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Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-03-2009, 05:21 AM   #8776
solucky
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
What country is that?
germany we have a law since 1.1.2009 that make playing poker crime, gouverment dont do many action so far but the first players are catched.

So far there was mothing in the courthouse but after our law all winning will be confiscated and the same ammount as fine.

That means in the worst case 200 000 winnings will be confiscated and you get a 200 000 fine = lifelong broke

Added the first EU samples that allow a monopol for gambling, i hate it from the view freedom bit it no problem for me if they ban poker.

Like stockmarkets more last years and look a bit to sport betting.
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:43 AM   #8777
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Superbots would be easily detectable. You simply examine hand histories for the site under suspicion and check for:

a) Idents with absurdly high win rates.
b) An imbalance between players who only ever play a small number of hands who are overall winners and those who are losers.

It all comes straight back down to the 'E' word.

There's nothing 'mystic' about superbots and they would be very easy to detect.
Superbots or other magical software creatures can always be adapted in the imagination to remain undetected even if logic gets tossed aside while doing so. Have the superbots only win at .01 BB/100 hands more than average so they do not get detected and only on 3 days a week at night etc etc, only have a few hands per thousand be superbotted - you know that type of imaginary nonsense that they come up with thinking it will avoid detection.

My point is not defending superbots themselves, as they like all the other made up stuff are flawed in some basic ways. However, as a rigged theory it would generate more money for a site if somehow it was true, which cannot be said about things like action flops. Sure, people assume action flops would make the site more money when in reality it would likely cost them money long term as average rake per hour dropped (given the fewer hands played).


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Originally Posted by solucky View Post
germany we have a law since 1.1.2009 that make playing poker crime, gouverment dont do many action so far but the first players are catched.
Guess all those Intellipoker meetings will have to be in secret locations.
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:57 AM   #8778
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

poker is not rigged, PokerTracker is rigged it sends whole cards to their staff, so they always know what you have and suck out on you, since i don't use it i am a big winner...
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:02 AM   #8779
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

My aces have a 23 % win rate and I never slow play them. I also only play .10/.25 but seriously, I don't believe it is rigged but something is up when these people ago all in on a gut shot or flush draw against a set and they hit it every time.
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:31 AM   #8780
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Sub-Zer0118 View Post
My aces have a 23 % win rate and I never slow play them. I also only play .10/.25 but seriously, I don't believe it is rigged but something is up when these people ago all in on a gut shot or flush draw against a set and they hit it every time.
Uh oh....You went there..."Release the Hounds..."
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:54 AM   #8781
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Uh oh....You went there..."Release the Hounds..."
Ok, I'll release them! Good sir/madam, would you kindly post some proof of your statement? We have in the past have had posters make similar kinds of remarks, though none have backed up their assertions. Some may have just remembered things wrongly and when the looked at the actual results found that they were not as they thought. Others simply made up percentages and cherry picked hands. Still others played their hands very badly and blammoed their poor results on a rigged site. If you would be so good as to provide backup for your assertion, we would be able to start evaluating whether something may be wrong or not.

Please do not be afraid of my hounds, they only bite posters who make ridiculous claims with nothing behind them.
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:04 PM   #8782
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Please do not be afraid of my hounds, they only bite posters who make ridiculous claims with nothing behind them.
Which is why tk1133, sooperfish and stevieboy (a.k.a. Rounding4Rent) have that rather chewed look.
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:06 PM   #8783
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Sub-Zer0118 View Post
I don't believe it is rigged but something is up when these people ago all in on a gut shot or flush draw against a set and they hit it every time.
So, tell us what you think may be 'up' to account for this perceived injustice if the site is not rigged.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:15 PM   #8784
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

"24. So many of the comments in here are completely uninformed. I've been in the Online Gaming inustry for 7 years. Without naming specific companies I can definitively guarantee you a few things:

1. Bots run rampant on numerous high profile sites.
2. Many of the networks out there will monitor you and your winnings, play behaviour and adapt shuffling algorithms accordingly.
3. The assertion that 1/3 of all players win is stupid. An online poker room profits from RAKE and not from the wins and losses of the players. Think about it, if 1/3 of poker players win 2/3 of them lose. That was by FAR the stupidest comment I have heard.
4. Bot exist in these online poker rooms to keep the hands going, thus increasing the rake and the overall profit of the poker room.

I'm not sure why I had to comment on it but I read some pretty stupid uninformed and ignorant comments there from "professional" online poker players. There is a reason these poker rooms make money and clearly 99.99% of your poker geniuses have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Posted at 2:13PM on Oct 2nd 2009 by Dan Nedelko"

I copy and pasted this from an NVG thread about full tilt being sued. Thoughts?
Release the hounds...

Last edited by tk1133; 10-03-2009 at 02:18 PM. Reason: Don't shoot the messenger
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:53 PM   #8785
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I sold, ill never play another hand online, ty.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:53 PM   #8786
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
"24. So many of the comments in here are completely uninformed. I've been in the Online Gaming inustry for 7 years. Without naming specific companies I can definitively guarantee you a few things:

1. Bots run rampant on numerous high profile sites.
2. Many of the networks out there will monitor you and your winnings, play behaviour and adapt shuffling algorithms accordingly.
3. The assertion that 1/3 of all players win is stupid. An online poker room profits from RAKE and not from the wins and losses of the players. Think about it, if 1/3 of poker players win 2/3 of them lose. That was by FAR the stupidest comment I have heard.
4. Bot exist in these online poker rooms to keep the hands going, thus increasing the rake and the overall profit of the poker room.

I'm not sure why I had to comment on it but I read some pretty stupid uninformed and ignorant comments there from "professional" online poker players. There is a reason these poker rooms make money and clearly 99.99% of your poker geniuses have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Posted at 2:13PM on Oct 2nd 2009 by Dan Nedelko"

I copy and pasted this from an NVG thread about full tilt being sued. Thoughts?
Release the hounds...
I've been the president of a Fortune 500 company for the past 10 years and I can tell you the stock market is rigged.

See how easy it is for some anonymous internet posted to assume a job title they don't have?

Quote:
The assertion that 1/3 of all players win is stupid. An online poker room profits from RAKE and not from the wins and losses of the players. Think about it, if 1/3 of poker players win 2/3 of them lose. That was by FAR the stupidest comment I have heard.
mmmmk. Does Mr. Nedelko have any insight to what percentage of player actually win, since he has been in the industry for 7 years and has the analysis of the networks that supposedly monitors players winnings? Right, didn't think so.....
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:55 PM   #8787
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
So, tell us what you think may be 'up' to account for this perceived injustice if the site is not rigged.
I am unlucky. :P
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:55 PM   #8788
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

TK: are you even capable of critical analysis? Or do you just accept without question whatever statements concur with your own?

Thoughts:

1) probably true, although I guess the true extent is not known, but botting is a problem, no doubt.

2) We know that the sites (especially FTP) monitors play behaviour, which is why this lawsuit even exists. As for the rigging? I'll release the hound again: evidence?

3) I can't evaluate the stat. I thought the percentage of overall winners was much lower than 1/3.

4) Crap, gotta release the hounds again. I'm going to have to get some more, because these guys are getting pretty tired: EVIDENCE??????

Obviously it is possible for sites to rig and have house bots. There is a current debate going on now whether pitbull poker had house bots. And do you see what people are doing in that thread: collecting evidence and making a case. If it turns out that FTP has house bots: I think that will cause problems for them and people (myself included) will be very upset and they will lose a lot of business.

If sillysal has proof that FTP has housebots, it will be interesting to see it.

Ok that's my quick take TK, what's yours?

Last edited by Arouet; 10-03-2009 at 02:57 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 10-03-2009, 03:25 PM   #8789
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Does anyone have cliffnotes/ summary of this thread? I am interested in reading some of the arguments for and against the riggedness of online poker. Seems to be some compelling arguments both ways.
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Old 10-03-2009, 03:39 PM   #8790
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Does anyone have cliffnotes/ summary of this thread? I am interested in reading some of the arguments for and against the riggedness of online poker. Seems to be some compelling arguments both ways.
Pro: Its rigged i can feel it with my minds innate pattern mapper.
Con: Im going to need more then that.
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Old 10-03-2009, 04:20 PM   #8791
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
TK: are you even capable of critical analysis? Or do you just accept without question whatever statements concur with your own?
His new gimmick after months of failed rigged posts that went nowhere is to use sarcasm and be an instigator by posting silly stuff so it looks like he is above the fray. Then sit back and cackle when the hounds are released.

Cheaper activity than actually playing poker for him, so a good move on his part .

Last edited by Monteroy; 10-03-2009 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 10-03-2009, 05:59 PM   #8792
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
"24. So many of the comments in here are completely uninformed. I've been in the Online Gaming inustry for 7 years. Without naming specific companies I can definitively guarantee you a few things:

1. Bots run rampant on numerous high profile sites.
2. Many of the networks out there will monitor you and your winnings, play behaviour and adapt shuffling algorithms accordingly.
3. The assertion that 1/3 of all players win is stupid. An online poker room profits from RAKE and not from the wins and losses of the players. Think about it, if 1/3 of poker players win 2/3 of them lose. That was by FAR the stupidest comment I have heard.4. Bot exist in these online poker rooms to keep the hands going, thus increasing the rake and the overall profit of the poker room.

I'm not sure why I had to comment on it but I read some pretty stupid uninformed and ignorant comments there from "professional" online poker players. There is a reason these poker rooms make money and clearly 99.99% of your poker geniuses have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Posted at 2:13PM on Oct 2nd 2009 by Dan Nedelko"

I copy and pasted this from an NVG thread about full tilt being sued. Thoughts?
Release the hounds...
My thoughts are that this guy did some marketing for Bodog for 18 months and knows absolutely nothing about poker or about bots, merely how to sell an internet product, whatever it may be. Whether he does this well I wouldnt like to comment.

I have no idea why he's posting unfounded allegations on some trashy celebrity website but perhaps it is the only place where his "informed" knowledge of poker and his condescending tone will be given any credence.

You have repeatedly shown your desperation to convince everyone of cheating, rigging and corruption in online poker and you clearly respect this guys opinion ("look what this guy said! He knows! I told you!). May I suggest you contact him and ask him to post further details (here) of his allegations including sites and individuals involved. You might also want to ask him how he feels about the morality of selling what he knows to be a shady product to an unsuspecting public and how this might affect his future employment. If this "informed" individual has any proof of Full Tilt bots I'm sure the Plaintiff would also be also be interested in hearing from him.

In addition it would be most appreciated if you could explain in simple terms for my simple brain what he is trying to convey in the bolded part of point 3 above. If this is an example of his "informed" insights I am glad he is here to explain the world of poker to us plebs.

Last edited by Bingo_Boy; 10-03-2009 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 10-03-2009, 07:36 PM   #8793
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Desperation must be setting in. Evidence, we're so big on evidence. You show me where I condoned this guys statement or said "look I told you so" like you just quoted me as saying. You guys are the experts right? What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevent thread? I copy and pasted a statement, and even wrote "don't shoot the messenger" in the edit section. So why don't you pm the original messenger and tell him what you think. Get over yourself.
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Old 10-03-2009, 07:37 PM   #8794
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
His new gimmick after months of failed rigged posts that went nowhere is to use sarcasm and be an instigator by posting silly stuff so it looks like he is above the fray. Then sit back and cackle when the hounds are released.

Cheaper activity than actually playing poker for him, so a good move on his part .
What's wrong w/ fueling the fire?
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Old 10-03-2009, 07:50 PM   #8795
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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What's wrong w/ fueling the fire?
Nothing. I was genuine when I said it was a good move on your part instead of trying to have a real debate or play poker. The last two activities were not really hitting your strengths while instigating/being annoying is a much better fit. Lots will bite every time, so you will get a good amount of satisfaction in trolling that you were missing before.

Basically, go for it and enjoy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Desperation must be setting in. Evidence, we're so big on evidence. You show me where I condoned this guys statement or said "look I told you so" like you just quoted me as saying. You guys are the experts right? What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevent thread? I copy and pasted a statement, and even wrote "don't shoot the messenger" in the edit section. So why don't you pm the original messenger and tell him what you think. Get over yourself.
This is you trying to debate and make points. This is not one of your better skills.

Stick with releasing hounds. You will be much happier.
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Old 10-03-2009, 07:51 PM   #8796
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by vm1124 View Post
Does anyone have cliffnotes/ summary of this thread? I am interested in reading some of the arguments for and against the riggedness of online poker. Seems to be some compelling arguments both ways.
The shills wouldn't like that....
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Old 10-03-2009, 07:55 PM   #8797
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Desperation must be setting in. Evidence, we're so big on evidence. You show me where I condoned this guys statement or said "look I told you so" like you just quoted me as saying. You guys are the experts right? What's wrong w/ me bringing news to the relevant thread? I copy and pasted a statement, and even wrote "don't shoot the messenger" in the edit section. So why don't you pm the original messenger and tell him what you think. Get over yourself.
With your "release the hounds" statement in that post I guess I came to the conclusion that you concurred with the quotation. I admit that I missed the edit though. So I'll withdraw my rude question on your analytical abilities with regard to that particular post.

So what do you think about it?
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:24 PM   #8798
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
With your "release the hounds" statement in that post I guess I came to the conclusion that you concurred with the quotation. I admit that I missed the edit though. So I'll withdraw my rude question on your analytical abilities with regard to that particular post.

So what do you think about it?
I mean "release the hounds", by that, you guys are the hounds...Not you particularly...(hope i spelled that right)

As to what I think...
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:30 PM   #8799
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
My thoughts are that this guy did some marketing for Bodog for 18 months and knows absolutely nothing about poker or about bots, merely how to sell an internet product, whatever it may be. Whether he does this well I wouldnt like to comment.

I have no idea why he's posting unfounded allegations on some trashy celebrity website but perhaps it is the only place where his "informed" knowledge of poker and his condescending tone will be given any credence.

You have repeatedly shown your desperation to convince everyone of cheating, rigging and corruption in online poker and you clearly respect this guys opinion ("look what this guy said! He knows! I told you!). May I suggest you contact him and ask him to post further details (here) of his allegations including sites and individuals involved. You might also want to ask him how he feels about the morality of selling what he knows to be a shady product to an unsuspecting public and how this might affect his future employment. If this "informed" individual has any proof of Full Tilt bots I'm sure the Plaintiff would also be also be interested in hearing from him.

In addition it would be most appreciated if you could explain in simple terms for my simple brain what he is trying to convey in the bolded part of point 3 above. If this is an example of his "informed" insights I am glad he is here to explain the world of poker to us plebs.
Dude, take a deep breath and relax. Did I insult your mother or something? I'm gonna be the bigger person and try to help you in particular. QPW and Mont can learn and seek more help on this as well. But step 1, identify the problem...

Borderline Personality Disorder. People with borderline personality disorder are unstable in several areas, including interpersonal relationships, behavior, mood, and self-image. Abrupt and extreme mood changes, stormy interpersonal relationships, an unstable and fluctuating self-image, unpredictable and self-destructive actions characterize the person with borderline personality disorder. These individuals generally have great difficulty with their own sense of identity. They often experience the world in extremes, viewing others as either “all good” or “all bad.” A person with borderline personality may form an intense personal attachment with someone only to quickly dissolve it over a perceived slight. Fears of abandonment may lead to an excessive dependency on others. Self-multilation or recurrent suicidal gestures may be used to get attention or manipulate others. Impulsive actions, chronic feelings of boredom or emptiness, and bouts of intense inappropriate anger are other traits of this disorder, which is more common among females.

© 2009 Mental Health America | formerly known as the National Mental Health Association
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:41 PM   #8800
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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[I]Borderline Personality Disorder. People with borderline personality disorder are unstable in several areas, including interpersonal relationships, behavior, mood, and self-image. Abrupt and extreme mood changes, stormy interpersonal relationships, an unstable and fluctuating self-image, unpredictable and self-destructive actions characterize the person with borderline personality disorder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
LoL, not surprising, but I think your a liar, your too much of a _____ to actually have a hobby. This is your life. You downplaying the situation and calling me a drama queen makes you look more pathetic...Everyday your here, putting in way too much effort...You are the drama queen, do i need to requote your last post again? Get a life or a hobby, then maybe one day somebody might actually like you(outside of the the "net").


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Dude, take a deep breath and relax.

.
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