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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:29 PM   #8376
toltec444
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Yes, I agree with you. My Superbots theory is just Super!!!!
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:52 PM   #8377
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by StripSqueeze View Post
My findings so far are that there are no recent independent audits of the software for either Full Tilt or Poker Stars.

I don't believe that either site is "fixed" or "evil". I would just like to see an independent audit on a regular and /or random basis.

Why would you as a player be against this?

I do not play at Full Tilt because apparently creating a non money account 5 years ago that I have never even logged into prevents me from getting rakeback today. I kind of wonder about their business model at times.

I play at Stars because they offer a good selection of games I prefer, solid software, good customer service (albeit a bit cold at times), good security (RSA token for instance).

I think both are very financially secure and run their businesses with a long term plan and I cannot think of any reason why either would program their software to impact my results good or bad, and I have had some days (like today) that would make the most crazed riggedologist's head spin.

Their deals are fair in my opinion (for a variety of common sense and business reasons I have stated before) so it is not a deep concern to me to know the details of how their software works, because I have faith that it is a fair game. If there are flaws they are the first to rush to fix it (heads up sit and go mess at Stars is a recent example).

I am not against whatever random audits you are talking about (and to be blunt I doubt you really have a clue what you even want). I am fairly indifferent to them because they are not something I am concerned about.

If YOU are deeply concerned about it then do something about it. Propose exactly what you want to see done, in very specific details, and research to find out what is being done and what needs to be done and why.

Otherwise you are merely another person with a "thought experiment" who will never act on it.

No one is against "audits." Many just do not care for good reason. That's all. If you care, act on it. Have fun with it.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:59 PM   #8378
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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good customer service (albeit a bit cold at times).
show proof of stars customer service being "a bit cold at times". Ive never had that problem.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:18 PM   #8379
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by StripSqueeze View Post
OK. Who are the auditors? Where can I read the latest audit? (ie: within the past 6 months??
Each site details this on their website.

I don't understand why you require an audit within the last 6 months. Pretty much no business in the world, in almost any industry, has audits multiple times per year.

There's no point to audit a RNG generation system repeatedly, 'cause the process doesn't change. Once it is right, it is right: 1+1=2 forever, and the same applies to these mechanisms.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:25 PM   #8380
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

Monteroy,

Your last few posts regarding this subject has been written with clarity, thoughtfulness, and objectively. It's too bad that there are others who continue to try and bait you into "arguing" the matter, which I don't think is your intent at all.

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Originally Posted by PSUStudent View Post
show proof of stars customer service being "a bit cold at times". Ive never had that problem.
PSUStudent,

Not to speak for Monteroy but what he said about PokerStars customer support can merely be his opinion and experience, which could very well be contrary to yours (and it looks like it is).

I think PokerStars customer support has been excellent to me over the years. Would I have to provide proof of that to you?

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Old 09-09-2009, 11:38 PM   #8381
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by vanisher_2+2 View Post


PSUStudent,

Not to speak for Monteroy but what he said about PokerStars customer support can merely be his opinion and experience, which could very well be contrary to yours (and it looks like it is).

I think PokerStars customer support has been excellent to me over the years. Would I have to provide proof of that to you?

I'm not asking you a question. Why are you speaking for Monteroy with your boring lame attempts at tryin to be a smartass? Stay out of it unless you can provide proof answering the question I asked, which you probably cannot because you've had an 'excellent' experience.

Monteroy I'd still be interested if you can provide examples where you think Stars support was 'cold'. I'm guessing it was just them persisting on enforcing a policy that wasn't in accordance with your agenda at the time.

Besides that, I am not interested in derailing topic of this 'great' thread.

Last edited by PSUStudent; 09-09-2009 at 11:47 PM. Reason: Wee with that post, I'm offciailly upgraded from 'newbie' to 'enthusiast'. Take that newbs! lol
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:19 AM   #8382
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

These criteria still continue in modern psychiatric diagnosis. The most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines a delusion as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.



There is controversy over this definition, as 'despite what almost everybody else believes' implies that a person who believes something most others do not is a candidate for delusional thought. Furthermore, it is ironic that, while the above three criteria are usually attributed to Jaspers, he himself described them as only 'vague' and merely 'external'.[1] He also wrote that, since the genuine or 'internal' 'criteria for delusion proper lie in the primary experience of delusion and in the change of the personality [and not in the above three loosely descriptive criteria], we can see that a delusion may be correct in content without ceasing to be a delusion, for instance - that there is a world-war.'
Woo-hoo.

tk1133 has learned to cut and paste!
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:00 AM   #8383
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Please don't respond. A reference is usually done by somebody that personally knows somebody or something....


Reference:

the giving of the name of another person who can offer information or recommendation
the person so indicated
a written statement of character, qualification, or ability, as of someone seeking a position; testimonial
You are mixing up things. "Reference" and "reputable" are not synonymous. You don't have to know the CEO's etc personally to consider a company "reputable".

rep⋅u⋅ta⋅ble
  /ˈrɛpyətəbəl/ [rep-yuh-tuh-buhl]
–adjective
1. held in good repute; honorable; respectable; estimable: a reputable organization.
2. considered to be good or acceptable usage; standard: reputable speech.

rep·u·ta·ble (rěp'yə-tə-bəl)
adj. Having a good reputation; honorable.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:30 AM   #8384
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by PSUStudent View Post
I'm not asking you a question. Why are you speaking for Monteroy with your boring lame attempts at tryin to be a smartass? Stay out of it unless you can provide proof answering the question I asked, which you probably cannot because you've had an 'excellent' experience.
One question: Who died and made you God?

Just because you've got 50 posts doesn't meant that anyone is going to take any notice of you if you start issuing orders and throwing your weight around.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:28 AM   #8385
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
LOL

Obama.. in the conservatory.. with a 9/11 hijacker.. and a superduperbot.. with a [very sharp] lemon peeler.




I knew it!!


Waat?!?



How did she creep in there??
I learned how to quote myself..

Nobody liked my Clue "Rigged Edition" cards??

Or the cleavage??

Sick bastards!
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:56 AM   #8386
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by PSUStudent View Post
I'm not asking you a question. Why are you speaking for Monteroy with your boring lame attempts at tryin to be a smartass? Stay out of it unless you can provide proof answering the question I asked, which you probably cannot because you've had an 'excellent' experience.

Monteroy I'd still be interested if you can provide examples where you think Stars support was 'cold'. I'm guessing it was just them persisting on enforcing a policy that wasn't in accordance with your agenda at the time.

Besides that, I am not interested in derailing topic of this 'great' thread.
I am guessing you just did not understand the meaning of the word cold, and perhaps it was not the best word choice on my part, though in this thread I usually opt for smaller ones for certain people.

Impersonal/robotic would be better words to describe the first level of support, but that makes sense for a company the size of Stars, and in fact it is the ideal approach to 99%+ of mundane queries.

In contrast, smaller rooms like Pokerplex can often times feature very personal customer service because each customer means a lot more to them. Scott always makes his players feel like they matter (a common theme you will see in any of the threads about that skin on ipoker).

In the middle is a place like Interpoker/Intercasino which features extremely friendly customer service though often ineffective at doing much.

Hope that better explains it, even though it is pretty much common business sense, based on the size of the companies involved.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:25 AM   #8387
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post

Impersonal/robotic would be better words to describe the first level of support, but that makes sense for a company the size of Stars, and in fact it is the ideal approach to 99%+ of mundane queries.

Hope that better explains it, even though it is pretty much common business sense, based on the size of the companies involved.
I figured you might be referring to the automated responses because I'd be surprised to see one instance where Stars support is rude to players. And you pretty much explained it why it makes business sense for them to do it and 100% the right way to do it.

So anyway onto your "poker is rigged" debate..did I mention I don't think it is although that goes without saying. Debate on people.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:23 AM   #8388
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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I figured you might be referring to the automated responses because I'd be surprised to see one instance where Stars support is rude to players. And you pretty much explained it why it makes business sense for them to do it and 100% the right way to do it.

So anyway onto your "poker is rigged" debate..did I mention I don't think it is although that goes without saying. Debate on people.
No, I am not talking about automated responses (aka: this confirms we have received your email yadda yadda).

I am talking about how the first level of response replies to more specific questions, and yes it makes complete sense in 99%+ of the questions, but sometimes it lacks the personal touch that the <1% of issues sometimes require.

Again, a product of their size, nothing more. No idea why this was even an issue since it is basic business 101 in terms of dynamics.

If some of the riggedologists saw the size, scope, magnitude and sheer mundane nature of how a company this size has to run it's operation they might re-think how amusing their superbots theories are when trying to fit them in such a structure.
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:15 AM   #8389
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
I learned how to quote myself..

Nobody liked my Clue "Rigged Edition" cards??

Or the cleavage??

Sick bastards!
I got a chuckle! +1
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:43 AM   #8390
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

At least someone enjoyed it. Don't know why I've been so semi-obsessed with that game lately

Last edited by LVGambler; 09-10-2009 at 11:45 AM. Reason: the terrorist card got me laughin.. and the superduperbot
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:55 AM   #8391
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Maybe this is more suitable??


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Old 09-10-2009, 01:00 PM   #8392
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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I agree, definately rigged against you. Stay away from Bodog as well as it's rigged in my favor.
Does Bodog even have any traffic these days? Last time I was there, it was rigged against finding any games with people on them...lol!
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:03 PM   #8393
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NooooBingo View Post
Now I know the pic is grainy, but...



existence confirmed.

I guess this means super bots also exist. Ooda thunk it!?!
LOL! OH NO!!!
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:21 PM   #8394
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by notnac View Post
And it's not just my hands, it's other people's hands at the table. No one else is saying it's happening to them yet, so yeah I'll accept it's just me for the time being.
It's not just you, it happens to a lot of people. I myself have not been convinved in either direction about the rigged theory. I am going to play another series of tournaments on FT to see how it goes. My last 60,000 hands on stars look dismal with the 2-6 out beats. I havent even looked at the info on AA and KK yet...

See if it continues and make sure you track your hand histories directly to your hard drive or to pokertracker or holdem manager so you can decide for yourself. Let the guys know here if you start seeing something that is beyond variance. You dont need one million hands for that.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:55 PM   #8395
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
It's not just you, it happens to a lot of people. I myself have not been convinved in either direction about the rigged theory. I am going to play another series of tournaments on FT to see how it goes. My last 60,000 hands on stars look dismal with the 2-6 out beats. I havent even looked at the info on AA and KK yet...

See if it continues and make sure you track your hand histories directly to your hard drive or to pokertracker or holdem manager so you can decide for yourself. Let the guys know here if you start seeing something that is beyond variance. You dont need one million hands for that.
You still never answered the question of why you think they would even target you (going with the huge stretch of an assumption that they target anyone).

What distinction does your account have that would require some kind of superbot correction? It's not like you are winning or losing that much in absolute terms. You are not a long time winning player. Your account is not new, you did not just complete a bonus. You did not just deposit or cash out. Those are the most common paranoid reasons people usually have for those beliefs.

Not saying any of those make actual sense, but at least it gives those people a framework for their beliefs. You just seem to think it may be rigged against you because it just is (if it is). Honestly, that makes even less sense than superbots or lizard people or cashout curses as it requires that they commit criminal acts against you and others for no real reason.

So, what is it?
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:08 PM   #8396
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
You still never answered the question of why you think they would even target you (going with the huge stretch of an assumption that they target anyone).

What distinction does your account have that would require some kind of superbot correction? It's not like you are winning or losing that much in absolute terms. You are not a long time winning player. Your account is not new, you did not just complete a bonus. You did not just deposit or cash out. Those are the most common paranoid reasons people usually have for those beliefs.

Not saying any of those make actual sense, but at least it gives those people a framework for their beliefs. You just seem to think it may be rigged against you because it just is (if it is). Honestly, that makes even less sense than superbots or lizard people or cashout curses as it requires that they commit criminal acts against you and others for no real reason.

So, what is it?
Huh?
I never said that it was rigged against me personally. Not sure were you got that. I am not the superbot guy. I said that I thought, based on the amount of miracle bad beats I have seen and my hand histories that I am either running really, really bad, or the site is rigged for its own benefit to maximize its bottom line. 60,000 hands does not a conclusive argument make. (I saw the Yoda picture)

Get your facts straight before you lay into someone.

You sure post a lot on this thread, honestly, do you work for one of the online sites? not being sarcastic, just asking...
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:27 PM   #8397
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Huh?
I never said that it was rigged against me personally. Not sure were you got that. I am not the superbot guy. I said that I thought, based on the amount of miracle bad beats I have seen and my hand histories that I am either running really, really bad, or the site is rigged for its own benefit to maximize its bottom line. 60,000 hands does not a conclusive argument make. (I saw the Yoda picture)

Get your facts straight before you lay into someone.

You sure post a lot on this thread, honestly, do you work for one of the online sites? not being sarcastic, just asking...
My facts are straight. Not saying you are superbot guy, but you are still not sure if the deal is fair with your hands.

Therefore, if it involves your hands it must be rigged against you if it is rigged.

Superbot guy is a bit detached from reality but he at least has a reason why he thinks he is the target of superbots.

You do not seem to have any reason why the site would rig it against you or rig it in hands you are in, but you still are not convinced that it is fair because of your downswing. You should at least have a reason why they would manipulate games that you are in when researching it, otherwise it makes no sense.

As is, if you decide to become a riggedologist your theory will be

It is rigged, I know it. I have no reason why they would rig it but they just do because I know it.

At least superbot guy had reasons.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:05 PM   #8398
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
My facts are straight. Not saying you are superbot guy, but you are still not sure if the deal is fair with your hands.

Therefore, if it involves your hands it must be rigged against you if it is rigged.

Superbot guy is a bit detached from reality but he at least has a reason why he thinks he is the target of superbots.

You do not seem to have any reason why the site would rig it against you or rig it in hands you are in, but you still are not convinced that it is fair because of your downswing. You should at least have a reason why they would manipulate games that you are in when researching it, otherwise it makes no sense.

As is, if you decide to become a riggedologist your theory will be

It is rigged, I know it. I have no reason why they would rig it but they just do because I know it.

At least superbot guy had reasons.
I think you missed that post.

My theory is that if a site could minimize the cashouts and keep a larger pool of deposits in their possession, they are going to be able to make more money off that pool of money by either drawing interest on it or investing it. This would probably happen in the low to midstakes area because this is the most populated area and this population of players is least likely to really look at the information and try to prove that something is wrong.

You could simply build the programming to level the playing field a bit more so that mediocre to good players dont win as much and below mediocre to terrible players could tread water. Good players would think that they are just running bad and re deposit or keep playing and the other players would start depositing more and playing more.

Where I fall into the middle of this would be as my play starts getting better and I start setting some really nasty traps, the software starts to make its adjustments to level that off so that I cant win many hands when I am 80% or better. This also means that I dont win as much money if any, so I dont make yet another withdrawal. I am telling you, the longer I play and the better I get, the worse my luck has been. The question in my mind is, was this variance or was this artificially manufactured. I dont know. I am not going to drive myself crazy about it, but I am going to look at the hand histories and talk to people like you about my thought process because I would like to improve my view of what is going on and my game. This is why I am reading posts in several threads here, for amusement and growth.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:12 PM   #8399
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Each site details this on their website.

I don't understand why you require an audit within the last 6 months. Pretty much no business in the world, in almost any industry, has audits multiple times per year.

There's no point to audit a RNG generation system repeatedly, 'cause the process doesn't change. Once it is right, it is right: 1+1=2 forever, and the same applies to these mechanisms.
The point of a random audit is to ensure that the RNG that has been tested and found to be valid is in fact the one being used at all times.

Online Poker is a unique business. Why should it matter what is "normal" for another business?

If I owned a poker site I would look at the fact that 37% of respondents here believe online poker is rigged and I would do something proactive to combat that perception.

I play at Full Tilt and Stars almost every day , so obviously I don't believe they are cheating me. Why not take these extra steps to convince others to sign up?

Do you play at Full Tilt?? Would you cash out and close your account if they announced that from this point onwards they would be subject to a random audit?

What's the harm?
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:14 PM   #8400
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I think you missed that post.

My theory is that if a site could minimize the cashouts and keep a larger pool of deposits in their possession, they are going to be able to make more money off that pool of money by either drawing interest on it or investing it. This would probably happen in the low to midstakes area because this is the most populated area and this population of players is least likely to really look at the information and try to prove that something is wrong.

You could simply build the programming to level the playing field a bit more so that mediocre to good players dont win as much and below mediocre to terrible players could tread water. Good players would think that they are just running bad and re deposit or keep playing and the other players would start depositing more and playing more.

Where I fall into the middle of this would be as my play starts getting better and I start setting some really nasty traps, the software starts to make its adjustments to level that off so that I cant win many hands when I am 80% or better. This also means that I dont win as much money if any, so I dont make yet another withdrawal. I am telling you, the longer I play and the better I get, the worse my luck has been. The question in my mind is, was this variance or was this artificially manufactured. I dont know. I am not going to drive myself crazy about it, but I am going to look at the hand histories and talk to people like you about my thought process because I would like to improve my view of what is going on and my game. This is why I am reading posts in several threads here, for amusement and growth.

Very easy theory to test. Many of these companies are publicly traded and in their annual statements they will have this income clearly stated.

Look at those figures and decide if you think that's worth it for them to risk their entire business (hint: it aint a lot relatively speaking).

If that theory does not pan out you will have to come up with another one and this thread can be a great resource for that.

Good luck.
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