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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:43 PM   #8801
tk1133
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...64/index7.html

Here go tell them yourselves
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:59 PM   #8802
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
As to what I think...
What's the "..." supposed to indicate? Are you trying to be mysterious? What do you think?
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:45 AM   #8803
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Your reading comprehension isn't so good. No one in that thread said it, they were quoting someone's comments from a different site.
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Old 10-04-2009, 06:42 AM   #8804
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Desperation must be setting in. Evidence, we're so big on evidence. You show me where I condoned this guys statement or said "look I told you so" like you just quoted me as saying. You guys are the experts right? What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevent thread? I copy and pasted a statement, and even wrote "don't shoot the messenger" in the edit section. So why don't you pm the original messenger and tell him what you think. Get over yourself.
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Dude, take a deep breath and relax. Did I insult your mother or something? I'm gonna be the bigger person and try to help you in particular. QPW and Mont can learn and seek more help on this as well. But step 1, identify the problem...

Borderline Personality Disorder. People with borderline personality disorder are unstable in several areas, including interpersonal relationships, behavior, mood, and self-image. Abrupt and extreme mood changes, stormy interpersonal relationships, an unstable and fluctuating self-image, unpredictable and self-destructive actions characterize the person with borderline personality disorder. These individuals generally have great difficulty with their own sense of identity. They often experience the world in extremes, viewing others as either “all good” or “all bad.” A person with borderline personality may form an intense personal attachment with someone only to quickly dissolve it over a perceived slight. Fears of abandonment may lead to an excessive dependency on others. Self-multilation or recurrent suicidal gestures may be used to get attention or manipulate others. Impulsive actions, chronic feelings of boredom or emptiness, and bouts of intense inappropriate anger are other traits of this disorder, which is more common among females.

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I know your own thoughts and opinions are almost worthless but you could always just remain silent instead of constantly quoting random crap from the internet that you think might make you seem more intelligent than you are.

"What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevent thread?"

1) How is this guys opinion "news"? You are trying to make it news by repeatedly quoting it. In doing this it suggests that you do "condone" his opinions and think think that we should hear about them.

2) As you have been repeatedly told, this thread is about the possibility of sites rigging the deal to make a larger profit. You already posted your "news" in the relevent thread then posted it here as well to annoy people with more of your dregs quoted from the internet.

3) Dude, take a deep breath and relax. Did I insult your mother or something? I'm gonna be the bigger person and try to help you in particular:

Warning Signs
Parents should be aware of the most frequent signals of learning disabilities. Does your child:

•Have difficulty understanding and following instructions.
•Have trouble remembering what someone just told him or her.
•Fail to master reading, writing, and/or math skills, and thus fails schoolwork.

© 2009 Mental Health America | formerly known as the National Mental Health Association
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:01 AM   #8805
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by vm1124 View Post
Does anyone have cliffnotes/ summary of this thread? I am interested in reading some of the arguments for and against the riggedness of online poker. Seems to be some compelling arguments both ways.
PRO*: Online poker is rigged!

CON: Why do you think that?

PRO: My aces got cracked last night.

CON: Mine did, too. But then they won 3 times in a row. Seems about right to me.

PRO: But I lose all the time with aces.

CON: Selective memory.

PRO: No it isn't.

CON: Post your hand histories, then.

PRO: <no reply>

-------

PRO: Online poker is rigged.

CON: How so?

PRO: The sites make good players lose more than they should and bad players win more than they should. This keeps the money floating around and earns more rake.

CON: Do you have evidence of this?

PRO: I see it all the time. Way too many suckouts. You don't see that in live poker.

CON: Selective memory.

PRO: No it isn't. There are way too many people who see the same thing.

CON: Here is an analysis of a million online hands. The board cards are within a bajillionth of a percent of expectation.

PRO: Cherry picked hands.

CON: No, the million hand sample is what we have available right now during the debugging phase. Later, the same analysis will be run on the entire 600 million hand data base. If it shows the same thing then, what will you say?

PRO: <no reply>

------

PRO: Online poker is rigged.

CON: No, it isn't you freaking moron.

PRO: Prove it.

CON: Prove what, that online poker isn't rigged or that you're a freaking moron?

PRO: Aha! You can't prove that rigging is impossible.

CON: What? No. No, I can't prove it's impossible because it's not impossible. You're moving the goalposts again. The burden of proof is on you. Plus, you're stupid.

PRO: <no reply>

------

PRO: Superbots.

CON: Huh?

PRO: The sites have bots that can see your cards and take your money that way, in addition to generating more rake by manipulating the deck.

CON: Somebody would have noticed that by now, or some employee in the know would have ratted them out by now.

PRO: Madoff, etc.

CON: What? Apples and oranges.

PRO: You're blind, or you're a thieving shill for the poker sites.

CON: You're an idiot.

<crickets chirping>

------

PRO: Online poker is rigged.

CON: ARRRGGGGGHHHHH!

==================================================

That brings us up to date. I left out a few details, but not that many. Hope that helps.

* Credit to batair for the PRO/CON format for these cliffnotes.
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:37 AM   #8806
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

i think this animated gif sums up this thread perfectly

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Old 10-04-2009, 08:33 AM   #8807
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Weevil99 View Post
PRO*: Online poker is rigged!
Well done!
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Old 10-04-2009, 09:24 AM   #8808
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Nice cliffnotes.
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:23 AM   #8809
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
Your reading comprehension isn't so good. No one in that thread said it, they were quoting someone's comments from a different site.
And? Go to the thread where I found the statement and bash him then? LoL.

Originally Posted by tk1133
Desperation must be setting in. Evidence, we're so big on evidence. You show me where I condoned this guys statement or said "look I told you so" like you just quoted me as saying. You guys are the experts right? What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevent thread? I copy and pasted a statement, and even wrote "don't shoot the messenger" in the edit section. So why don't you pm the original messenger and tell him what you think. Get over yourself.

..." I copy and pasted A STATEMENT" Where does that conflict w/ my reading comprehension
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:26 AM   #8810
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
I know your own thoughts and opinions are almost worthless but you could always just remain silent instead of constantly quoting random crap from the internet that you think might make you seem more intelligent than you are.

"What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevent thread?"

1) How is this guys opinion "news"? You are trying to make it news by repeatedly quoting it. In doing this it suggests that you do "condone" his opinions and think think that we should hear about them.

2) As you have been repeatedly told, this thread is about the possibility of sites rigging the deal to make a larger profit. You already posted your "news" in the relevent thread then posted it here as well to annoy people with more of your dregs quoted from the internet.

3) Dude, take a deep breath and relax. Did I insult your mother or something? I'm gonna be the bigger person and try to help you in particular:

Warning Signs
Parents should be aware of the most frequent signals of learning disabilities. Does your child:

•Have difficulty understanding and following instructions.
•Have trouble remembering what someone just told him or her.
•Fail to master reading, writing, and/or math skills, and thus fails schoolwork.

© 2009 Mental Health America | formerly known as the National Mental Health Association
Interesting. What makes your thoughts and posts worthwhile? Do you have any credentials to justify your superiority complex? If my posts are so worthless, why do you respond? How come you guys don't go to the threads where other people say these things and "own" them.
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Old 10-04-2009, 02:20 PM   #8811
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Interesting.
1)What makes your thoughts and posts worthwhile?
2)Do you have any credentials to justify your superiority complex?
3)If my posts are so worthless, why do you respond?
4)How come you guys don't go to the threads where other people say these things and "own" them.
1) You asked for peoples thoughts after quoting something completely irrelevant and I gave you my thoughts. You then responded by trying to insult me by quoting more irrelevant stuff from the internet and I did the same to try to illustrate how pathetic you are.

2) What credentials would you like to see? You continue to post nonsense in this thread to annoy people and then complain when people respond to your posts in a condescending manner. Have you done that analysis on your hands yet or are you gonna continue to post irrelevant nonsense?

3) I respond because you annoy me. I believe other people have had to physically put you on ignore because your posts are so infuriating it is difficult to resist the temptation to respond.

4) I'm sorry if you feel "owned" (a phrase I have never used in this context before this post) but I dont know any other threads / posts where people are as infuriating as you. I have however posted my original response to you in the NVG thread which you quoted from (before your response above). I haven't posted any of the subsequent nonsense because it has no more relevance to that thread than your original post had to this thread.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:21 PM   #8812
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
1) You asked for peoples thoughts after quoting something completely irrelevant and I gave you my thoughts. You then responded by trying to insult me by quoting more irrelevant stuff from the internet and I did the same to try to illustrate how pathetic you are.

2) What credentials would you like to see? You continue to post nonsense in this thread to annoy people and then complain when people respond to your posts in a condescending manner. Have you done that analysis on your hands yet or are you gonna continue to post irrelevant nonsense?

3) I respond because you annoy me. I believe other people have had to physically put you on ignore because your posts are so infuriating it is difficult to resist the temptation to respond.

4) I'm sorry if you feel "owned" (a phrase I have never used in this context before this post) but I dont know any other threads / posts where people are as infuriating as you. I have however posted my original response to you in the NVG thread which you quoted from (before your response above). I haven't posted any of the subsequent nonsense because it has no more relevance to that thread than your original post had to this thread.
Excellent, so know you now how I feel...
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:44 PM   #8813
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Lately all I see in this thread is

This message is hidden because tk1133 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because tk1133 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because tk1133 is on your ignore list.

With some in-between posts no longer arguing about the topic, but instead pointing out how asinine tk1133's posts are. That's sort of tautological imo.

This thread used to be interesting.
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Old 10-04-2009, 06:05 PM   #8814
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
This thread used to be interesting.
It's in a lull right now. A new crop of rigtards should be around soon. But if you really want to spice it up give us another teaser from your research!
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:19 PM   #8815
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
It's in a lull right now. A new crop of rigtards should be around soon. But if you really want to spice it up give us another teaser from your research!
Here's an update. First, I was working with a large sample of NLHE cash game hands from one major site that turns out to allow an all-in loser to muck no matter how the hand played out. The loser of a preflop all-in hand can muck at showdown whether they were the all-in or the caller of the all-in. Despite this being contrary to standard rules, that site allows it and it happens on over a third of the preflop all-in hands. Thus observed (datamined) hand histories don't contain those hole cards and those hands can't be included in an equity analysis. This creates a bias in the hands we know because the mucked ones we don't know are selective. So the analysis is not valid for that site. Now I'm working with Indy to prepare a database importer for another major site that won't have that problem. We'll still have several hundred million hands to look at, but they should be unbiased. I've also inquired about getting some anonymized hand histories directly from the first site, with the hole cards included. I don't know yet if that will pan out.

On the board card pattern analysis that I previewed, I haven't finished that code yet, but I've already found some very interesting card removal effects that I'm in the process of evaluating. Since we only see the flop about 60% of the time in cash games, and we only see the river about a quarter of the time, the selective folding reveals some interesting patterns in the boards that are dealt. This means that an analysis of board cards for randomness is not straightforward when looking at enormous samples, as small removal effects become very noticeable. These will turn out to be interesting.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:57 PM   #8816
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Thanks for the update, I'm impressed with the attention to detail. Appreciate the hard work!
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:20 AM   #8817
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by okiehustler View Post
Bad beats are part of the game. I understand that. But after absorbing more than my fair share on Poker Stars I switched to Full Tilt six months ago. The first few months were much better over on Full Tilt.

Now Full Tilt is worse than Poker Stars ever was. The past month has been brutal. Tonight I've had pocket aces six times. All six times I lost to someone with a lower pocket pair.

I can't tell you how many times (at least 100 times the past thee weeks) where someone needs one card, especially two or three hours into a tournament, and they hit when odds are 90 to 95% in my favor.

You tell yourself that's poker until it happens time after time after time.

I enjoy playing poker online but I'm about ready to give it up. There doesn't seem to be a site to where it plays out like a casino. You see bad beats in a casino but NOTHING like Full Tilt and Poker Stars back when I played over on that site.

Curious as to others observations. Is there a site that's on the up and up or is it time to retire from online poker where you start to get the feeling the deck literally is stacked against you?
Many bad beats on online pokersite due to more player playing on it compare to live casino.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:15 AM   #8818
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Tonduluboy View Post
Many bad beats on online pokersite due to more player playing on it compare to live casino.

Last edited by Markusgc; 10-05-2009 at 03:16 AM. Reason: when will you be posting in the trade thread?
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:29 AM   #8819
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
And? Go to the thread where I found the statement and bash him then? LoL.

Originally Posted by tk1133
Desperation must be setting in. Evidence, we're so big on evidence. You show me where I condoned this guys statement or said "look I told you so" like you just quoted me as saying. You guys are the experts right? What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevent thread? I copy and pasted a statement, and even wrote "don't shoot the messenger" in the edit section. So why don't you pm the original messenger and tell him what you think. Get over yourself.

..." I copy and pasted A STATEMENT" Where does that conflict w/ my reading comprehension
You gave us that link and told us "Here go tell them yourselves". Well, there is no "them", it's one guy, and he hasn't posted on 2+2, so we can't go to that thread and tell them ourselves. You've made a few posts about that thread that seem to indicate you think that Dan Nedelko himself posted on 2+2. That's why I said your reading comprehension wasn't very good.

Some guy made an account called "Dan Nedelko" on TMZ. He may or may not be Dan Nedelko, and he was just commenting on an article, so there's no way to have a conversation with him. You bring the link here, and for what purpose? It's pretty hard to give an informed opinion when we don't know who he really is, and he's provided nothing to substantiate his claims. I suppose we could discuss it, but since you refuse to say what you think of it, that doesn't seem possible either. So why exactly did you post the link?
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:10 AM   #8820
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Hard evidence?

http://pokerevsoftware.com/forum/index.php?topic=848.0
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:32 AM   #8821
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Here's an update. First, I was working with a large sample of NLHE cash game hands from one major site that turns out to allow an all-in loser to muck no matter how the hand played out. The loser of a preflop all-in hand can muck at showdown whether they were the all-in or the caller of the all-in. Despite this being contrary to standard rules, that site allows it and it happens on over a third of the preflop all-in hands. Thus observed (datamined) hand histories don't contain those hole cards and those hands can't be included in an equity analysis. This creates a bias in the hands we know because the mucked ones we don't know are selective. So the analysis is not valid for that site.
If you've already performed an analysis on hands from this site, I think in the interest of full disclosure you should publish the results. Of course you'd want to include an introduction explaining the obvious selection bias in the data and how it affects the analysis.

The worst that could happen is that it would set off an epic and extremely entertaining slugfest in this thread, but that's one of the main benefits of this thread in the first place.

Quote:
On the board card pattern analysis that I previewed, I haven't finished that code yet, but I've already found some very interesting card removal effects that I'm in the process of evaluating. Since we only see the flop about 60% of the time in cash games, and we only see the river about a quarter of the time, the selective folding reveals some interesting patterns in the boards that are dealt. This means that an analysis of board cards for randomness is not straightforward when looking at enormous samples, as small removal effects become very noticeable. These will turn out to be interesting.
There is a subtle selection bias here, as well, although I'm not sure what effect it might be having. No matter what, I'm looking forward to the results.

This is interesting stuff, spade. Thanks for the enormous work you're putting into it.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:51 AM   #8822
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Eddie Mush View Post
[ ] sample size of 1 is hard evidence
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:52 AM   #8823
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I honestly can't comment...
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:04 AM   #8824
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'd be interested in the formula behind these EV calculators.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:43 AM   #8825
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...64/index6.html

"24. So many of the comments in here are completely uninformed. I've been in the Online Gaming inustry for 7 years. Without naming specific companies I can definitively guarantee you a few things:

1. Bots run rampant on numerous high profile sites.
2. Many of the networks out there will monitor you and your winnings, play behaviour and adapt shuffling algorithms accordingly.
3. The assertion that 1/3 of all players win is stupid. An online poker room profits from RAKE and not from the wins and losses of the players. Think about it, if 1/3 of poker players win 2/3 of them lose. That was by FAR the stupidest comment I have heard.
4. Bot exist in these online poker rooms to keep the hands going, thus increasing the rake and the overall profit of the poker room.

I'm not sure why I had to comment on it but I read some pretty stupid uninformed and ignorant comments there from "professional" online poker players. There is a reason these poker rooms make money and clearly 99.99% of your poker geniuses have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Posted at 2:13PM on Oct 2nd 2009 by Dan Nedelko"

it does appear the guy is what he says http://dannedelko.com/.
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