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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:14 PM   #8351
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
This has been done. If you care so much do some basic research.

I have.

The audits I have seen are all dated from 2003 or 2005. If you could point out one that was done for FullTilt within the last 6 months I would be glad to read it.

What I would like to see is ongoing monthly audits with random inspections. This is far different than some audit from years ago.

Why would the sites be against this?
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:20 PM   #8352
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by StripSqueeze View Post
I have.

The audits I have seen are all dated from 2003 or 2005. If you could point out one that was done for FullTilt within the last 6 months I would be glad to read it.

What I would like to see is ongoing monthly audits with random inspections. This is far different than some audit from years ago.

Why would the sites be against this?
One reason is that it would be too easy for some "independent auditor" to steal their proprietary server software.

Another reason is that it would still not satisfy some people. They would claim that the audits are rigged.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:24 PM   #8353
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by 99killed View Post
online poker is rigged. everyone knows. thats just how it is. std day iirc
Finally there is PROOF
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:39 PM   #8354
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

Its amazing to me when people have KK and push it AIPF and are "Amazed" that the villian called with AA. Compare the number of times you pushed KK and the villian folded, to the number of times they called. I would imagine they folded a lot more then you saw AA. I mean OF COURSE ITS AA the majority of the time they call, what the heck do you expect it to be?

As for the number of times you "should" see AA when you get KK (in a 6 max game, obviously FR is higher) is about 1 in 40.

So go back and look at all your KK hands and see not the number of times you got in all in with KK, but the number of times ever. If it is way higher then 1 in 40 times that your KK ended up against AA (or about 1 in 25 for FR) then you are just running bad with KK.

For the "Bad Beat" part of higher PP getting beat by lower PP, its 20%. That means out of any three in a row they will still get beat all three times about 1 in 100 times (which is often enough to happen on a regular basis when you play 10-20k hands a month). The numbers are much higher if you start to look at 3 out of 5 times etc. Given you might play 150 hands in two hours 3 outta number of times two PP go at it might be very likely.

Its statistics and the human mind "remembering" the exceptions while the normal outcomes are quickly forgotten.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:51 PM   #8355
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
This has been done. If you care so much do some basic research.
Here you go again. Again, since your so priveledged to have the honor of personally knowing the Auditors and CEO's of major poker sites, please share your personal experiences w/ us. Key word is Reputable
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:53 PM   #8356
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
One reason is that it would be too easy for some "independent auditor" to steal their proprietary server software.

Another reason is that it would still not satisfy some people. They would claim that the audits are rigged.

That is rather specious logic. I could not imagine a reputable auditing company stealing someones proprietary software. And lets get real. This is software for a poker site, not software to launch nuclear missiles.

True that this would still not satisfy some. However, it would satisfy many. So what's the harm?

As I wrote originally it would be a great marketing brag for a site to be able to say the are independently audited on a regular and/or random basis.

As a player how could you be against this?
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:00 PM   #8357
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

OP, next time use proper 2p2 poll fomatting:

Is Online Poker Rigged?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No
[x] Bastard!
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:06 PM   #8358
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Here you go again. Again, since your so priveledged to have the honor of personally knowing the Auditors and CEO's of major poker sites, please share your personal experiences w/ us. Key word is Reputable
An audit is only legit if you personally know the CEO of the company being audited and the auditors?

What is wrong with you? I'm not going to respond to you anymore. It is useless.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:27 PM   #8359
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by tiltninja View Post
yea definitely. i think full tilt tries to stack the deck against you in particular.
I agree, definately rigged against you. Stay away from Bodog as well as it's rigged in my favor.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:31 PM   #8360
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
An audit is only legit if you personally know the CEO of the company being audited and the auditors?

What is wrong with you? I'm not going to respond to you anymore. It is useless.
Please don't respond. A reference is usually done by somebody that personally knows somebody or something....


Reference:

the giving of the name of another person who can offer information or recommendation
the person so indicated
a written statement of character, qualification, or ability, as of someone seeking a position; testimonial
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:46 PM   #8361
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Please don't respond. A reference is usually done by somebody that personally knows somebody or something....


Reference:

the giving of the name of another person who can offer information or recommendation
the person so indicated
a written statement of character, qualification, or ability, as of someone seeking a position; testimonial
wat
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:03 PM   #8362
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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wat
I lol'd.
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:08 PM   #8363
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by StripSqueeze View Post
That is rather specious logic. I could not imagine a reputable auditing company stealing someones proprietary software. And lets get real. This is software for a poker site, not software to launch nuclear missiles.

True that this would still not satisfy some. However, it would satisfy many. So what's the harm?

As I wrote originally it would be a great marketing brag for a site to be able to say the are independently audited on a regular and/or random basis.

As a player how could you be against this?
They are audited, but it does not really matter.

Most players do not even worry about that or think of that being a reason to play on a site or not.

Those that do and obsess about it will never be happy no matter who or how it is audited anyway. They will just say they are in on it or that they cant find the superduperbots or whatever.

Marketing based on the amount of games, quality of software and quality of customer service and security are probably going to be more significant than any based on who the auditors are.
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Old 09-09-2009, 06:30 PM   #8364
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by StripSqueeze View Post
That is rather specious logic. I could not imagine a reputable auditing company stealing someones proprietary software. And lets get real. This is software for a poker site, not software to launch nuclear missiles.

True that this would still not satisfy some. However, it would satisfy many. So what's the harm?

As I wrote originally it would be a great marketing brag for a site to be able to say the are independently audited on a regular and/or random basis.

As a player how could you be against this?
You did spell specious correctly, but everything else is foolishness.
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:05 PM   #8365
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I believe there are zero flaws.

Online poker is perfect.

Nothing to see here.....
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:01 PM   #8366
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
They are audited, but it does not really matter.

Most players do not even worry about that or think of that being a reason to play on a site or not.

Those that do and obsess about it will never be happy no matter who or how it is audited anyway. They will just say they are in on it or that they cant find the superduperbots or whatever.

Marketing based on the amount of games, quality of software and quality of customer service and security are probably going to be more significant than any based on who the auditors are.
OK. Who are the auditors? Where can I read the latest audit? (ie: within the past 6 months??
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:04 PM   #8367
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
You did spell specious correctly, but everything else is foolishness.
Thank you for confirming that my spell check works.

So, answer my question.. As a player what do you have against a regular and/or random audit?? Also, why do you find this foolish?? That is very curious indeed.
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:32 PM   #8368
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

These criteria still continue in modern psychiatric diagnosis. The most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines a delusion as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.



There is controversy over this definition, as 'despite what almost everybody else believes' implies that a person who believes something most others do not is a candidate for delusional thought. Furthermore, it is ironic that, while the above three criteria are usually attributed to Jaspers, he himself described them as only 'vague' and merely 'external'.[1] He also wrote that, since the genuine or 'internal' 'criteria for delusion proper lie in the primary experience of delusion and in the change of the personality [and not in the above three loosely descriptive criteria], we can see that a delusion may be correct in content without ceasing to be a delusion, for instance - that there is a world-war.'
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:38 PM   #8369
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

here's another interesting article that may go someway to explaining why some people are so passionate about their irrational beliefs on these issues:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html?ITO=1490
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:47 PM   #8370
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

These criteria still continue in modern psychiatric diagnosis. The most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines a delusion as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.



There is controversy over this definition, as 'despite what almost everybody else believes' implies that a person who believes something most others do not is a candidate for delusional thought. Furthermore, it is ironic that, while the above three criteria are usually attributed to Jaspers, he himself described them as only 'vague' and merely 'external'.[1] He also wrote that, since the genuine or 'internal' 'criteria for delusion proper lie in the primary experience of delusion and in the change of the personality [and not in the above three loosely descriptive criteria], we can see that a delusion may be correct in content without ceasing to be a delusion, for instance - that there is a world-war.'
Who are you even talking to, you lunatic?
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:58 PM   #8371
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Who are you even talking to, you lunatic?
It's like he's not even trying to make sense anymore.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:05 PM   #8372
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'm starting to see delusion on your parts....
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:20 PM   #8373
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by StripSqueeze View Post
Thank you for confirming that my spell check works.

So, answer my question.. As a player what do you have against a regular and/or random audit?? Also, why do you find this foolish?? That is very curious indeed.

This is another form of a trap question. Just because most players do not worry about how the sites are audited (because they have faith in them) does not mean they are "against audits."

It means that they have other concerns that are more pressing like how the sites deal with cheaters (collusion/bots/fraud), whether the site is financially sound (ie: issues with a lot of small rooms), the quality of the service and the ease to deposit and withdraw. The rewards program details. Those ARE issues that matter to most players which is why they are the ones you see more rationally discussed in normal threads.

Learning every nook and cranny about the auditing process of the RNG to ensure no superduperbots are at work is just not that high on the list for most rational people, because they do not operate under the assumption that the entire industry is a dark, ninjalike evil criminal enterprise.

Does that mean we are against audits? Umm, no. It just means it is not priority issue #1 for the vast numbers of the player base, even if it is for you for some reason.

If it is for you that is fine, then devote a huge amount of your time researching every thing you can about it. Write all the sites asking for all details, do a lot of investigative work if it makes you happy. No offense, but it always seems in this thread that the most passionate people about an issue (believing its rigged, believing it needs auditing in specific ways) are the ones who will literally do almost zero work to research and investigate those areas once they get off their soap box. Shock us and be different in this regard.

Report back with your findings. Most will find them interesting but not very important for whether they choose to play online or not.

Kind of basic reality and common sense. Ask people in McDonalds how many know how their food is inspected and see how many know or care. Does not mean they are against food inspections.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:36 PM   #8374
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Re: Monsters vs. Monsters on Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
This is another form of a trap question. Just because most players do not worry about how the sites are audited (because they have faith in them) does not mean they are "against audits."

It means that they have other concerns that are more pressing like how the sites deal with cheaters (collusion/bots/fraud), whether the site is financially sound (ie: issues with a lot of small rooms), the quality of the service and the ease to deposit and withdraw. The rewards program details. Those ARE issues that matter to most players which is why they are the ones you see more rationally discussed in normal threads.

Learning every nook and cranny about the auditing process of the RNG to ensure no superduperbots are at work is just not that high on the list for most rational people, because they do not operate under the assumption that the entire industry is a dark, ninjalike evil criminal enterprise.

Does that mean we are against audits? Umm, no. It just means it is not priority issue #1 for the vast numbers of the player base, even if it is for you for some reason.

If it is for you that is fine, then devote a huge amount of your time researching every thing you can about it. Write all the sites asking for all details, do a lot of investigative work if it makes you happy. No offense, but it always seems in this thread that the most passionate people about an issue (believing its rigged, believing it needs auditing in specific ways) are the ones who will literally do almost zero work to research and investigate those areas once they get off their soap box. Shock us and be different in this regard.

Report back with your findings. Most will find them interesting but not very important for whether they choose to play online or not.

Kind of basic reality and common sense. Ask people in McDonalds how many know how their food is inspected and see how many know or care. Does not mean they are against food inspections.

My findings so far are that there are no recent independent audits of the software for either Full Tilt or Poker Stars.

I don't believe that either site is "fixed" or "evil". I would just like to see an independent audit on a regular and /or random basis.

Why would you as a player be against this?
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:05 PM   #8375
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

A few million players audit the poker sites every day and come to the conclusion that they will go back the next day.

This idea that some regulatory agency can guarantee that an online game run by computers is totally error-free and uses a totally random deal without manipulation, is just ludicrous. The good ones like the Isle of Man seem to do a reasonable job of policing their licensees, and they respond to complaints that have some basis in fact. If you took a large hand sample to the IoM government and showed them convincingly that the game wasn't being played fairly, I'm pretty sure they would investigate. But they are not going to post armed guards who are also computer experts, at the server room to prevent any rogue activity from being possible.

Like most rationale people they know that the marketplace does the bulk of the policing, and the oversight and regulatory function is a baseline level of security that is as much reactive as it is preventative. It isn't intended to be a guarantee, and from a practical standpoint it never can be. Give up on the idea that audits can keep a site honest. They can't. Good business practices and repeat customers keep a site honest.

If you want something guaranteed, don't gamble. The chance of losing your money honestly is magnitudes greater than losing it to a rigged deal.
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