. players. They also voluntarily pulled out as soon as UIGEA passed, before the Wire Act charges were even settled. Most legal opinions still say that poker doesn't violate the Wire Act, but that has never yet been tested in court.

Bottom line, Party was not prosecuted for operating a poker site. They were threatened with prosecution over violations of the Wire Act, which may or may not apply to poker. That point was never decided, and still isn't. The DOJ stated opinion that they will apply the Wire Act to poker sites, keeps sites from taking stupid risks and operating from within the U.S. and no one has challenged this in court yet afaik. But there isn't much dispute that no law makes it illegal for individuals to play on foreign sites over the Internet, except in the few states that have such laws.

Last edited by spadebidder; 10-07-2009 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:08 AM   #8927
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Cool re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
No, it is not.

It's a pretty fundamental premise of statistics, and, indeed, standard deviation is proportional to sample size.

You really need to either take a high school statistics class, or type 'standard deviation' into Google or Wikipedia.

Here's the link to the Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation



Sure. They have a view. Other people have a different view.

The way Western legal systems operate is based on the concept that if someone (or the Government) accuses someone else of breaking the law, they (basically) start a court case alleging this. Yet, AFAIK, not one person has been prosecuted for playing online poker in the USA, and, AFAIK, not one person has been prosecuted for running an illegal online poker site in the USA.

How can you claim that it is illegal, a flagrant breach of the laws, but are unable to point to a single single court case that has prosecuted this activity? This is yet another irrational accusation without evidence in a thread full of irrational accusations without evidence.

If we want to talk about stuff that is 'rigged' and 'biased', how about we talk about the obvious rig and bias in this thread by people who make accusations of online poker being unfair, but having no evidence to support their claims. There's obviously not a random correlation between believing online poker is rigged and having no evidence to support the claim. It's as if there's a conspiracy of people who randomly make stuff up to throw mud at others, without having the integrity or decency to provide evidence to support their false and offensive accusations.

You really need to either take a high school statistics class


Keep babling about standard deviation and question my knowledge of statistics if it makes you feel better (by the way advanced statistics is part of my MBA).

If we want to talk about stuff that is 'rigged' and 'biased', how about we talk about the obvious rig and bias in this thread by people who make accusations of online poker being unfair, but having no evidence to support their claims. There's obviously not a random correlation between believing online poker is rigged and having no evidence to support the claim. It's as if there's a conspiracy of people who randomly make stuff up to throw mud at others, without having the integrity or decency to provide evidence to support their false and offensive accusations.

I do not disagree that a lot of people without EV graphs, lots of hands and knowledge of variance claims they just know onlinepoker is rigged. This is bad, almost as bad as someone insisting onlinepoker is 100% clean without anything but AP and UB to back this claim up (ironi).

You want evidence online poker is rigged. Players only have their graphs and handhistories to back their need for security up. They have no rights, there is no control, if it turns out to be rigged no one goes to jail and so on.

Really you should start demanding Stars provide evidence they are using a RNG 24/7 instead of blindly defending them because you do not know for sure if they use a RNG 24/7 you just think they do.

(by the way this is not about Stars but online poker in general I just mention Stars because it seems the lizards loves this site)

Last edited by Eddie Mush; 10-07-2009 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:24 AM   #8928
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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Originally Posted by nuts busted View Post
This part
No, that says mouse movement influences the RNG. It does not say MY mouse movement determines MY cards. Huge difference. As stated before, that would not be an actual RNG at all.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:37 AM   #8929
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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Originally Posted by eastern motors View Post
What stakes are you losing at online? I think most people here think 1/2 on PS/FTP is tougher than live 5/10.
I play NL 10 up to NL 600 but mostly limit from 1/2 6 max to 30/60 6 max. I am not saying that this is why I lose but I read a lot of stuff about this and thought that I would put it out to the 2+2 world.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:00 AM   #8930
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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Originally Posted by cap217 View Post
I play NL 10 up to NL 600 but mostly limit from 1/2 6 max to 30/60 6 max. I am not saying that this is why I lose but I read a lot of stuff about this and thought that I would put it out to the 2+2 world.
Found your leak
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:03 AM   #8931
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post

You really need to either take a high school statistics class


Keep babling about standard deviation and question my knowledge of statistics if it makes you feel better (by the way advanced statistics is part of my MBA).
So you're going to fail it, then?
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:04 AM   #8932
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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Originally Posted by wigan rl View Post
Found your leak
seems that everytime I go like this I get the card:

up up down down left right left right rightclick leftclick

I win
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:09 AM   #8933
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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Originally Posted by cap217 View Post
seems that everytime I go like this I get the card:

up up down down left right left right rightclick leftclick

I win
So do it all the time.

[/THREAD]
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:23 AM   #8934
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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Originally Posted by cap217 View Post
Guys, this was just for discussion.... I am not saying at all that I am onto something here but there is a slight chance that I am... .000003%.
You almost had it...but you clicked on a '3' by mistake at the end there.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:25 AM   #8935
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
I do not disagree that a lot of people without EV graphs, lots of hands and knowledge of variance claims they just know onlinepoker is rigged. This is bad, almost as bad as someone insisting onlinepoker is 100% clean without anything but AP and UB to back this claim up (ironi).
Well, it is not the same, but who here has ever said that online poker is 100% clean? Far from it, with all areas that involve money there will be all sorts of crime.

Collusion, fraud, bots (real not super), and rogue sites (that shut down and take player money) are genuine threats in this industry, ones that need a lot of attention.

This is why you will see many of the so called "shills" here asking why a player chooses to play on ponzischeme.com when someone posts how they lost their 50k roll there. Quite a few threads about collusion and forms of fraud as well.

Sure we may not take the threat of mystery superbots or the random paranoid theory of the day seriously, because those are generally just people with their own weird agendas with no evidence whatsoever. Yours is no different - your weird issue is "let me see the RnG running 24 hours a day. Here look at this website I blindly follow" Others were timing issues or entropy effects or mafia issues or superbots etc etc.

If we consolidated all the soapbox people's theories it would be a list several hundred long, many of which directly contradict each other.

Know what? I am happier they are more serious about real crimes like collusion and fraud then the stuff you and your fellow riggedologists create.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
You want evidence online poker is rigged. Players only have their graphs and handhistories to back their need for security up. They have no rights, there is no control, if it turns out to be rigged no one goes to jail and so on.
Millions of players with databases is a powerful pool of information. While not all use it, some are quite freakish in analyzing the data, which is how a lot of the crimes we have seen have been caught, both big and small. For every superuser scandal there are tons of collusion rings that were caught by players looking at their databases.

A site would have to go through this minefield as well if they chose to somehow alter how the deal was done in an intentional way, while of course needing to kill off all the people who knew about it as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
Really you should start demanding Stars provide evidence they are using a RNG 24/7 instead of blindly defending them because you do not know for sure if they use a RNG 24/7 you just think they do.
We should also ensure that they are not using a ADD mouse click scheme to screw people.

We should also check to make sure that people who play on laptops are not being screwed.

We should also check that people who just completed bonuses are not being screwed.

We should also check that people who play badly are not being helped.

We should also check that big stacks do not win too much.

We should also check that small stacks do not win so much.

We should also check for undetectable super bots

Part of the charm of this thread is there will always be new and fun things that we should check.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:58 AM   #8936
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
No, it is not.

It's a pretty fundamental premise of statistics, and, indeed, standard deviation is proportional to sample size.
Assuming you are talking about the sum of independent random variables, which makes sense given the context, standard deviation is not proportional to sample size, it is proportional to the square root of sample size.

Incidentally, Eddie Mush is probably being deliberately vague and talking about the standard error of the mean, not the standard deviation.

To take a coinflipping example, you are saying that the s.d. of the number of heads in 100 flips is higher than the s.d. of one flip. He is saying that the s.d. of the proportion of flips that came up heads is lower after 100 flips than after one flip. You are both correct.

If this was related to EV graphs then Josem's interpretation is better. The lines represent the absolute difference between observed and expected, and 'on average', diverge as sqrt(n). They do not converge as they are not proportions of anything.

Last edited by Pyromantha; 10-07-2009 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:58 AM   #8937
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

Is this a level, or do people actually think like this? Not knocking you OP, I truly do hope you get your OCD cured. I think I may have a little OCD myself at times.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:58 AM   #8938
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
We should also check for undetectable super bots
Done that.

Didn't detect any.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:43 PM   #8939
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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Originally Posted by Online Veteran View Post
Is this a level, or do people actually think like this? Not knocking you OP, I truly do hope you get your OCD cured. I think I may have a little OCD myself at times.
Having OCD does not prevent one from realizing that one is acting irrationally, it just makes it very difficult to not act in that irrational manner.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:10 PM   #8940
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

what's a level?
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:17 PM   #8941
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
Keep babling about standard deviation and question my knowledge of statistics if it makes you feel better (by the way advanced statistics is part of my MBA).
This is either a lie or you haven't even started it yet. Otherwise I can't possibly understand the amount of fail you are providing in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
I do not disagree that a lot of people without EV graphs, lots of hands and knowledge of variance claims they just know onlinepoker is rigged. This is bad, almost as bad as someone insisting onlinepoker is 100% clean without anything but AP and UB to back this claim up (ironi).
Apparently English is not part of your MBA...or maybe it is considering how little you seem to know of statistics.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:20 PM   #8942
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

Maybe subconsciously you WANT to lose because you hate yourself, causing your hand to move the mouse in such a way as to give your opponents better cards. heh
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:27 PM   #8943
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
This is either a lie or you haven't even started it yet. Otherwise I can't possibly understand the amount of fail you are providing in this thread.
It always amazes me how many low post count posters claim to have advanced maths or stats degrees when called on their abysmal knowledge of the subjects.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:29 PM   #8944
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

How do you think the best tourney players do it? Obv they get the railbirds to spam whatever card they need into the chat and once they can no longer chat I assume the railbirds begin moving their mice in the shape of the card that must hit on the river. Sure, overall that would have little to no effect...but with the Archangel Network...and 15 satellites orbiting the planet... well, let's just say it works.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:29 PM   #8945
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Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

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what's a level?
A tool that you can use to determine whether something is sloping or level.

Commonly filled with spirit of some sort.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:32 PM   #8946
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Keep babling about standard deviation and question my knowledge of statistics if it makes you feel better (by the way advanced statistics is part of my MBA).
Stop devaluing my future MBA by the post. Thanks in advance. Also LOL if you are referring to a basic MBA stats course as "advanced statistics"

Did your MBA explain what the threat of corporate indictment does to the price of a stock even if that threat is not followed up on? How about on using unverified random internet comments as a research source?
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:02 PM   #8947
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Probabilites and such like.....

The website I play on appears to deal a ridiculous number of pocket pairs. I would say especially big pocket pairs, but obviously these hands will end up being played and being shown more often than the smaller pocket pairs, so for now I'm going to assume all pocket pairs.

I realise the odds of getting any particular pocket pair are 220/1. So, you'd expect to receive each particular pocket pair once every 221 hands. If I play 6-man tables, does this mean that each pocket pair should appear at the table every 36/37 hands or so, or is it not as simple as that ?

I reckon hands are appearing far more frequently than they should be and wondered if anyone has any ideas about how I could investigate this.

I'm not suggesting online poker is rigged or any of that, but at the same time I don't believe we should take everything we're told as gospel.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:03 PM   #8948
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Re: Probabilites and such like.....

when you raise and everyone folds that means no one was dealt a pocket pair
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:28 PM   #8949
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Re: Probabilites and such like.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatedToPretend View Post
The website I play on appears to deal a ridiculous number of pocket pairs. I would say especially big pocket pairs, but obviously these hands will end up being played and being shown more often than the smaller pocket pairs, so for now I'm going to assume all pocket pairs.

I realise the odds of getting any particular pocket pair are 220/1. So, you'd expect to receive each particular pocket pair once every 221 hands. If I play 6-man tables, does this mean that each pocket pair should appear at the table every 36/37 hands or so, or is it not as simple as that ?

I reckon hands are appearing far more frequently than they should be and wondered if anyone has any ideas about how I could investigate this.

I'm not suggesting online poker is rigged or any of that, but at the same time I don't believe we should take everything we're told as gospel.
Hmmm ...

Believes that far too many pocket pairs are being dealt.

Isn't suggesting OLP is rigged.


There's something a little inconsistent there.

In before merge.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:29 PM   #8950
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

In after merge.
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