No, I'm not aware of things that aren't true.

Most (if not all) players at WPN do have several choices. And even if they didn't, an RNG scandal would still hurt their business, as players always have at least one choice - not to play online at all.

Note that I'm not arguing whether or not the risk outweighs the reward, just that the idea that there is no risk is without merit.

Bobo I'm 45 years old and have been playing live competitively since I was 21 and playing online since I was about 30. My main site before black Friday was Absolute where I ran the leader boards with Dipthrong and Bigdog. I have more flopped hands in my poker career than you could imagine. I have seen it all with enough experience to know what I am seeing. There is something absolutely not right with the run outs at WPN. I am offering to give up my hand history at WPN to be analyzed by someone who is capable of doing so. I have over 5k tournaments played at wpn. Just to be clear I have a HPT televised win, Circuit Ring win with over 450 runners Las Vegas in 2014 along with many other wins and cashes that can be viewed on CardPlayer. I am not trying to boast I am trying to let you know that I have the experience to make this call. PM me if you know anyone who is willing to take on this task.

Well there is no other place in my opinion Because of the tournament selection that WPN has built. What premise they built it on is another story.

I feel that hiding players hold cards is a possible attempt at hiding from detection as you stated above.

I don't know of anyone, but hopefully someone contacts you.

If you know what in particular you suspect, have you considered analyzing the data yourself, with assistance from those with more experience, or is it your feeling that such work may be beyond your skills?

Yeah, I can see why for some people they may not feel they have any other choice.

I assume you mean the hole cards of losing players at showdown?

Yes way beyond my skills and yes I meant hole cards which is quite embarrassing.

To explain what I am seeing is very complicated but it is basically flops, turns and rivers that appear to be inducing action that is unrealistic. That is why I stated the hole cards might be a way from hiding detection as if someone could analyze all the cards to showdown it may show this more clear. There are many patters that I have witnessed over the years that make no sense. One of the most important to this subject is when I am crushing on 1 tournament I am crushing on all and when I am getting crushed I am getting crushed on all. My point is if I had the ability to sit at 5 different tournaments simultaneously there would no doubt be absolute different results at those different tables the majority of the time. I am aware that at times the results would be the same but it would not be a pattern, Again if one online table is getting crushed they all are all the time..................

Truthfully to a certain degree this gives me an advantage in that I am able to determine when to play more or when to play less but never the less its a pattern and that's certainly not random.

Interesting thread here. I'm a glutton for punishment, so I continue to play on ACR and Ignition. I just call it entertainment. I also will play slots at the casino (IRL, not online). It's either jacked up somehow, or I just suck... who knows.

I know you guys are having a somewhat heated discussion here, but kinda rude to call out a typo.

Not even remotely close to heated, and I wasn't pointing out the typo.

Not at all - it was the "losing players at showdown" I wanted to clarify, as I remember that was an issue quite a while back they said they were going to fix.

My assumption with that back then was that it might not be a bug, but a feature. I remember there was at least one other site that did it the same way, and I believe it was intentional to prevent rec players from embarrassment over hands they had called with. It's actually not impossible that this is why they're not super-motivated to change it. Or it could be that they've got other priorities and/or are having difficulty making the change - I'm always hearing people complain about pretty much every sites' software; it seems many sites have trouble meeting players' expectations in that regard. Or it could be, as you say, part of a cover up. But intuitively, I don't think seeing those hole cards would make a big difference in statistical analysis - but I'm not a probability/stats expert so I won't swear to that.

OK, so with regard to the hole cards being shown at showdown. Wouldn't having them shown, not only increase accountability for the poker site, but also for the players? IF the issue comes down to poorer players playing awful hands, and 'sucking out' more often than would seem normal for live play, then having to show that 72 os could potentially deter a small amount of that play. Or I'm on crack.

Right, which is why I said:

As a player, you should want opponents playing awful hands.

I don't know if this actually works (encourages them to play worse hands), but if it does, it certainly could be viewed as a positive from that standpoint.

If the odds are correct in all the run outs then you certainly want them playing those hands. But if for whatever reason the rng is manipulated and the odds are not real then what the hell difference does it make what hands anyone plays. That leads me to another pattern where I know when its plus ev for me
to make bad calls with extremely marginal hands simply because other tournaments are showing that anything I play is hitting.

Of course, if the site is rigged it doesn't matter.

Meh, this guy has the same paranoid visions in other areas as well. He is taking a break from a thread about American Christianity's Response to Donald Trump where he posts things like


which shows that he believes he has special insight into areas that he typically has no information about, and he uses his paranoia and what he believes he sees as a guide.

The nice thing about his paranoia here is that he can of course find someone and pay them to analyze his HH database. When nothing of interest is found he will simply say that the analysis was flawed or that the sites magically have it work within the stats but the rig is hidden within the variance or it balances out or something.

Best advice to him is the standard do not play at a site that you are not comfortable playing at, and then shrug as he continues to play there and whine about rigs he can see with his own eyes yet not be able to prove with a database of hands.

It's always the dumbest people that have the loudest opinions.

Not even one?

Help is available:
http://www.gamblersanonymous.org


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

lol

Gee you got me!!!

see this $#%$# in this thread is a perfect example of what I was talking about when I said that it appears that things regarding online poker are being covered up in this thread. I have posted a concern and this @##$#@ turns it around on me as to make me the problem. This thread makes ppl who want to express concerns feel foolish to come onto 2 plus 2 and make a statement against an online poker site even if one had iron clad proof. This thread is well known through out the poker community for well spoken #%$# like this guy who will tear you a new $#$%$# if you dare give an opinion about online poker where you don't have proof. I fully admit that I may be wrong here but I came on with hopes that smarter people than me could help alleviate my concerns or expose them for the scum they are. Could card manipulation through the rng ever really be proven?

LMAO kid

Yea that's a real knee slapper there.

Serious question.

Have you ever given serious thought to the possibility that maybe your feelings and impressions might be mistaken and you might be wrong?

There's a saying that if one person tells you you've sprouted a tail, you can ignore them. But if 10 people tell you that you've sprouted a tail, it's time to at least find a mirror.

As for the importance of proof - that's absolutely right. If you're going to allege that an online site is rigged, you need to be prepared to prove it.

I have yet to see someone on this site claim that online poker CAN'T be rigged, that sites are 100% legit, etc. What I have seen, over and over, is people who have no real evidence get shredded for not having any evidence.

Assertions without evidence are of zero value.

Quote the whole post and it says "I admit I may be wrong". Here is another who attacks without even reading what I posted. LMAO!

Yes, I know you *said* you may be wrong. What I asked you was whether you gave SERIOUS THOUGHT (missed the last T - typo) to the possibility?

See I think you're just giving lip-service to the whole "I may be wrong" thing to sound like you're being rational when you're really responding to emotion and impression.

Nobody wants to read your posts anyways. Go back to the Trump thread.

Again I ask the question can rng manipulation be proven? The understanding of things like this are way outside of my pay grade so I come to a place like this to here from smart people to help me understand better what these sites are and are not capable of.

Yes, RNG manipulation, if it exists, can be proven.

What it requires is a large enough sample size of hands showing the full outcome of those hands to showdown.

Then one can compare the known statistical probability (which necessarily contains some margin of error) vs actual.

For instance:

If you know that AA all in pre should win HU 80% of the time with (based on range of hands checked) a margin of error or 5%, and your hand history showed that with AA, all in pre HU you won 75% of the time, the statistics would say the RNG shows no problem, but if you won 74% of the time that you may have an issue and if you won 30 % of the time there would be a serious deviation.

There are people here who are capable of running that kind of analysis. There are people who have even offered to do the analysis - and all that has to happen is the person registering the complaint has to provide their full hand history to the person offering.

To date, to my knowledge, nobody has ever taken up the offer. Typically they accuse the person offering of wanting to get all the details about the riggie's play style or some such.

I could give you the sarcasm about calling me out about the lip service but why cause your right. It will take a lot to convince me other wise but as I stated earlier I have enough time on the virtual and felt to easily recognize odd patterns on the virtual when I see them. Again I still believe that there is a small chance that what i am seeing is my imagination or maybe an affect on the brain when watching so many hands over a period of time. But I do know that when many scandals have come up in the online world rng manipulation has never to my knowledge. This makes me seriously wonder why something so easy for these guys to pull off has never been uncovered? In this world moral accountability is not the number one priority.

Monteroy does have a certain way of posting that can get on people's nerves, I'll give you that.

But he did not make you the problem. He is basically saying to you, in a much colder way than other posters, what the other posters are also saying to you.

Any systematic RNG rig can be proven. Over the years people that usually make claims about site X being rigged in Y way fail to provide their HH's for statistical analysis. Moreover, when people explain to the respective person why Y way is trivially easy to get caught ( and some of the Y ways don't make the site more money ), the respective person moves the goalposts and says that everybody is wrong and he is right and that the rig is real. This is usually why people ask them for the database, as their own personal database doesn't show that.

I used "systematic" in the above phrase because if you claim that the site just rigs a hand here and there only against certain people, then yes, that would be very difficult to prove. But this doesn't make the site much more money ( maybe a few cents more ), so this type of rig would be pointless. So, it is generally accepted that if the RNG is manipulated, it would be manipulated in a systematic way that affects all the player pool and not just player 1, 5 and 87.

Last night is was an emotional rant and now its over. I still believe the things that I stated but the reality is it just don't matter. I am not giving anyone my hand history cause at the end of the day when the emotion is all gone I just don't really $#$$#% care. Thanks for listening.