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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
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Old 09-27-2009, 07:53 PM   #8701
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
AA: I know this is a long thread, but did you read ANY of it before posting your "theory?"
I read some of it but the only thing relevant is the topic and I'm giving my opinion just like everyone else. It's hypocritical to even WANT to trust gambling organizations they're no different than casino owners.

The only real theory I gave is how they would go about cheating. Everything else is just common sense. Their motives? Money, greed, and they're just evil gambling organizations. Why it would work? Any online poker game can LITERALLY be controlled unlike live poker where the only one a person has to worry about is the dealer because people are rarely dumb enough to try to cheat in a casino. Poker is easily addictive and any hand can be attributed to chance and "luck" no matter how and when the 1/2/3 outer hit. AAvsKK happening x amount of times in a any given timeframe? "That's poker." The greatest scapegoat for any poker exploiter.

On my other posts i just went into more detail.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:23 PM   #8702
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by aaaaa45 View Post
I read some of it but the only thing relevant is the topic and I'm giving my opinion just like everyone else. It's hypocritical to even WANT to trust gambling organizations they're no different than casino owners.
Well, read a bigger chunk and you will see just how easy it would be to detect what you have suggested.

And I think the word you were looking for is "naive" not hypocritical.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:31 PM   #8703
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by aaaaa45 View Post
Basically its possible, that online there is a program that can generate AAvsKK or something like it x amount of times within a given timeframe to force action and all in situations. This same system can also detect the size of the pot and decide whether or not "bad beat" cards are neccessary to insure an all-in situation. When this happens often, more money is deposited and away the profits go.
Please explain how your last statement follows from the others, and then show using some math how this results in more rake earned by the site.

Hint - larger pots do not necessarily correlate to more rake earned. At mid and higher stakes it means less rake for the site. At micro stakes it can mean more rake on a particular hand, but not overall. Hint #2 - the only way a site increases overall rake is to have more players seated at tables on a 24/7 average basis. Now do some math.
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:17 PM   #8704
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by aaaaa45 View Post
MONEY motivates them.
They don't win the money from bad beats, the most they can do is try to get all pots to $60, after that it makes no difference to them. Usually a bad beat happens once the money's gone in, so really bad beats have nothing to do with your "theory", unless you also think they favor "worse" players. If your theory doesn't include player favoring, then you're just saying that they rig "action hands", which is something that would be pretty easy to determine using a decent sized sample of hands.
Quote:
Basically its possible, that online there is a program that can generate AAvsKK or something like it x amount of times within a given timeframe to force action and all in situations.
How would they keep the hands evenly distributed amongst all players? If they didn't keep track of who coolered who, then eventually there'd be outliers who have gotten certain hands way more or way less often than they should.
Quote:
This same system can also detect the size of the pot and decide whether or not "bad beat" cards are neccessary to insure an all-in situation.
I'd be pretty interested in seeing a system that could know exactly how the players would react to it. What if that hand from a few months ago on UB where a Q high straight flush and a royal flush both checked the river was set up to boost the rake for the site and let them get a cut of the BBJ money? I bet they were pissed when the final pot was only $4.95.
Quote:
Also, when 10s of millions of players are playing hundreds of millions of hands who is ever going to complain?
A ton of people in this thread?
Quote:
Nobody goes any further than just being mad about their bad beats/coolers.
Could've fooled me. I swear there have been a number of people who have looked into it more and found nothing, aside from the AP and UB superusers, who were caught by...wait for it... people who went further than just being mad about their bad beats/coolers.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:09 PM   #8705
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
They don't win the money from bad beats, the most they can do is try to get all pots to $60, after that it makes no difference to them. Usually a bad beat happens once the money's gone in, so really bad beats have nothing to do with your "theory", unless you also think they favor "worse" players. If your theory doesn't include player favoring, then you're just saying that they rig "action hands", which is something that would be pretty easy to determine using a decent sized sample of hands.How would they keep the hands evenly distributed amongst all players? If they didn't keep track of who coolered who, then eventually there'd be outliers who have gotten certain hands way more or way less often than they should.I'd be pretty interested in seeing a system that could know exactly how the players would react to it. What if that hand from a few months ago on UB where a Q high straight flush and a royal flush both checked the river was set up to boost the rake for the site and let them get a cut of the BBJ money? I bet they were pissed when the final pot was only $4.95.A ton of people in this thread?
Could've fooled me. I swear there have been a number of people who have looked into it more and found nothing, aside from the AP and UB superusers, who were caught by...wait for it... people who went further than just being mad about their bad beats/coolers.
Who found nothing? People that worked for the poker site? People that the poker site hired?
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:35 PM   #8706
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Who found nothing? People that worked for the poker site? People that the poker site hired?
How about I rephrase it to: hundreds, maybe thousands of people have access to hundreds of thousands of their personal hand histories, and none of them have looked at those hands in tracking software and found proof of rigging. Is that better? I obviously can't use spadebidder's research as any kind of proof, since 1) he hasn't published it entirely yet, and 2) he's either a shill for every poker site or in cahoots with botters, depending on what ad hominem works better against him at the time.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:41 PM   #8707
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
How about I rephrase it to: hundreds, maybe thousands of people have access to hundreds of thousands of their personal hand histories, and none of them have looked at those hands in tracking software and found proof of rigging. Is that better? I obviously can't use spadebidder's research as any kind of proof, since 1) he hasn't published it entirely yet, and 2) he's either a shill for every poker site or in cahoots with botters, depending on what ad hominem works better against him at the time.
HH's wouldn't prove a rigged deal in all aspects...
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:49 PM   #8708
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Nothing will prove any online or live game isnt rigged in all aspects. If thats the standard of proof, you arent going to like playing poker.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:56 PM   #8709
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
HH's wouldn't prove a rigged deal in all aspects...
I was talking specifically about the "theory" that sites would constantly cooler people to make more money, which would show up in HH's.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:03 AM   #8710
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
HH's wouldn't prove a rigged deal in all aspects...
wat, no.

If a site is rigged, it is to advantage one player over another in hands of poker. By definition, it must show up in HHs. How the hell can someone rig a deal without changing the deal?
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:45 AM   #8711
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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wat, no.

If a site is rigged, it is to advantage one player over another in hands of poker. By definition, it must show up in HHs. How the hell can someone rig a deal without changing the deal?
So how do you prove that the deal isnt going to be rigged because the sites change the RNG to rig games in a number of different ways and the auditors dont inspect the site data every single day? Or that there is some timing scheme so devious that it cant be detected because its so super cunning that we cant even guess what it is? Or that superusers associated with the sites arent hooking cards in a way the sites cant figure out?

Similarly, in live poker how are you ever going to prove that the dealer isnt cheating with a subset of players at the table?

I dont believe any of those things are happening on a regular basis, but can you prove with 100% confidence that millions of different rigged theories arent happening? Probably cant, and if you could there would be a million and first theory.

You're never going to convince him to that standard since you cant disprove an infinite set of rigged hypotheses. Its not even worth trying. Just keep checking testable hypotheses and let the reasonable people itt evaluate the evidence.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:09 AM   #8712
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I know someone who has a friend of their mothers son who knows a guy in Pokerstars security team that internet poker IS in fact rigged and they take all the manies and spend it on things like goulash.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:13 AM   #8713
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
So how do you prove that the deal isnt going to be rigged because the sites change the RNG to rig games in a number of different ways and the auditors dont inspect the site data every single day?
But you don't need to inspect the site data every single day to detect such behaviour.

If you're alleging that the cards are being changed in some way (which is the whole point of 'rigging' a deck) then the cards have to be changed in some way. I thought that this was a pretty truistic point? By definition, if there's cheating, then it must be different to a fair distribution, right? It never occurred to me that this point would be disputed.

Quote:
I dont believe any of those things are happening on a regular basis, but can you prove with 100% confidence that millions of different rigged theories arent happening? Probably cant, and if you could there would be a million and first theory.
The test that anyone can apply here is 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Quote:
You're never going to convince him to that standard since you cant disprove an infinite set of rigged hypotheses. Its not even worth trying. Just keep checking testable hypotheses and let the reasonable people itt evaluate the evidence.
I agree with this.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:27 AM   #8714
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Zeekman View Post
I know someone who has a friend of their mothers son who knows a guy in Pokerstars security team that internet poker IS in fact rigged and they take all the manies and spend it on things like goulash.
I wish this was true, because I quite like goulash.

I also like red cabbage.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:10 AM   #8715
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
ROFLMAO.

Looks as if the CIA have examined your paranoid spoutings and come up with an appropriate response.

"Invalid Argument. ..."

tk1133, you really are the poster boy for the idiot tendancy.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:12 AM   #8716
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Duplicate

Last edited by qpw; 09-28-2009 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:19 AM   #8717
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
I wish this was true, because I quite like goulash.

I also like red cabbage.
It's a really good combination; goulash and spiced red cabbage.

Taken in moderation it can improve your win rate and help to avoid suckouts.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:05 AM   #8718
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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It's a really good combination; goulash and spiced red cabbage.

Taken in moderation it can improve your win rate and help to avoid suckouts.
Not to thread derail but that sounds good, the cabbage thing.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:06 PM   #8719
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Who found nothing? People that worked for the poker site? People that the poker site hired?
You. You found nothing.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:26 PM   #8720
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
If it is a level it is just a variation of the "be sarcastic while still thinking it's rigged" type a level that a few of the riggedologists are doing as of late.

He did run really bad, so if he ran bad to set up a month long intricate level, well hey good for him. He lost a chunk of change but fooled us all.

The sarcasm factor is just the latest version of the "I am not saying it is rigged, but..." closet riggedologist lifestyle choice.

If he was a player who wanted to work on his game he would have done so by now.
Yes, this was just to get things rolling again, I was just being sarcastic. Arouets detector is working. This thread is so fun, I dont want it to end. LOL!

I have no real proof outside of running bad, I managed to make it into third place last night in a 180 man. The only thing that was rigged was how bad I played short handed. Lots of EV lost for being a donk and having a another 2-1 chip lead blown.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:35 PM   #8721
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
For the best anyway as now his downswings has nothing to do with him and he no longer needs to worry about such matters as working on his game. Not sure why anyone is asking him for his proof, why would he be the first riggedologist to provide any. He used lots of capital letters at least.

Bit annoying that a few of us wasted time to tried to genuinely offer advice, but that's the way of the road at times.

Actually, the advice was good. I just wanted to stir up the pot up for some more fun. Not on the rigged side, although, that doesnt mean that I dont believe that we shouldnt all keep our eyes wide open.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:41 PM   #8722
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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So, given it is so "clearly obvious" can you share the results of your analysis with us?
Sorry Josem, Bad Joke.

I know you work for them and your contribution here is appreciated and does say something about Pstars.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:49 PM   #8723
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Arouets detector is working.
Donko my friend, I get you man! I GET you! Common, don't leave me hangin! Slap me some skin!
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:01 PM   #8724
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Donko my friend, I get you man! I GET you! Common, don't leave me hangin! Slap me some skin!
Smack!

I had a couple of drinks in me at the time and thought I would spread the happiness. LOL!

Good read though, I hope that works on the poker tables for you also. I guess I would have gotten called on the river on this one or even re raised.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:22 PM   #8725
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Re: Open letter to Microgaming (Re: Tusk bankruptcy)ONLINE FRAUDELENT MATTER OF ORGANIZED CRIME

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Bump
HELLO ALL

I HAVE LOST MORE THAN 40000 EUROS ON MICROGAMING AND SMILAR SITES.
I HAVE A VERY STRONG BACKGROUND ON HOW THEY CHEAT WITH THE SOFTWARE. E-COGRA IS A FAKE COMPANY WHICH HAS NO POWER OR REGULATION OVER THE CASINOS. THE REGULATORS SUCH AS KAHNAWAKE AND OTHERS ARE ALSO IN SMALL TERRITORIES WHICH HAS NO POWER OR WILL TO AUDIT THOSE CASINOS. THE WAY THAT THEY WORK IS BASICALLY
EVERYTHING IS SETUP FOR ONE THING THE TOTAL PAYOUT. PAYOUT IS DETERMINED BY THE SOFTWARE ACCORDING TO THE USERS POLL THE TOTAL MONEY GATHERED. IT WILL PAYOUT A PERCENTAGE OF IT. LETS SAY CASINO HAS 200 EUROS AND IF IT IS SET TO PAY 100 EUROS IT WILL NEVER PAY A 101 EUROS. SO BASICALLY YOUR 101 EUROS IS STOLEN..... ALSO ANOTHER THING IS THAT THEY SCREW UP WITH THE PLAYERS. MICROGAMING HAS ALSO HAVE A SECURITY SYSTEM FOR SMART PLAYERS WHO KNOWS HOT TO BEAT THE SYSTEM. THEY ACTIVATE IT ON CERTAIN TYPE OF PLAYS AND AGAINST CERTAIN TYPE OF PLAYERS. BASICALLY THIS IS THE BIGGEST ONLINE FRAUDELENT IN HUMAN HISTORY...... THEY ARE JUST SCARED TO SPEAK OUT.... I HAVE A BIG CASE BUT THIS IS THE BIGGEST MAFIA EVER.
TO BEAT THESE *******S WE HAVE TO GET TOGETHER AND CREATE A UNION AND HAVE NUMEROUS PEOPLE TO FILE A BIG FILESUIT AND GET THEIR BUSINESS CLOSED... PLEASE contact me at mkoc@uleadcomputers.com for further information....
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