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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-23-2009, 05:37 PM   #8651
DonkoTheClown
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
He is trying very hard to create a master theory out of thin air that would meet these conditions, but his keeps falling short in large part because he has no idea how basic statistical analysis or human behavior works.


I only half joke when I suggest Lizard People as an alternative, because it meets all the same conditions of a wacky rigged theory without having the drawbacks of it being so easily proven false. One can always adapt Lizard People for any counterpoint

People inside would tell:

His theory: Requires hundreds/thousands to never tell, even those out of their jobs.

Lizard People: They do not tell because the Lizard people use their mind control to prevent it from being told.


Why would a company risk it all for minimal gain:

His theory: People/companies are greedy without any concern of any consequence even if severe and completely not worth the risk

Lizard people: No problem, they cannot be caught and if someone discovers them they simply erase their memory



Wouldn't it get caught anyway via statistical means:

His theory: I know nothing of math but I think superbots wouldn't be caught, right? I mean just change a few hands, who notices?

Lizard People: They make sure it would never be caught, if so no problem - poof mind control.


Lizard People are definitely the way to go between these two choices.
LOL!

I agree that without some evidence that their at least might be something going on, all theories are going to be no better than a science fiction book or movie. There has to be a place to start and finish or we are just going round and round about all of this. I am interested in Spadebidders study and will have more questions and comments after seeing it.
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Old 09-23-2009, 06:38 PM   #8652
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'm a low volume player, and I *routinely* suffer streaks of 20-30 *consecutive* all-in showdown losses in which I have (at worst) overcards vs a PP when the money goes in. I posted one of those streaks ITT. The odds of losing even 20 consecutive coin flips is less than one in a million.

The simplest, most likely explanation is that the probability distribution of the deal is not in fact uniform (but is probably tuned to have the correct mean).

It's pretty obvious that online poker is not programmed (either intentionally or not) to have a uniform (i.e. "fair") probability distribution, but I don't see what is the big deal. I just play online for practice at low stakes, and play much higher stakes live. Not surprisingly, I have not once in 5 years of regular live play lost 20+ consecutive all-ins.
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:04 PM   #8653
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by bluesbassman View Post
I'm a low volume player, and I *routinely* suffer streaks of 20-30 *consecutive* all-in showdown losses in which I have (at worst) overcards vs a PP when the money goes in. I posted one of those streaks ITT. The odds of losing even 20 consecutive coin flips is less than one in a million.
Only if you only flip 20 coins in your life. If you flip 200,000 times, the chance of getting a streak of 20 heads in a row is about 10%.
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:24 PM   #8654
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesbassman View Post
I'm a low volume player, and I *routinely* suffer streaks of 20-30 *consecutive* all-in showdown losses in which I have (at worst) overcards vs a PP when the money goes in. I posted one of those streaks ITT. The odds of losing even 20 consecutive coin flips is less than one in a million.
Please post your hand histories so that we can confirm this.
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:43 PM   #8655
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by bluesbassman View Post
Not surprisingly, I have not once in 5 years of regular live play lost 20+ consecutive all-ins.
In five years, how many hands do you think you've seen?
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:04 AM   #8656
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesbassman View Post
I'm a low volume player, and I *routinely* suffer streaks of 20-30 *consecutive* all-in showdown losses in which I have (at worst) overcards vs a PP when the money goes in. I posted one of those streaks ITT. The odds of losing even 20 consecutive coin flips is less than one in a million.

The simplest, most likely explanation is that the probability distribution of the deal is not in fact uniform (but is probably tuned to have the correct mean).

It's pretty obvious that online poker is not programmed (either intentionally or not) to have a uniform (i.e. "fair") probability distribution, but I don't see what is the big deal. I just play online for practice at low stakes, and play much higher stakes live. Not surprisingly, I have not once in 5 years of regular live play lost 20+ consecutive all-ins.
I call bs. Not that it would even be impossible but this is obviously completely fabricated.
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:16 AM   #8657
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I play Full Tilt (FT), so all my comments are based on that experience.

First, most players at small stakes are losers, for three reasons. Of course, it is hard to beat the rake. Second, there are a lot of players who won't fold a hand, so you will see more suckouts, which tends to reduce the value of good play and increase variance. Third, a combination of a better level of players than you would expect, and sniping by short-stackers makes it tough to beat. Be sure that you take notes on who the donkeys are, and use some kind of player statistics.

HOWEVER, there ARE winners at each level, so if you adjust your play to the level you are working, a really good player will win.

As far as the tables being rigged, I think that most players have the experience of having a real good run, and thinking because you are winning that you are a good player, and then having an equally bad run and losing all that equity. I see it in over half of the player equity charts I see, and I look at them every day. If you went to a casino one night and rolled good dice, and the following night they went cold and you lost it all, would you blame the dice? Would you be looking around for Danny Ocean?

As poker players, we get an exaggerated opinion of how important our skill is. Skill only counts for a small margin. If you estimate that you have an average 60% advantage on all your shoves, and if you consider a series of 6 shoves, Take 40% to the sixth power, and you will find that you're going to lose those six shoves in a row every so often. Pro players who feed their families on-line have losing days, and even losing streaks.

Bottom line to me is this: There ARE consistent winning players on Full Tilt. One of them is a good friend of mine, so they ARE real people. If you are not winning, look to the mirror first before you imagine evil programs in the FT computer designed to beat you.

I see AA vs AA too often, and it makes me suspicious. However, I'm never going to know if FT is skewing the odds to create more showdowns, so all I can do is adapt my game to what I see. I've seen quads vs. quads in live play, and every one-outer suckout there is, so only the insiders will ever know for sure.

For those of you who are convinced it's crooked, FT offers a 500K play chip tournament every night that allows a good player to win $2 by finishing in the top 18, which is not hard for a good player to do about 50% of the time. Win 50 of those, and you can have FT ship you a check for $100, without any risk on your part.
People don't respond to logic and reason on the Internet.. or in this thread. They only like to pick on idiots. Warning: If you're not an idiot.. move on.
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Old 09-24-2009, 10:40 AM   #8658
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
I call bs. Not that it would even be impossible but this is obviously completely fabricated.
How can you say that? He posted the handhistories, showing his entire playing session and it was clear that - oh wait, that didn't happen.
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Old 09-24-2009, 11:21 AM   #8659
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
I stand by my previous remark that if they put 1/2 the effort into improving their game as they do blaming the industry, they'd be 2x as successful in no time.
For an infinite rate of improvement.
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:27 AM   #8660
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

just one simple word; Superbots
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Old 09-25-2009, 11:33 AM   #8661
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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just one simple word; Superbots
Just another simple word: 'Evidence'.

Oops, I used the E-word.

I hope I don't get landed with a ban.
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Old 09-25-2009, 01:31 PM   #8662
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Just another simple word: 'Evidence'.

Oops, I used the E-word.

I hope I don't get landed with a ban.
Where's yours?
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Old 09-26-2009, 03:47 AM   #8663
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Where's yours?
I don't need evidence as I'm not trying to assert a positive (or even a negative for that matter).

It beggars belief that even after all these months of spouting your nonsense you still haven't learned about who needs to provide the evidence.
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Old 09-26-2009, 06:59 AM   #8664
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Where's yours?
TK what were the results when you did some actual statistical research on your own hand database?
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Old 09-26-2009, 07:09 AM   #8665
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

So is this the longest thread ever yet?
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Old 09-26-2009, 08:14 AM   #8666
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Not by a very long way.

Look at the "Person to person transfers." thread and you'll see it's nowhere close.

And that thread grows faster!
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Old 09-26-2009, 03:28 PM   #8667
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

If you play 100K hands on differrent sites you should see on all close to the same games. The funny thing is that this is not the case...its proofed that the games are created, that does not mean poker is not beatable.

Poker is beatable but its also not a fair game.

And together with all the cheats from going bankrupt, closing accounts, superusers, neural net bots its total normal that many countries think to ban poker.

Poker is beatable , but its also rigged, cheating is usual, and parts of the industrie are not serious
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Old 09-26-2009, 04:05 PM   #8668
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by solucky View Post
If you play 100K hands on differrent sites you should see on all close to the same games. The funny thing is that this is not the case...its proofed that the games are created, that does not mean poker is not beatable.

Poker is beatable but its also not a fair game.

And together with all the cheats from going bankrupt, closing accounts, superusers, neural net bots its total normal that many countries think to ban poker.

Poker is beatable , but its also rigged, cheating is usual, and parts of the industrie are not serious
I would be very interested to see this proof.
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Old 09-26-2009, 04:37 PM   #8669
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
I don't need evidence as I'm not trying to assert a positive (or even a negative for that matter).

It beggars belief that even after all these months of spouting your nonsense you still haven't learned about who needs to provide the evidence.
Dude, why when you get confronted, you constantly change your tune. Your motives are inconsistant. I've asked you numerous times to prove that you even play poker online...Yet you haven't....So no proof, means your not a poker player correct? Your on here literally responding negatively to every post questioning the integrity of online poker. You must have proof that it's not rigged, or your paid to troll this site, or your social recluse w/ no friends, no grasp of reality, that lives on "cyber space."

I post on this thread b/c it's possible to rig, and you guys sit around and say well it's about trust. Well my country is broke b/c of trust...You can't show any concrete evidence that games are 100% legit. And when you can't, you say "Burden of proof is on the accuser?" Are you kidding me? Billions of dollars! It's not worth questioning?
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Old 09-26-2009, 04:39 PM   #8670
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

And Mont. I'd strongly suggest you quit bringing up my name in other threads.....
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Old 09-26-2009, 04:39 PM   #8671
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
TK what were the results when you did some actual statistical research on your own hand database?
Didn't do any research....
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Old 09-26-2009, 05:04 PM   #8672
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Didn't do any research....
Why not?
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Old 09-26-2009, 05:07 PM   #8673
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I don't have the tools, I've offered 4 different people my HH's....nobody wanted to analyze mine...
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Old 09-26-2009, 05:12 PM   #8674
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
And Mont. I'd strongly suggest you quit bringing up my name in other threads.....
The guy was desperate with his Full Tilt situation and you used that and his thread as a tool for your new sarcasm routine about the sites and how they are regulated being very legit, while distracting him from getting any real help.

Kind of why he asked what the heck you were talking about a couple times in frustration as his account was being closed.

Maybe do that less in future - just use your rigged routine of the day in this thread instead.
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Old 09-26-2009, 05:14 PM   #8675
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I play everyday online for about 3 1/2 weeks out of the month. Then at the end of the month, I cash out, get doomswitched and kick the **** ouf of my wife, spend 3 days in jail then log onto 2+2 to inform the community about my rigged proof.

All seriousness, I'm not saying it's 100% rigged, I have a problem w/ the unknown and "WTF's......" Sadly enough, I'd prefer to play online poker over live games....
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