Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-05-2009, 11:50 PM   #8851
DonkoTheClown
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 741
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonduluboy View Post
Many bad beats on online pokersite due to more player playing on it compare to live casino.
OMG, You have solved the riddle and single handedly vanished this whole 3 year long thread to the recycle bin once and for all answering the question without a shadow of doubt that online poker is absolutely legit!!!

I am loading up all of the sites with big deposits so that I may rain free chips down on everyone who would like some free money!!!

Where have you been during this whole discussion? We could have used our time to play poker instead of wasting our time talking about game security!

(giggity giggity goo)
DonkoTheClown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 11:59 PM   #8852
jeanpaulvalley
grinder
 
jeanpaulvalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: grinding
Posts: 682
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

No site uses a players own mouse movements to determine what cards that player gets. If they did, you could just bruteforce various mouse movement combos until you found one that gave you AA, then do that every hand.
jeanpaulvalley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 12:29 AM   #8853
Xorc1st
grinder
 
Xorc1st's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 662
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

no.
Xorc1st is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 12:36 AM   #8854
bronx bomber
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,110
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

Are you swirling the mouse in a counter clockwise motion twice around the call button at the river before clicking?

I was a losing player utilizing this method and then I switched methods. I found a foolproof method to click/call at the river to guarantee a win at showdown every time..PM me for details, Idi.
bronx bomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 12:49 AM   #8855
alexstat
veteran
 
alexstat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Got your Clutch sample size!
Posts: 3,442
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
LOL!

There's an idea, a website that connects to web cams so that we can see thugs sneaking into the server room with monkey wrenches and floppy disks...lololol

See! They just rigged it! Did you just see that?!

I am so fickle, after being all in with JJ 4 times in 4 tournaments last night and having KK show up behind in the same exact position every single time to bust me, I dont know what to think of online poker. I am sure that this is possible, but why to me? WHY? WHY? DID THEY DOUBLE DOOMSWITCH ME? WHY??? oh why...zzzzzzzz hicup...fvvvvt...
alexstat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 01:22 AM   #8856
ktulu22
veteran
 
ktulu22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Respect My Steez
Posts: 2,561
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

lol donkaments
ktulu22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 01:34 AM   #8857
Cry Me A River
Orange is the new Green
 
Cry Me A River's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 23,790
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

lol mouseaments
Cry Me A River is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 01:35 AM   #8858
IcyFlops
grinder
 
IcyFlops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stone Mountain, GA
Posts: 570
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpaulvalley View Post
No site uses a players own mouse movements to determine what cards that player gets. If they did, you could just bruteforce various mouse movement combos until you found one that gave you AA, then do that every hand.
When you really don't know and are just tossing out some wild statement and asserting as fact that doesn't make it true.

Doesn't mean the OP is on to anything either, but you are still wrong.

from
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/


SHUFFLE
"Anyone who considers arithmetic methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." - John von Neumann, 1951

We understand that a use of a fair and unpredictable shuffle algorithm is critical to our software. To ensure this and avoid major problems described in [2], we are using two independent sources of truly random data:

user input, including summary of mouse movements and events timing, collected from client software
true hardware random number generator developed by Intel [3], which uses thermal noise as an entropy source
Each of these sources itself generates enough entropy to ensure a fair and unpredictable shuffle.
IcyFlops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 02:10 AM   #8859
jeanpaulvalley
grinder
 
jeanpaulvalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: grinding
Posts: 682
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyFlops View Post
When you really don't know and are just tossing out some wild statement and asserting as fact that doesn't make it true.

Doesn't mean the OP is on to anything either, but you are still wrong.

from
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/


SHUFFLE
"Anyone who considers arithmetic methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." - John von Neumann, 1951

We understand that a use of a fair and unpredictable shuffle algorithm is critical to our software. To ensure this and avoid major problems described in [2], we are using two independent sources of truly random data:

user input, including summary of mouse movements and events timing, collected from client software
true hardware random number generator developed by Intel [3], which uses thermal noise as an entropy source
Each of these sources itself generates enough entropy to ensure a fair and unpredictable shuffle.

Hi, could you point me to the bit of your quote that says they use a player's mouse input to determine his personal cards?

When you skim someone's post and don't get their actual point, it doesn't make your reply valid.
jeanpaulvalley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 05:36 AM   #8860
NooooBingo
grinder
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Send Me
Posts: 626
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
I want evidence that a RNG is running 24/7
How about you get evidence that an RNG is NOT running 24/7? What..wait...you can't? Wow, I guess this means online poker ISN'T rigged. Case closed.
NooooBingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 06:30 AM   #8861
JohnnyIllini
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 565
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Josem you are far more well written than I am (I have had the pleasure of speaking with you via e-mail before under my username, which is JohnnyH----), but I do consider myself rather adept at statistics. On a lark, I have analyzed over 5,000 hands at hyper turbo tournaments, and have found a characteristic that wins far more often than it should. It is not the tournaments being "rigged" per se, but rather a playing characteristic that is rewarded (I plan on compiling a much larger sample size when given the time, but the p of this happening even with what I have is less than <.001).

I think the world of you and Pokerstars (where I play exclusively) and don't want to post what I have publicly, but I would be glad to PM you with what I'm talking about. I think it helps to explain why certain players thrive in these settings (Jorj95 might be a good example) who have absolutely failed miserably in live deeper stack structures. I hope all is well brother...

---Johnny
JohnnyIllini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 06:47 AM   #8862
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyIllini View Post
Josem you are far more well written than I am (I have had the pleasure of speaking with you via e-mail before under my username, which is JohnnyH----), but I do consider myself rather adept at statistics. On a lark, I have analyzed over 5,000 hands at hyper turbo tournaments, and have found a characteristic that wins far more often than it should. It is not the tournaments being "rigged" per se, but rather a playing characteristic that is rewarded (I plan on compiling a much larger sample size when given the time, but the p of this happening even with what I have is less than <.001).

I think the world of you and Pokerstars (where I play exclusively) and don't want to post what I have publicly, but I would be glad to PM you with what I'm talking about. I think it helps to explain why certain players thrive in these settings (Jorj95 might be a good example) who have absolutely failed miserably in live deeper stack structures. I hope all is well brother...

---Johnny
This is very kind of you, and you're welcome to PM me anytime. You don't need an invitation

You're also welcome to post your views, statistics and analysis here. There's nothing hidden here: There's no particular secret about our RNG process, and given that the random input is in binary, I can't imagine any circumstances under which any particular group of hands is favoured in any way.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 07:36 AM   #8863
NooooBingo
grinder
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Send Me
Posts: 626
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyIllini View Post
Josem you are far more well written than I am (I have had the pleasure of speaking with you via e-mail before under my username, which is JohnnyH----), but I do consider myself rather adept at statistics. On a lark,I have analyzed over 5,000 hands at hyper turbo tournaments, and have found a characteristic that wins far more often than it should.It is not the tournaments being "rigged" per se, but rather a playing characteristic that is rewarded (I plan on compiling a much larger sample size when given the time, but the p of this happening even with what I have is less than <.001).
---Johnny
5k hands isn't a big enough sample to accurately measure probability.
NooooBingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 07:40 AM   #8864
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NooooBingo View Post
5k hands isn't a big enough sample to accurately measure probability.
Well, it depends what you're measuring and what your results are.

If it is AK vs QQ, and AK wins 5k out of 5k times, then there's probably something wrong.

If it is AK vs QQ and AK wins 2550 out of 5k times, then there's probably nothing wrong.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 07:55 AM   #8865
JohnnyIllini
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 565
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
This is very kind of you, and you're welcome to PM me anytime. You don't need an invitation

You're also welcome to post your views, statistics and analysis here. There's nothing hidden here: There's no particular secret about our RNG process, and given that the random input is in binary, I can't imagine any circumstances under which any particular group of hands is favoured in any way.
Cheers Michael! I will definitely take you up on an uninvited PM or two in the future . Are you going to be at any of the APPT events by chance? I was the first to qualify for the Philippines event (small brag), and I'm thinking of continuing on to Sydney in early December.

As for what I have discovered, it involves the aggressor winning far more than his or her fair share. I will certainly compile an even bigger sample size before I report back, but what I have so far is somewhat alarming. Thus my reference to Jorj95 (who by all accounts is a pretty nice guy, and I was just using him as a well known reference) and a few of the other successful hyper turbo regs who are more apt to simply shove with any two regardless of the tournament stage from an unraised button, SB, etc.
JohnnyIllini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 08:40 AM   #8866
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyIllini View Post
Cheers Michael! I will definitely take you up on an uninvited PM or two in the future . Are you going to be at any of the APPT events by chance? I was the first to qualify for the Philippines event (small brag), and I'm thinking of continuing on to Sydney in early December.
I'll be at/around APPT Sydney in some form (given I live in the city)
Quote:
As for what I have discovered, it involves the aggressor winning far more than his or her fair share. I will certainly compile an even bigger sample size before I report back, but what I have so far is somewhat alarming. Thus my reference to Jorj95 (who by all accounts is a pretty nice guy, and I was just using him as a well known reference) and a few of the other successful hyper turbo regs who are more apt to simply shove with any two regardless of the tournament stage from an unraised button, SB, etc.
With all due respect, I simply don't believe you

I'm willing to wager you a beer that it is truly random, and that your results are in error in some way.

The RNG is just a binary stream, which is then converted into numbers. I simply don't believe that it is possible to favour any particular course of action over another: not only does the RNG have no concept of this, but further, the deck is set prior to shuffling. Given that the 'aggressor' doesn't exist until after the shuffle is finished, it isn't possible for the aggressor to affect the shuffle.

To use a metaphor, it's like saying that the wine affects the grapes. Of course, it can't - wine doesn't exist until after the grapes are destroyed. The wine is created by the grapes, and consequently, cannot affect the grapes.

The same thing applies in your survey: The aggressor can't possibly affect the shuffle, since the deck is already shuffled and set.


Obviously this only applies to PokerStars and other sites which have a set shuffle
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 11:14 AM   #8867
Eddie Mush
newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 26
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NooooBingo View Post
How about you get evidence that an RNG is NOT running 24/7? What..wait...you can't? Wow, I guess this means online poker ISN'T rigged. Case closed.
I can not get access to site servers and therefore have no chance of finding any evidence of anything, which of course you very well knew when posting this immature answer.

On the other hand a pokersite can easily set up an independent control function that could visit on a random basis to see what is cooking on the server thus making it very likely a RNG is running 24/7.

They could ask 3 well respected professors in a relevant field to conduct these random visits (or whatever setup would satisfy players concerned with integrity)

All sites have chosen not to.


Do not get me wrong, today I played two hours of 5-10$ on the site that in my opinion are most likely to be the next in line after AP and UB so I still give online poker to much credit (or maybe I have to as it is my main source of income).

But after AP, UB, Dan Nedelko, who seems to be well informed, the lawsuit against FT, Russ Hamilton and the AP-cheater still playing golf instead of being behind bars revealing the shady secrets of online poker to escape lifetime, the lies about the UB scandal made by well known poker professionals, UB still not having reimbursed all players that were cheated, a few sites ignoring US law and still providing service to US customers (and on and on) it seems to be urgent for online poker to provide some hard evidence they are using a solid RNG 24/7.

Do you not agree?


And also do not miss this point from the PokerEV tread:

variance is bad if you want to prove your RNG is working but variance is unavoidable. Systematic increase in difference between expected and actual performance is a clear sign of malfunctioning though.

Maybe this from a government controlled business gives a hint:

"Also, Romano had no qualms with talking about the "secrets" of the gambling
industry even though Larry Volk the person at his company who programmed the chips to avoid giving the winning hands had been murdered: Volk was shot to death at his house in Las Vegas shortly before he was scheduled to begin giving testimony about how he programmed the chips to cheat."

If there is a bug in PokerEV I am sorry for questioning the integrity of the non-government controlled online poker industy situated in countries with limited law enforcement.......



So if government controlled gaming industy riggs to earn a few bucks extra despite the fatal consequences if caught, onlinepokersites without any control, in violation of laws and with the prospect of earning millions of dollars in extra revenue if winning players gets 50% taken off their winnings, are clean as new fallen snow?

You really think I am the one with the burden of prove?
Eddie Mush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 11:21 AM   #8868
cap217
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pushing Strings and Pulling Buttons
Posts: 3,170
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

Guys, this was just for discussion.... I am not saying at all that I am onto something here but there is a slight chance that I am... .000003%.
cap217 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 11:30 AM   #8869
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
I can not get access to site servers and therefore have no chance of finding any evidence of anything, which of course you very well knew when posting this immature answer.

On the other hand a pokersite can easily set up an independent control function that could visit on a random basis to see what is cooking on the server thus making it very likely a RNG is running 24/7.

They could ask 3 well respected professors in a relevant field to conduct these random visits (or whatever setup would satisfy players concerned with integrity)

All sites have chosen not to.


Do not get me wrong, today I played two hours of 5-10$ on the site that in my opinion are most likely to be the next in line after AP and UB so I still give online poker to much credit (or maybe I have to as it is my main source of income).

But after AP, UB, Dan Nedelko, who seems to be well informed, the lawsuit against FT, Russ Hamilton and the AP-cheater still playing golf instead of being behind bars revealing the shady secrets of online poker to escape lifetime, the lies about the UB scandal made by well known poker professionals, UB still not having reimbursed all players that were cheated, a few sites ignoring US law and still providing service to US customers (and on and on) it seems to be urgent for online poker to provide some hard evidence they are using a solid RNG 24/7.

Do you not agree?
Everyone agrees there are shady characters in this industry (like there are in most industries). That's why many people suggest not to play on tiny unknown rooms. Online casinos were even worse in that regard.

Still, none of this, even the UB stuff has anything to do with whether the deal is random or rigged which is what this thread is about.

All the UB/AP super user stuff was discussed extensively here as it was a huge issue, and it was a serious discussion, but again it had nothing to do with whether the deal was random.


Your posts read like a guy who watched the 60 minutes special, clicked on a website of a guy you think is special and became a bit obessed with an issue and then started mixing unrelated stuff (whether the RnG is fair) with actual issues (fraud, super users etc).


Basically you are filling the holes of your paranoid thoughts about one area in an industry with factoids from other unrelated "criminal" stuff in the same industry. This is also why most of the replies you get are not too serious.

Oh, and I assume we are in agreement that Lizard People - case closed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
You really think I am the one with the burden of prove?
In proving that the deal is not random? Of course. That a rhetorical question?

Is it your burden of proof to show that Lizard People do not exist or mine to show that they do exist?
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 11:54 AM   #8870
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
minor technical hijack: is this thread jumping for anyone? I can't get it to stay on the post I want to see, its automatically jumping up a few posts. It's the only thread I'm having this problem on.
This still happening to me on this thread only. On two different computers from two different locations. No one else having this problem? I guess not since no one has responded!
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 12:16 PM   #8871
DoubleFly
Pooh-Bah
 
DoubleFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Still Bloggin, Stakin, & Affiliatin
Posts: 5,983
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

The correct conclusion you should be drawing is that you are technically a mediocre poker player. 5/10 live is probably as difficult as 1/2 online, as a rule of thumb. Not trying to be harsh - it's just the way it is. However, it is remotely possible you have some keen player-reading skills which helps your live play, but from your OCD hypothesis, I doubt it. :-P
DoubleFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 12:18 PM   #8872
cap217
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pushing Strings and Pulling Buttons
Posts: 3,170
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

maybe.... I am still a winning player long term but I do play bad at times online, especially when I move up.
cap217 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 12:32 PM   #8873
nuts busted
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 349
Re: Am I Just Bound to Lose? Along with everyone else who does this....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpaulvalley View Post
Hi, could you point me to the bit of your quote that says they use a player's mouse input to determine his personal cards?

When you skim someone's post and don't get their actual point, it doesn't make your reply valid.
This part

Quote:
user input, including summary of mouse movements and events timing, collected from client software
nuts busted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 01:23 PM   #8874
Eddie Mush
newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 26
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I will choose not to comment on the nonsense about 60 minutes, lizards and paranoia.


In your opinion the Industry has no burden of proof the burden is mine.

We totally disagree. Even if it was possible for me to prove anything it still would be in the best interest of the industry to speak the old truth, control is better than trust. Especially for those sites hoping to get back into USA.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Everyone agrees there are shady characters in this industry (like there are in most industries). That's why many people suggest not to play on tiny unknown rooms. Online casinos were even worse in that regard.
We agree.




I declare I am not paid directly or indirectly or have any economic interest in any sites apart from playing on them as a regular customer.
Eddie Mush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2009, 01:24 PM   #8875
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
This still happening to me on this thread only. On two different computers from two different locations. No one else having this problem? I guess not since no one has responded!
No, I'm not seeing that problem.

I have seen the effect you've described but it's always been cleared simply by refreshing the page.

Very odd that you should see it on two different computers.

(Mandatory: Rigged, obv.)
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive