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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:47 AM   #8051
NooooBingo
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Yes, but under Donko's current theory, those hands don't matter, since it's only at the late stages of a tourney that this rigging is going on in order to "speed it up". What Donko is saying is that he runs continuously bad in the late stages of a tourney, around the time he gets knocked out.
There are only two ways to get knocked out of a tourney.

1. You get your money in good and get sucked out on.

2. You get your money in bad and lose.

Constantly losing a flip, or a 70/30 or whatever in the late stages of a tourney is not "running bad". If you are a good player, more often that not you should be getting sucked out on to get eliminated.
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:14 AM   #8052
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NooooBingo View Post
There are only two ways to get knocked out of a tourney.

1. You get your money in good and get sucked out on.

2. You get your money in bad and lose.

Constantly losing a flip, or a 70/30 or whatever in the late stages of a tourney is not "running bad". If you are a good player, more often that not you should be getting sucked out on to get eliminated.
(I hope thsee last few posts are directed at Donko, rather than me...)
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:37 AM   #8053
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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(I hope thsee last few posts are directed at Donko, rather than me...)
Mine are.
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:54 AM   #8054
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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(I hope thsee last few posts are directed at Donko, rather than me...)
Yes, they are
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:14 PM   #8055
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

We talked about the different shuffle combinations for poker sites. If there are sites that have the whole deal dealt out before the hand action begins, Is it possible by any means to have a program that can "hook" and see the cards that are going to come?
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:29 PM   #8056
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
We talked about the different shuffle combinations for poker sites. If there are sites that have the whole deal dealt out before the hand action begins, Is it possible by any means to have a program that can "hook" and see the cards that are going to come?
I'm not a programmer, nor have I taken any Statistics classes (although some poker books could probably count as one ), so I'm sure someone can give a better explanation.

But yes, that is possible. If the program knows how the deal is randomized, and can emulate the randomness. For example, if the deal is randomized based on the current time and the program is able to synchronize its clock with the shuffler's, then the program will be able to produce the same results as the shuffler.

Fortunately, most, if not all major sites use shufflers based on things that are virtually impossible to emulate, AFAIK.
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:39 PM   #8057
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I'm not a programmer, nor have I taken any Statistics classes (although some poker books could probably count as one ), so I'm sure someone can give a better explanation.

But yes, that is possible. If the program knows how the deal is randomized, and can emulate the randomness. For example, if the deal is randomized based on the current time and the program is able to synchronize its clock with the shuffler's, then the program will be able to produce the same results as the shuffler.

Fortunately, most, if not all major sites use shufflers based on things that are virtually impossible to emulate, AFAIK.
Thank you sir. I appreciate the input. I'd agree that the major sites would keep that from happening...
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:59 PM   #8058
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
We talked about the different shuffle combinations for poker sites. If there are sites that have the whole deal dealt out before the hand action begins, Is it possible by any means to have a program that can "hook" and see the cards that are going to come?
There are two ways of doing this:

1) Figuring out the shuffle, and replicating it. This happened at PlanetPoker, and is described in the FAQ of this forum. I assume that there's no legitimate online poker site that uses such a method of shuffling. Some random site like Facebook Poker or something might do this, but I have no idea. It's not difficult to overcome this risk.

2) Getting access to the cards that have been shuffled. This would be another horrendous security hole, especially given that it is so easy to avoid... the server has no need to send the cards to the various clients until the right time, so they simply don't. In other words, the PokerStars server doesn't even tell your computer what the cards of the other players are until showdown... the information doesn't even exist on your PC until that time, so there is no way to deduce this.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:10 PM   #8059
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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In other words, the PokerStars server doesn't even tell your computer what the cards of the other players are until showdown... the information doesn't even exist on your PC until that time, so there is no way to deduce this.
ANY site that did this would have to be absolutely terrible. It wouldn't just be possible to figure out the cards of the other players, it would be EASY.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:28 PM   #8060
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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1) Figuring out the shuffle, and replicating it. This happened at PlanetPoker, and is described in the FAQ of this forum. I assume that there's no legitimate online poker site that uses such a method of shuffling. Some random site like Facebook Poker or something might do this, but I have no idea. It's not difficult to overcome this risk.
It should also be pointed out that this was 10 years ago when online poker was in its infancy, and the flaw was only discovered by a professional security lab. As far as anyone knows it never made it into the wild before it was corrected, and true RNGs became the standard soon after.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:33 PM   #8061
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
ANY site that did this would have to be absolutely terrible. It wouldn't just be possible to figure out the cards of the other players, it would be EASY.
Yep. I agree totally.

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
It should also be pointed out that this was 10 years ago when online poker was in its infancy, and the flaw was only discovered by a professional security lab. As far as anyone knows it never made it into the wild before it was corrected, and true RNGs became the standard soon after.
Yep.
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Old 08-28-2009, 07:18 PM   #8062
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I don`t think it is rigged in the way other think it is, i just rather play at some rooms and hate others (fullTILT).At Stars for ex. the cards are shuffled at the begining of the hand, but at FT at every street if i`m correct. Why not use the same RNG.
Conclusion - i F***ing hate FT
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Old 08-28-2009, 07:38 PM   #8063
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Venividivici View Post
I don`t think it is rigged in the way other think it is, i just rather play at some rooms and hate others (fullTILT).At Stars for ex. the cards are shuffled at the begining of the hand, but at FT at every street if i`m correct. Why not use the same RNG.
Conclusion - i F***ing hate FT
Perhaps you can explain how the shuffle method makes a difference. Incidentally, using the same RNG wouldn't change this, you could do both methods with the same RNG. And neither site allows rabbit hunting.

.

Last edited by spadebidder; 08-28-2009 at 07:52 PM. Reason: I anticipate some advanced pattern recognition skillz coming.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:55 PM   #8064
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Venividivici View Post
I don`t think it is rigged in the way other think it is, i just rather play at some rooms and hate others (fullTILT).At Stars for ex. the cards are shuffled at the begining of the hand, but at FT at every street if i`m correct. Why not use the same RNG.
Conclusion - i F***ing hate FT
I think this effect is more psychological than anything else. There is a certain fatalistic feeling associated with a prearranged shuffle: as, for example, live. There can be a comfort in thinking that once the shuffle is done, the results (at least card wise) are predetermined.

With a continuously shuffling deck, that comfort is taken away. You simply don't know what would have happened had you acted differently. Taken a half second more to think about a hand. Taken longer to place your bet, rather than fold.

It makes no difference practically, or from an ev perspective, but I can see how it could make some people uncomfortable and admit to feeling that at times as well.
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:19 PM   #8065
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I think this effect is more psychological than anything else. There is a certain fatalistic feeling associated with a prearranged shuffle: as, for example, live. There can be a comfort in thinking that once the shuffle is done, the results (at least card wise) are predetermined.

With a continuously shuffling deck, that comfort is taken away. You simply don't know what would have happened had you acted differently. Taken a half second more to think about a hand. Taken longer to place your bet, rather than fold.

It makes no difference practically, or from an ev perspective, but I can see how it could make some people uncomfortable and admit to feeling that at times as well.

This is true, and I posted a rambling philosophical post a while back about whether we really understand randomness well enough to say with certainty that it results in exactly the same set of outcomes. We can prove mathematically that this so, but it can take some time to be at peace with it. That's just our human perception bias. My mildly sarcastic post was mainly because I was responding to a statement that had "rigged" in the first sentence and then compared shuffling methods.

@Venividivici - I do understand the discomfort when you first play with a continuous shuffle. Rest assured that it makes no difference, and since you don't get to rabbit hunt, you forget about it soon enough. Don't attribute results to it, that is coincidence.
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:40 PM   #8066
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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From the page that we discussed earlier:

Quote:
PokerStars provided BMM with the source code for its RNG and shuffle, and software that PokerStars uses to protect the security of random numbers. BMM then subjected the source code and the output of the RNG to rigorous testing, including the Marsaglia Die Hard tests.
You do realize that "source code" is basically something written and just translates what the computer reads to what a human can read. PS is in no way letting anyone outside to inspect the servers and to make sure the RNG and software you think is legit is being used in it's cash games. The servers are guarded and nobody can get to them.
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:56 PM   #8067
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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You do realize that "source code" is basically something written and just translates what the computer reads to what a human can read. PS is in no way letting anyone outside to inspect the servers and to make sure the RNG and software you think is legit is being used in it's cash games. The servers are guarded and nobody can get to them.
Why do you just make stuff up?

Fortunately, the strict legislation that regulates PokerStars has thought of this eventuality. You can read it at http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/gambling/...ionact2001.pdf under Section 16, where it gives the regulator rights to enter the PokerStars premises at any time.

Last edited by Josem; 08-28-2009 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Fixed URL
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:06 PM   #8068
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Why do you just make stuff up?

Fortunately, the strict legislation that regulates PokerStars has thought of this eventuality. You can read it at http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/gambling/...ionact2001.pdf under Section 16, where it gives the regulator rights to enter the PokerStars premises at any time.
He's just a xenophobe, ignore him. He hates, ahem, Zionists.
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:07 AM   #8069
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
You do realize that "source code" is basically something written and just translates what the computer reads to what a human can read. PS is in no way letting anyone outside to inspect the servers and to make sure the RNG and software you think is legit is being used in it's cash games. The servers are guarded and nobody can get to them.
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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Why do you just make stuff up?

Fortunately, the strict legislation that regulates PokerStars has thought of this eventuality. You can read it at http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/gambling/...ionact2001.pdf under Section 16, where it gives the regulator rights to enter the PokerStars premises at any time.
Owned.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:32 PM   #8070
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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because we've been over this thousands of times: online poker is not rigged.

we insult you and hopefully mods will ban you because

1. ignorant people are frustrating to talk to over and over about the same topic

and most importantly

2. every time some ******* like you starts an "online poker is rigged" thread on a forum as big as 2p2, online poker loses a few fish. imagine being a fish and you want to deposit on a poker site. well, you dont know which site is the best, so you go to a poker forum (i.e. 2p2) to ask people which site is the best to play on. you then see hundreds of threads like "OMFG ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED" or "im $4.76 below expectation between breakfast in lunch.. RIGGED!" what are your thoughts? i'm guessing "gee, i dont wanna deposit if im gonna get cheated out of my money. ill just go to the casino"

fish will think this because they dont know any better--they're stupid. that's why they're fish. that's why you need to stop chasing them away with garbage like this.

so stop killing online poker and wasting our time
Anyone who blindly believes that a site wouldn't ever tweak some software to make a few more million dollars a year, is stupid. I know lots of people who would do almost anything for 10,000.00 more a year, and i don't even think there is any consequence for any company that does change there software to induce action. I still play all the time
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:09 PM   #8071
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Anyone who blindly believes that a site wouldn't ever tweak some software to make a few more million dollars a year, is stupid. I know lots of people who would do almost anything for 10,000.00 more a year,
I think this is a reflection on the people you know, not a reflection on online poker operators.
Quote:
and i don't even think there is any consequence for any company that does change there software to induce action. I still play all the time
But there are consequences for the legitimate sites.

For example, I work for an online poker operator. If I played a role in fiddling the RNG, then I expect that I would go to jail.
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:14 PM   #8072
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Anyone who blindly believes that a site wouldn't ever tweak some software to make a few more million dollars a year, is stupid.
anyone who blindly believes that your mother didn't screw dozens of men before being impregnated with you to make a few more hundred dollars is stupid.
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:46 PM   #8073
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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anyone who blindly believes that your mother didn't screw dozens of men before being impregnated with you to make a few more hundred dollars is stupid.
Kinda harsh, don't ya think? Especially when he's got a point. Anyone who blindly believes anything is at best, gullible.
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:56 PM   #8074
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Kinda harsh, don't ya think? Especially when he's got a point. Anyone who blindly believes anything is at best, gullible.
then I hope he brings his own scale to the grocery store to make sure the pound of beef he's paying for isn't 9/10 lb. and maybe he should put his gasoline in a 5-gallon can before putting it in his gas tank to be certain he isn't actually paying for 4.95 gallons. perhaps it would be prudent to run DNA tests to prove he wasn't switched at birth in the hospital.

if you live your life under the impression that everyone is out to screw you out of an extra nickel every chance they get then interacting with society isn't for you. however, if you know someone is screwing you - prove it. until then, it's mental illness.
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Old 09-02-2009, 03:43 PM   #8075
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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So, you're saying that if poker sites sped up tournaments, they'd lose business?

Isn't that the opposite of your previous claim?

Sorry, I have been away from this discussion.

I think I was talking specifically about structures. If those started to shorten up and become less advantageous, I would not play at that particular site. I would look for a site that has better structures. I am assuming that a lot of players would do the same.

As it pertains to the possibility of rigging, you would not know if the tournaments were being sped up artificially unless you had proof. You could only hypothesise. No one has proven this up to this point in time. So a site would probably not lose nearly as much business outside of players deciding that what they have found in their experience being enough to keep them away.
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