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Old 09-10-2009, 08:41 PM   #8426
DonkoTheClown
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
I'm not just saying this because I agree with Monteroy I PROMISE YOU. But, you sound FAR less intelligent than him. Your writing is average at best and your arguments are poorly constructed. So far he is OWNING you in this thread. I think most would agree.

EDIT: I mean this in the sense, that despite not agreeing with someone I can still sense intelligence in dialogue. For example, I disagree strongly with Glenn Beck, but I can still see him as an intelligent person, probably more intelligent than I am. On the other hand, it is clear you are lacking in the critical thinking/logic department and don't have the necessary skills to present extremely good arguments. I don't mean this as an ad hominem, it is completely separate from the point of the argument. I just lol'd at your above statement.
You can LOL all you want to try and impress upon the newbies your agenda and your obvious need to find your position here and in life. The bottom line is that you guys are nowhere near as intelligent as you think you are because you would not need a little thread like this to prove to the little newbies that your life actually means something. Logic is not the only measurement of intelligence, you guys seem to reduce everything to the numbers and the pure math of it. Live some life and experience some real hardship to reflect on and come back here to help people not belittle them.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:44 PM   #8427
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Yeah, this is bad, I publicly appologize for losing my temper. I just dont have any respect for advice that is pointed downward for purposes of making something think that their position in life is higher than others. There is also alot of sparring for sport here and it is just sickening to me. Some of these intelligent people have a chance to teach some new people something worthwhile but instead they just position themselves over and let the urine pass...
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:47 PM   #8428
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
Why is this the default ad hominem for so many "unsure" people and rigtards?

From now on I'm just assuming that anyone who suggests online might not be fair is a shill for Real Deal, until they prove otherwise.
This is also in poor taste and your point in taken, this was worthless banter on my part...I dont have a problem when admitting I am wrong because I am not the expert on all things that are discussion like some of these poor lost souls seem to think they are...

Over and out with this worthless thread...

"ALL THE BEST"
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:33 PM   #8429
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
This is so where you are missing the boat, I have not said that online poker is rigged, I said that I am either running bad or something is up with the site that I have been playing on.
Reality is you are running bad.

What you eventually think reality is may differ.


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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I am coming here and trying to do some research with people I would think have a pretty good handle on what is going on, but all I am seeing is really weak and very defensive argument.

You guys have actually made a lot of people become more suspect as a result of your irresponsible approach.

Again for the last time, I am not willing to state that online poker is rigged without the evidence, but I am concerned that some sites might be. I am just following up to gain some more information about this subject. I have learned some things from some of the posters, but I have been very curious about the motivations of others especially when the argument is reduced to black or white. There are lots of ways to paint a picture not just with two very opposite colors. As intelligent as you seem to be, you are so missing this...
You sound like someone who at his core wants to embrace riggedology but is holding onto the last sliver to avoid being painted as a full blown riggedologist.

Just make up your mind already. Many people have posted logical suggestions to you, including myself (which in hindsight was a waste of time). None of them are sticking because you do not want them to stick. Just convert already to a full fledged rigged believer and get it over with, and then you will never be at fault for when you run bad again.


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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
You can LOL all you want to try and impress upon the newbies your agenda and your obvious need to find your position here and in life. The bottom line is that you guys are nowhere near as intelligent as you think you are because you would not need a little thread like this to prove to the little newbies that your life actually means something.
Pretty sure variations of "get a life" became old in 1995 on internet message boards as a means of trash talk. Since you are not using any time researching things like amounts poker sites make on their investments or watching coaching videos, why not at least investigate some fresher material for snarky comebacks.


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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Logic is not the only measurement of intelligence, you guys seem to reduce everything to the numbers and the pure math of it. Live some life and experience some real hardship to reflect on and come back here to help people not belittle them.
Pretty sure things like a random number generator are about math and logic. Very few need "life experience" to work properly.

Same thing with analyzing basic financial statements to get a better perspective of what you are talking about when using "it's greed" as a point without any context.

If it helps, hit yourself on the head with a frying pan before doing some investigative work to endure a bit of hardship. Whatever works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Yeah, this is bad, I publicly appologize for losing my temper. I just dont have any respect for advice that is pointed downward for purposes of making something think that their position in life is higher than others.
Not everyone regards an internet forum/chat as a measure of life positioning. Anyway, everyone on the internet is a billionaire who can bench press 500 pounds. Well, ok, I can only do 490.


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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Your argument is always so over the top and out of proportion to the discussion.

You know the answer...PS and FT are not publicly traded. I am not finding anything on the internet that says one word about what either of these sites are reporting for earnings.
In the last pointless attempt at logic I suggest you consider that even though some of these companies are publicly traded and some are not the odds are that the revenue earned from your "greed components" will be similar as a percentage of overall income.

An exact figure is not important, but it is quite different if that figure is tiny or if it is large, so why not at least get some data on it to get an idea. It is as if you do not want to know the answer.

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
You didnt answer my question earlier, which site are trolling for? Josem is at least man enough to speak the truth and even try to be helpful here. Your approach is just infamatory and devoid of any real substance.
Not trolling for any site, but if pretending I am makes you feel better then go for it. That type of imagination and paranoid thinking are needed for your potential future as a full fledged riggedologist.


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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
You are posting like you are the expert on all of this, I am not seeing any expert analysis in your words here. I am seeing poor comparisons, sarcasm, arogance and a hint of defensiveness. This just doesnt sit well in my gut.
Lose some of your gut and develop a thicker skin.

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Dude you are no match for me in discussions like these because I wake people up to their false pretenses and denial filled lives for a living.
Well, it is good to know you have a hobby when not worried about poker rooms being out to get you.

All the best.
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:10 AM   #8430
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Donko, I'm assuming by now that you've requested your handhistories from whatever poker sites you play on and have put your hands into a tracking program. I'm curious as to what you have found.
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Old 09-11-2009, 08:21 AM   #8431
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Love the gif! And Gwen Ifill is oh so perfect for it.
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:12 AM   #8432
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

lets say a poker room changes the RNG during a limited space of time. making favorite hands pre flop and in the flop to win less frequently than expected at the SD. hHow could that be detected through a data analisys. I mean, if you take data from a long enough period of time the anomaly would be disguised. Or you could just pick the data from a different moment, when the RNG was running fine.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:10 PM   #8433
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Donko, I'm assuming by now that you've requested your handhistories from whatever poker sites you play on and have put your hands into a tracking program. I'm curious as to what you have found.
I have 60,000+ hands from PStars on my hard drive. In reviewing them manually, I have been taking a lot of bad beats, more than I think that I should, but without getting the info into Holdem Manager, I am not going to be able to generate a report that boils everything down. I am working on that so that I can post some results here.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #8434
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I have 60,000+ hands from PStars on my hard drive. In reviewing them manually, I have been taking a lot of bad beats, more than I think that I should, but without getting the info into Holdem Manager, I am not going to be able to generate a report that boils everything down. I am working on that so that I can post some results here.
When you say "working on that" I assume you mean being able to afford the program since the actual importing of the hands is quite simple and just takes a few minutes. Both HEM and PT3 have free trials. And even if you've used them up in the past, sometimes when they come out with a new version the trial date restarts, so even if you've used it up in the past, you might try removing the old version, download the new and see if it works. I know this happened to me with PT3 (which kinda sucked since I bought the program before realizing I could have had another trial period! oh well!)
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #8435
DonkoTheClown
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Reality is you are running bad.

What you eventually think reality is may differ.




You sound like someone who at his core wants to embrace riggedology but is holding onto the last sliver to avoid being painted as a full blown riggedologist.

Just make up your mind already. Many people have posted logical suggestions to you, including myself (which in hindsight was a waste of time). None of them are sticking because you do not want them to stick. Just convert already to a full fledged rigged believer and get it over with, and then you will never be at fault for when you run bad again.




Pretty sure variations of "get a life" became old in 1995 on internet message boards as a means of trash talk. Since you are not using any time researching things like amounts poker sites make on their investments or watching coaching videos, why not at least investigate some fresher material for snarky comebacks.




Pretty sure things like a random number generator are about math and logic. Very few need "life experience" to work properly.

Same thing with analyzing basic financial statements to get a better perspective of what you are talking about when using "it's greed" as a point without any context.

If it helps, hit yourself on the head with a frying pan before doing some investigative work to endure a bit of hardship. Whatever works.



Not everyone regards an internet forum/chat as a measure of life positioning. Anyway, everyone on the internet is a billionaire who can bench press 500 pounds. Well, ok, I can only do 490.




In the last pointless attempt at logic I suggest you consider that even though some of these companies are publicly traded and some are not the odds are that the revenue earned from your "greed components" will be similar as a percentage of overall income.

An exact figure is not important, but it is quite different if that figure is tiny or if it is large, so why not at least get some data on it to get an idea. It is as if you do not want to know the answer.



Not trolling for any site, but if pretending I am makes you feel better then go for it. That type of imagination and paranoid thinking are needed for your potential future as a full fledged riggedologist.




Lose some of your gut and develop a thicker skin.



Well, it is good to know you have a hobby when not worried about poker rooms being out to get you.

All the best.
Here is yet another attempt to redirect and make blurry the subject matter.

I feel like I am trying to interact with adults stricken with Aspergers Syndrome. You cannot see past anything but pure numbers even though people, who by the way are very flawed are involved in the subject matter we are discussing. It is like trying to herd cats talking to you, instead of responding directly to the statement or question, you either answer in a way that benefits your own agenda or position. I admire that you have some skills of manipulation, that probably works well on the poker table, but I just dont think that belongs in this thread.

If developing a thicker skin means that I become as cynical, condescending and sarcastic as some of the posters here, I say "No Thanks" to that.

Here is what I learned so far about this thread on 2+2:

- Online sites troll here
- Some posters think they are brighter than they really are
- Some of the community here actually have good written communication skills and can see more than just "Black and White" in the discussions.
- Some are just hopelessly lost in their mental illness or where just born geniuses afflicted with mild autism (like Aspergers) which doesnt allow them to see anything outside of pure numbers.
- Some posters clearly have issues with attention deficit disorder
- Others just have an evil agenda because life has not been too good to them, so they need to spread the misery.
- There are also a group of wannabe's who talk the talk but cant do much outside of this. They are probably sitting at home with nothing better to do because they have been total misfits their whole lives.

So what does all of this have to do with this discussion thread? Mathematically, nothing, but on the level of trying to get to the bottom line on the questions? Alot. All of this garbage and menusha is just overwhelming the bottom line here. Why dont we have clear information proving one way or another? Because neither side can prove conclusively that some sites are not rigged. I am done wasting my time here. There are just not enough people here who really know how to get down to business in a constructive manner.

Good luck to all of you.

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 09-11-2009 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:43 PM   #8436
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
When you say "working on that" I assume you mean being able to afford the program since the actual importing of the hands is quite simple and just takes a few minutes. Both HEM and PT3 have free trials. And even if you've used them up in the past, sometimes when they come out with a new version the trial date restarts, so even if you've used it up in the past, you might try removing the old version, download the new and see if it works. I know this happened to me with PT3 (which kinda sucked since I bought the program before realizing I could have had another trial period! oh well!)
No, I can afford it, I just want to make sure it will run on my system. I downloaded a free version of Pokertracker and it didnt work. I am looking at Holdem Manager and any others that would work. I wasnt under the impression that I could just dump hand histories sent from the sites by email to me into these programs. I thought I had to collect them in real time whileI was playing with the program up. Is this not correct? I thought I was told that I would have to manually load the old histories in.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:43 PM   #8437
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I am done wasting my time here. There are just not enough people here who really know how to get down to business in a constructive manner.

Good luck to all of you.
Darn, and I just waited another minute or two responding to his last post at the same time he was telling us all to **** off!
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:45 PM   #8438
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
No, I can afford it, I just want to make sure it will run on my system. I downloaded a free version of Pokertracker and it didnt work. I am looking at Holdem Manager and any others that would work. I wasnt under the impression that I could just dump hand histories sent from the sites by email to me into these programs. I thought I had to collect them in real time whileI was playing with the program up. Is this not correct? I thought I was told that I would have to manually load the old histories in.
At risk of wasting my time (see my post above), manually importing them in is as simple as pointing the program to the folder they are saved in, they will all be imported. In PT3 the options are right beside each other, not sure in HEM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:45 PM   #8439
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Here is yet another attempt to redirect and make blurry the subject matter.

I feel like I am trying to interact with adults stricken with Aspergers Syndrome. You cannot see past anything but pure numbers even though people, who by the way are very flawed are involved in the subject matter we are discussing. It is like trying to herd cats talking to you, instead of responding directly to the statement or question, you either answer in a way that benefits your own agenda or position. I admire that you have some skills of manipulation, that probably works well on the poker table, but I just dont think that belongs in this thread.

If developing a thicker skin means that I become as cynical, condescending and sarcastic as some of the posters here, I say "No Thanks" to that.

Here is what I learned so far about this thread on 2+2:

- Online sites troll here
- Some posters think they are brighter than they really are
- Some of the community here actually have good written communication skills and can see more than just "Black and White" in the discussions.
- Some are just hopelessly lost in their mental illness or where just born geniuses afflicted with mild autism (like Aspergers) which doesnt allow them to see anything outside of pure numbers.
- Some posters clearly have issues with attention deficit disorder
- Others just have an evil agenda because life has been too good to them, so they need to spread the misery.
- There are also a group of wannabe's who talk the talk but can do much outside of this. They are probably sitting at home with nothing better to do because they have been total misfits their whole lives.

So what do all of this have to do with this discussion thread? Mathematically, nothing, but on the level of trying to get to the bottom line of the questions? Alot. All of this garbage and menusha is just overwhelming the bottom line here. Why dont we have clear information proving one way or another? Because neither side can prove conclusively that some sites are not rigged. I am done wasting my time here. There are just not enough people here who really know how to get down to business in a constructive manner.

Good luck to all of you.
Guess the manual review didn't go as expected?
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:54 PM   #8440
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Guess the manual review didn't go as expected?
Actually, the manual review is extremely tedious. This is why I downloaded the free trial of PT to start collecting hands in real time but the program is not working. I had a friend who uses it take a look at my computer and he couldnt even figure it out. I am looking into Holdem Manager to see if that would work for my needs. Maybe Holden Manager can import those hands. Someone told me otherwise earlier in the the discussion thread at beginning of my time here. I will absolutely post the results when I get this figured out, whether I am wrong or not. I dont have an ego over this stuff, I am learning...

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 09-11-2009 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:06 PM   #8441
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Actually, the manual review is extremely tedious. This is why I downloaded the free trial of PT to start collecting hands in real time but the program is not working. I had a friend who uses it take a look at my computer and he couldnt even figure it out. I am looking into Holdem Manager to see if that would work for my needs. Maybe Holden Manager can import those hands. Someone told me otherwise earlier in the the discussion thread at beginning of my time here. I will absolutely post the results when I get this figured out, whether I am wrong or not. I dont have an ego over this stuff, I am learning...
Please do. I'm not too familiar with tracking software, but is it possible to send your hands to your friend who has the program and get him to run it?
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:08 PM   #8442
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Please do. I'm not too familiar with tracking software, but is it possible to send your hands to your friend who has the program and get him to run it?
Brilliant Idea! LOL! (duh...that would have been easy). My initial focus was just to get it running to start collecting hand history on it though. It never occured to me that point that I could load history into because I was told that I had to do that manually.

I'lll ask him this weekend. Any PT experts? Am I going to have trouble loading the Pstars format of hand history into PT?
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:15 PM   #8443
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Here is yet another attempt to redirect and make blurry the subject matter.

I feel like I am trying to interact with adults stricken with Aspergers Syndrome. You cannot see past anything but pure numbers even though people, who by the way are very flawed are involved in the subject matter we are discussing. It is like trying to herd cats talking to you, instead of responding directly to the statement or question, you either answer in a way that benefits your own agenda or position. I admire that you have some skills of manipulation, that probably works well on the poker table, but I just dont think that belongs in this thread.

If developing a thicker skin means that I become as cynical, condescending and sarcastic as some of the posters here, I say "No Thanks" to that.

Here is what I learned so far about this thread on 2+2:

- Online sites troll here
- Some posters think they are brighter than they really are
- Some of the community here actually have good written communication skills and can see more than just "Black and White" in the discussions.
- Some are just hopelessly lost in their mental illness or where just born geniuses afflicted with mild autism (like Aspergers) which doesnt allow them to see anything outside of pure numbers.
- Some posters clearly have issues with attention deficit disorder
- Others just have an evil agenda because life has not been too good to them, so they need to spread the misery.
- There are also a group of wannabe's who talk the talk but cant do much outside of this. They are probably sitting at home with nothing better to do because they have been total misfits their whole lives.

So what does all of this have to do with this discussion thread? Mathematically, nothing, but on the level of trying to get to the bottom line on the questions? Alot. All of this garbage and menusha is just overwhelming the bottom line here. Why dont we have clear information proving one way or another? Because neither side can prove conclusively that some sites are not rigged. I am done wasting my time here. There are just not enough people here who really know how to get down to business in a constructive manner.

Good luck to all of you.
I had to check Urban Dictionary to find out what menusha meant but I've learnt something today, so thanks.

Why don't we have clear information proving rigged theories one way or another? Because you haven't posted any. Of course you can't prove anything with your small database but you can certainly prove the bad run you have had rather than just rambling on about Aspergers for no reason.

Why do you criticise people for not being able to "see past anything but pure numbers" ? This is all you need to see. So post some.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:16 PM   #8444
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Darn, and I just waited another minute or two responding to his last post at the same time he was telling us all to **** off!
Not all of you.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:26 PM   #8445
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Brilliant Idea! LOL! (duh...that would have been easy). My initial focus was just to get it running to start collecting hand history on it though. It never occured to me that point that I could load history into because I was told that I had to do that manually.

I'lll ask him this weekend. Any PT experts? Am I going to have trouble loading the Pstars format of hand history into PT?
As I posted above, it should be very simple. In the import hand histories section there are two choice: auto and manual. When you click on manul it'll ask you what folder you saved your HHs in, voila it should work no problem.

Donko, the reason so many are focussed on the math aspect is because that is exactly how proving a site is rigged will occur, short of someone from a site just coming out and admitting it. If the deal is being rigged in any significant manner, it will show in the stats over a big enough sample.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:57 PM   #8446
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
lets say a poker room changes the RNG during a limited space of time. making favorite hands pre flop and in the flop to win less frequently than expected at the SD.
All and RNG does is randomly order 52 cards. You can't just tweak it to shave off percentages, since that relies on people playing exactly how you want them to.
Quote:
hHow could that be detected through a data analisys.
You don't think anybody'd notice that they were running bad at the same time as a lot of other people? That's pretty much what happened with the Cereus superusers.
Quote:
I mean, if you take data from a long enough period of time the anomaly would be disguised.
If it's such a small amount of rigging that it's virtually undetectable, how would it benefit the site?
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:02 PM   #8447
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Not all of you.
Even Monteroy has moments of brilliance in between the flotsam and the jetsam...

Again, thank you for the constructive information and NO Thank You for the garbage that doesnt belong in this discussion. I will try to refrain from unloading my own garbage in the future. Just dont press the big red button that says "DONT PRESS THIS" and I wont turn into a worthless garbage talking gremlin...lol!

There should be a thread call trash talk on 2+2 though, it could center around topics as the arena and have no holds barred types of matches. That would be fun...

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 09-11-2009 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:08 PM   #8448
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Darn, and I just waited another minute or two responding to his last post at the same time he was telling us all to **** off!
We apparently all have Aspergers and he is a riggedologist that will not come out of the closet and seems to take a whole lot of time to avoid doing simple research but will expend most of his time on, well, the above thought experiments. Makes for weird dynamics at times and is getting tiring.

Within a month he will be tk basically if that long.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:19 PM   #8449
DonkoTheClown
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
We apparently all have Aspergers and he is a riggedologist that will not come out of the closet and seems to take a whole lot of time to avoid doing simple research but will expend most of his time on, well, the above thought experiments. Makes for weird dynamics at times and is getting tiring.

Within a month he will be tk basically if that long.
LOL! Touche'

I will not be here long enough to be thrown into the same catagory if things continue they way they have been. I am trying to do all of this in between clients and just dont have the time or the patience.

Stay tuned for my results rigged or not rigged. I am sure that my sample size is going to be too small for most of the rigtard hunters here. So I will keep collecting more.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:24 PM   #8450
DonkoTheClown
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
I had to check Urban Dictionary to find out what menusha meant but I've learnt something today, so thanks.

Why don't we have clear information proving rigged theories one way or another? Because you haven't posted any. Of course you can't prove anything with your small database but you can certainly prove the bad run you have had rather than just rambling on about Aspergers for no reason.

Why do you criticise people for not being able to "see past anything but pure numbers" ? This is all you need to see. So post some.
If it is so easy, why hasnt anyone else posted something of relevance in either direction? I have asked to see some of this kind of stuff because my sample size is small at 60,000 hands. I did find one study online but it didnt look conclusive to me in my limited experience as a hack first time statistician.
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