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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-10-2009, 03:20 PM   #8401
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Very easy theory to test. Many of these companies are publicly traded and in their annual statements they will have this income clearly stated.

Look at those figures and decide if you think that's worth it for them to risk their entire business (hint: it aint a lot relatively speaking).

If that theory does not pan out you will have to come up with another one and this thread can be a great resource for that.

Good luck.
Greed makes a lot of things possible that should not be happening.

Is Pokerstars and Fulltilt publicly traded? I know that party poker is, but I cant play there because I am an American. (I miss Party Poker)

How come no one complains much about Party Poker in this thread?
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:21 PM   #8402
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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I am not against whatever random audits you are talking about (and to be blunt I doubt you really have a clue what you even want). I am fairly indifferent to them because they are not something I am concerned about.

I do play at Full Tilt and Stars. I know exactly what I want thank you. I want to be assured that every card dealt on every deal is 100% random. I don't believe this is too much to ask.

37% of the people responding to the poll here believe this is not the case. I am not convinced one way or the other.

Why would you not be concerned about that??
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:33 PM   #8403
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Greed makes a lot of things possible that should not be happening.

Is Pokerstars and Fulltilt publicly traded? I know that party poker is, but I cant play there because I am an American. (I miss Party Poker)

How come no one complains much about Party Poker in this thread?
As far as your drop in the bucket response is concerned, how do we know that a very limited number of persons at the top of the online poker site structure is not agressively investing part or most of those funds? How do we know if a big chunk of the deposits hasnt been lost to bad investments? The employees for these sites would not know this was going on and could easily be completely innocent in the middle of this situation.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:40 PM   #8404
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Greed makes a lot of things possible that should not be happening.

Is Pokerstars and Fulltilt publicly traded? I know that party poker is, but I cant play there because I am an American. (I miss Party Poker)

How come no one complains much about Party Poker in this thread?
No Americans on Party for years so a lot more non English people play there and likely that site has less player representation in this forum compared to Stars and Tilt. Party has plenty of riggedologists, all sites do.

It does not matter if they are publicly traded, the ratios should be similar (income from interest/investments vs income).

Undefined "greed" as a motivation is way to vague. Even you would not suggest they would risk this all for $1 a year or 0.0001% of their earnings. If it represented 50% of their earnings one can make more of a case for it.

Why not do a little leg work to analyze your theory with the publicly traded companies and see what it reveals. Should not take more than an hour or so. Get back to us with the results. Then re-evaluate your greed theory.


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As far as your drop in the bucket response is concerned, how do we know that a very limited number of persons at the top of the online poker site structure is not agressively investing part or most of those funds? How do we know if a big chunk of the deposits hasnt been lost to bad investments? The employees for these sites would not know this was going on and could easily be completely innocent in the middle of this situation.
Dude. Do some minor legwork. Stop making stuff up that is akin to superbots.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:57 PM   #8405
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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No Americans on Party for years so a lot more non English people play there and likely that site has less player representation in this forum compared to Stars and Tilt. Party has plenty of riggedologists, all sites do.

It does not matter if they are publicly traded, the ratios should be similar (income from interest/investments vs income).

Undefined "greed" as a motivation is way to vague. Even you would not suggest they would risk this all for $1 a year or 0.0001% of their earnings. If it represented 50% of their earnings one can make more of a case for it.

Why not do a little leg work to analyze your theory with the publicly traded companies and see what it reveals. Should not take more than an hour or so. Get back to us with the results. Then re-evaluate your greed theory.




Dude. Do some minor legwork. Stop making stuff up that is akin to superbots.
LOL! You asked me to roll out my reasons for thinking that something could be going on. Thats what I did. I just expanded a little further to try and support why something might be happening. We just dont know without proof though. It is all going to have to go back to hand histories because that is all we seem to have. I am building my database for more reasons than just making sure I am getting a fair deal.

By the way, greed is not a theory, it is a fact of life for some individuals who's moral foundation has been compromised due to poor upbringing, genetic predisposition or....maybe...it is SATAN!!!! LOL!
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:05 PM   #8406
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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As far as your drop in the bucket response is concerned, how do we know that a very limited number of persons at the top of the online poker site structure is not agressively investing part or most of those funds? How do we know if a big chunk of the deposits hasnt been lost to bad investments?
Because Stars reps have told us what bank the players funds are held in, and that they're in savings accounts. I think they get <2% interest on the player funds but I'm not 100% sure.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:09 PM   #8407
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Because Stars reps have told us what bank the players funds are held in, and that they're in savings accounts. I think they get <2% interest on the player funds but I'm not 100% sure.
And because the IoM government very strictly regulates what Stars can do and cannot do with player deposits. They are not at risk of any loss at all. Read the regulations.

Some of the fly-by-night unregulated sites, maybe most of the really small ones, use player funds to operate the business and basically run a Ponzi scheme (and don't hide it). Big sites don't do this.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:16 PM   #8408
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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The point of a random audit is to ensure that the RNG that has been tested and found to be valid is in fact the one being used at all times.

Online Poker is a unique business. Why should it matter what is "normal" for another business?

If I owned a poker site I would look at the fact that 37% of respondents here believe online poker is rigged and I would do something proactive to combat that perception.

I play at Full Tilt and Stars almost every day , so obviously I don't believe they are cheating me. Why not take these extra steps to convince others to sign up?

Do you play at Full Tilt?? Would you cash out and close your account if they announced that from this point onwards they would be subject to a random audit?

What's the harm?
Over a third of Americans believe 9/11 was a government conspiracy(http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll)

28% of Republicans don't believe Obama was born in the USA (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/poll-28-of-republican-base-are-birthers.php?ref=fpblg)

Polls show between 6%-25% of people believe the moon landing was faked. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/07/17/moon.landing.hoax/index.html)

My point being, that there are people out there who believe certain things and they won't believe otherwise no matter what happens. As our resident rigtard Tk points out repeatedly: if he doesn't KNOW the auditors and the CEO then how can it be trusted?

Rigtards will always believe it is rigged because they can't accept they suck at poker and don't understand variance. This thread is living proof of this.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:22 PM   #8409
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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LOL! You asked me to roll out my reasons for thinking that something could be going on. Thats what I did. I just expanded a little further to try and support why something might be happening. We just dont know without proof though. It is all going to have to go back to hand histories because that is all we seem to have. I am building my database for more reasons than just making sure I am getting a fair deal.

By the way, greed is not a theory, it is a fact of life for some individuals who's moral foundation has been compromised due to poor upbringing, genetic predisposition or....maybe...it is SATAN!!!! LOL!
How do I know you don't beat women? Men can be quite aggressive at times and there are countless episodes of spousal abuse around the world. You have not shown any reason for me to not believe you beat women.

Would it be fair for someone to approach you in the street and say that to you? I mean, it's all true right? Or would you hope that they would require EVIDENCE of you beating women before they suggest you may have done it?
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:24 PM   #8410
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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LOL! You asked me to roll out my reasons for thinking that something could be going on. Thats what I did. I just expanded a little further to try and support why something might be happening. We just dont know without proof though. It is all going to have to go back to hand histories because that is all we seem to have. I am building my database for more reasons than just making sure I am getting a fair deal.
I gave you a very simple way for you to check on your greed theory. Apparently you will not be doing that. Cannot claim to be shocked that no research will be forthcoming. Instead you will just add more "what ifs" to the mix which I suppose is common in this thread.

You do not need to look at your hand histories to research the percentage that "interest and investments" on player deposits represents to a site, but whatever.

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By the way, greed is not a theory, it is a fact of life for some individuals who's moral foundation has been compromised due to poor upbringing, genetic predisposition or....maybe...it is SATAN!!!! LOL!
Murder is a fact of life, but that does not mean half the population randomly kills people every day.

Whether greed is a motivating factor tends to be based on the potential reward and the risk. You seem unwilling to look into the reward part (in terms of significance) and you seem to discount the risk part all together (common in riggedologist thinking).

Not really sure where else this chat can go.

Good luck looking at your hand histories I guess. Unfortunate for you that you are choosing this path instead of just working on your game. But choice is yours.

All the best.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:28 PM   #8411
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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If I owned a poker site I would look at the fact that 37% of respondents here believe online poker is rigged and I would do something proactive to combat that perception.
More likely they realize that 99.9% of 2+2 members don't vote in stupid polls, and they can live with 37% of 1/10th of a percent thinking they cheat out the ass 24/7 and not worry much about it.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:38 PM   #8412
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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More likely they realize that 99.9% of 2+2 members don't vote in stupid polls, and they can live with 37% of 1/10th of a percent thinking they cheat out the ass 24/7 and not worry much about it.
Sad. But, probably true. I am surprised that more people don't care. This apathy ensures the status quo for the sites.

I am genuinely surprised that the 2+2 community is so apathetic. After all they are the ones who outed the scammers at AP/UB. I would have thought that they would be leading the charge for more transparency and accountability from the sites.

Instead, these questions are simply dumped into the "rigtard thread collection" and summarily dismissed.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:39 PM   #8413
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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More likely they realize that 99.9% of 2+2 members don't vote in stupid polls, and they can live with 37% of 1/10th of a percent thinking they cheat out the ass 24/7 and not worry much about it.
+the fact that nearly all the people who say that online poker is rigged CONTINUE TO PLAY.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:50 PM   #8414
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Sad. But, probably true. I am surprised that more people don't care. This apathy ensures the status quo for the sites.
People do care. They just tend to care about actual threats that do matter like collusion, fraud, bots, poker room financial health etc.

You just seem to think a marginal issue (to customers) should not be marginal. That's just an error in judgment, not much more.

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I am genuinely surprised that the 2+2 community is so apathetic. After all they are the ones who outed the scammers at AP/UB. I would have thought that they would be leading the charge for more transparency and accountability from the sites.
That was an area that mattered and people did more than have thought experiments about superbots, they did research and math to back their claims (which had nothing to do with a flawed RnG).

This thread is filled with all sorts of people on their soapboxes about really marginal issues that are relatively unimportant compared to real threats as well as purely made up fantasy stuff. Yours is more the former, but it is still relatively unimportant.


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Instead, these questions are simply dumped into the "rigtard thread collection" and summarily dismissed.
If what you were asking was important to players then it would not matter which thread it was in.

Last edited by Monteroy; 09-10-2009 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:04 PM   #8415
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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If what you were asking was important to players then it would not matter which thread it was in.
Just wondering. What site(s) do you play on??
And are you affiliated in any way with any poker sites?

Just curious as to what motivates you to post here.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:18 PM   #8416
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Just wondering. What site(s) do you play on??
And are you affiliated in any way with any poker sites?

Just curious as to what motivates you to post here.
I play on Stars and ipoker and I guess Party when they toss me $50 or 100 free once in a while. I used to play on the Crypto rooms before they shut down.

I am not affiliated with any site, but you can imagine any world you like where I have all sorts of sinister motives. That is part of the charm of this thread so it will fit in.

Motivation varies. Sometimes it is to have fun with clearly paranoid people. Once in a while it is to try to genuinely offer logic and rational thinking to people on the edge of the real/riggedologist world (like Donko) though that tends to fall apart once they have a few more bad beats.

Sometimes it is to point out the logical real world perspective of an opinion like yours on the auditing process (in terms of it being important to a player).

Pretty simple stuff, usually between rounds of tournaments or when I am winding them down, but again you are welcome to construct any creative thought experiment about my motives as you see fit (a behavior I often actively encourage as it is fun to see the results).

Hope that helped.

All the best.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:58 PM   #8417
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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How do I know you don't beat women? Men can be quite aggressive at times and there are countless episodes of spousal abuse around the world. You have not shown any reason for me to not believe you beat women.

Would it be fair for someone to approach you in the street and say that to you? I mean, it's all true right? Or would you hope that they would require EVIDENCE of you beating women before they suggest you may have done it?
You are right, if you saw my girlfriend looking bruised and if you saw her looking depressed, you might want to look into what is going on for her sake and for your sake because you dont want to watch he news one day and see that she is dead or in a coma and have to live with that for the rest of your life.

We can take this in any direction you want, good comparisons, ridiculous comparisons and everything in between. Online poker is different than lizard men or spousal abuse or even bank robbery. You have to consider the information and pass your judgement based on the circumstantial and real evidence.

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Old 09-10-2009, 08:17 PM   #8418
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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You are right, is you saw my girlfriend looking bruised and if you saw her looking depressed, you might want to look into what is going on for her sake and for your sake because you dont want to watch he news one day and see that she is dead or in a coma and have to live with that for the rest of your life.

We can take this in any direction you want, good comparisons, ridiculous comparisons and everything in between. Online poker is different than lizard men or spousal abuse or even bank robbery. You have to consider the information and pass your judgement based on the circumstantial and real evidence.
I have as much evidence that you beat women as you do that online poker is rigged. In fact one could argue, there is far MORE evidence suggesting online poker isn't rigged than there is that you don't beat your wife.

I'm sorry you don't understand that the reference wasn't to compare you beating women to online poker being rigged, but rather to compare the logical fallacies involved in both conclusions.

What is your "evidence" that online poker is rigged? And no, human fallibility, or unsubstantiated theories are not evidence, nor are things that are more likely explained by variance.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:19 PM   #8419
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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I gave you a very simple way for you to check on your greed theory. Apparently you will not be doing that. Cannot claim to be shocked that no research will be forthcoming. Instead you will just add more "what ifs" to the mix which I suppose is common in this thread.

You do not need to look at your hand histories to research the percentage that "interest and investments" on player deposits represents to a site, but whatever.



Murder is a fact of life, but that does not mean half the population randomly kills people every day.

Whether greed is a motivating factor tends to be based on the potential reward and the risk. You seem unwilling to look into the reward part (in terms of significance) and you seem to discount the risk part all together (common in riggedologist thinking).

Not really sure where else this chat can go.

Good luck looking at your hand histories I guess. Unfortunate for you that you are choosing this path instead of just working on your game. But choice is yours.

All the best.
Your argument is always so over the top and out of proportion to the discussion.

You know the answer...PS and FT are not publicly traded. I am not finding anything on the internet that says one word about what either of these sites are reporting for earnings.

So where does this take this discussion? Absolutely nowhere as usual because these sites are not willing to be absolutely transparent about their dealings.

You didnt answer my question earlier, which site are trolling for? Josem is at least man enough to speak the truth and even try to be helpful here. Your approach is just infamatory and devoid of any real substance.

You are posting like you are the expert on all of this, I am not seeing any expert analysis in your words here. I am seeing poor comparisons, sarcasm, arogance and a hint of defensiveness. This just doesnt sit well in my gut.

Dude you are no match for me in discussions like these because I wake people up to their false pretenses and denial filled lives for a living. You are just like another one of my clients who dont have a anywhere near a real sense of themselves.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:22 PM   #8420
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Sad. But, probably true. I am surprised that more people don't care. This apathy ensures the status quo for the sites.

I am genuinely surprised that the 2+2 community is so apathetic. After all they are the ones who outed the scammers at AP/UB. I would have thought that they would be leading the charge for more transparency and accountability from the sites.

Instead, these questions are simply dumped into the "rigtard thread collection" and summarily dismissed.
AMEN!
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:27 PM   #8421
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Dude you are no match for me in discussions like these because I wake people up to their false pretenses and denial filled lives for a living. You are just like another one of my clients who dont have a anywhere near a real sense of themselves.
I'm not just saying this because I agree with Monteroy I PROMISE YOU. But, you sound FAR less intelligent than him. Your writing is average at best and your arguments are poorly constructed. So far he is OWNING you in this thread. I think most would agree.

EDIT: I mean this in the sense, that despite not agreeing with someone I can still sense intelligence in dialogue. For example, I disagree strongly with Glenn Beck, but I can still see him as an intelligent person, probably more intelligent than I am. On the other hand, it is clear you are lacking in the critical thinking/logic department and don't have the necessary skills to present extremely good arguments. I don't mean this as an ad hominem, it is completely separate from the point of the argument. I just lol'd at your above statement.

Last edited by KingOfFelt; 09-10-2009 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:29 PM   #8422
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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I play on Stars and ipoker and I guess Party when they toss me $50 or 100 free once in a while. I used to play on the Crypto rooms before they shut down.

I am not affiliated with any site, but you can imagine any world you like where I have all sorts of sinister motives. That is part of the charm of this thread so it will fit in.



Sometimes it is to point out the logical real world perspective of an opinion like yours on the auditing process (in terms of it being important to a player).

Pretty simple stuff, usually between rounds of tournaments or when I am winding them down, but again you are welcome to construct any creative thought experiment about my motives as you see fit (a behavior I often actively encourage as it is fun to see the results).

Hope that helped.

All the best.
Well its good to know that you are not simply a shill for some poker site. And thank you for pointing out logical real world perspectives to me and what is important to poker players.

Sometimes my ill formed and illogical ideas get the best of me. Keep up the good work!
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:33 PM   #8423
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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I have as much evidence that you beat women as you do that online poker is rigged. In fact one could argue, there is far MORE evidence suggesting online poker isn't rigged than there is that you don't beat your wife.

I'm sorry you don't understand that the reference wasn't to compare you beating women to online poker being rigged, but rather to compare the logical fallacies involved in both conclusions.

What is your "evidence" that online poker is rigged? And no, human fallibility, or unsubstantiated theories are not evidence, nor are things that are more likely explained by variance.
This is so where you are missing the boat, I have not said that online poker is rigged, I said that I am either running bad or something is up with the site that I have been playing on. I am coming here and trying to do some research with people I would think have a pretty good handle on what is going on, but all I am seeing is really weak and very defensive argument.

You guys have actually made a lot of people become more suspect as a result of your irresponsible approach.

Again for the last time, I am not willing to state that online poker is rigged without the evidence, but I am concerned that some sites might be. I am just following up to gain some more information about this subject. I have learned some things from some of the posters, but I have been very curious about the motivations of others especially when the argument is reduced to black or white. There are lots of ways to paint a picture not just with two very opposite colors. As intelligent as you seem to be, you are so missing this...
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:37 PM   #8424
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Dude you are no match for me in discussions like these because I wake people up to their false pretenses and denial filled lives for a living. You are just like another one of my clients who dont have a anywhere near a real sense of themselves.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:39 PM   #8425
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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You didnt answer my question earlier, which site are trolling for? Josem is at least man enough to speak the truth and even try to be helpful here. Your approach is just infamatory and devoid of any real substance.
Why is this the default ad hominem for so many "unsure" people and rigtards?

From now on I'm just assuming that anyone who suggests online might not be fair is a shill for Real Deal, until they prove otherwise.
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