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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:21 PM   #7976
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
I wonder whose gimmick account he is.
Checked his IP last night when I merged threads. It doesn't match anyone and it's residential. So unless he's sleeping on someone's sofa he's not one of our ban on sight trolls or someone's gimmick.

Chances are, he believes everything he posts
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:22 PM   #7977
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by lenasrokas View Post
by shoving every hand i have run my initial stack of 400 up to 4500, i keep binking lol. will post hands after

edit: almost 8k
They're just reeling you in...
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:30 PM   #7978
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I thought we had already established that on play money tables the sites use bots programmed to donk off their chips to you, to get you to deposit when you start feeling like the shizzat? That was like, proved and stuff.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:35 PM   #7979
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Me [Qd Kd]
p1: folds
p2: raises 200 to 400
Me: raises 4800 to 5200
p3: folds
p4: folds
p5.77290: folds
p2: calls 4785 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (15) returned to Me
*** FLOP *** [7d Qh Kh]
*** TURN *** [7d Qh Kh] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [7d Qh Kh Kc] [Qs]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
p2: shows [Jh Js] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
Me: shows [Qd Kd] (a full house, Kings full of Queens)
Me collected 10820 from pot
And another thing...

I thought you said it was rigged in favour of the "amateurs" and "pros" like you (lol) get screwed.

So you post a hand that you win?

See, now this is where we go from just laughing to laughing and pointing!
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:00 PM   #7980
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Cry Me A River View Post
Checked his IP last night when I merged threads. It doesn't match anyone and it's residential. So unless he's sleeping on someone's sofa he's not one of our ban on sight trolls or someone's gimmick.

Chances are, he believes everything he posts
Yeah, that alternative is much scarier. He think he's a businessman too, good Lord I feel bad for his employees.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:20 PM   #7981
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Fulltilt Poker is a Garbage Can!!!!!!

I never thought I would have wrote a thread about playing online poker at Fulltilt’s online poker site, but the almost unbelievable bad luck I have on this site made me write. I’m the type of poker player that believe poker is a game of skill, but playing on Fulltilt, I don’t know, but something about that site is fishy!!! I know you get hit with one and two outers, but damn every game I play, I have a losing session because of the terrible luck I have on this site!!!!!!!!!!!! Last night I was playing in a tournament when I was about to make the money when I got screwed with a rivered one outer, but I played that off only to lose in back to back to back session because of the most unbelievable bad luck!!!!! I’m not going that far to say this site is rigged, but something is fishy about this site…for some reason good players can’t win regularly on this site, but the worst of all the player are successful…come on that’s not RIGHT!!!!! Fulltilt rewards bad players and kill the good players!!!! I have a theory why this is so!!!! They reward the bad players, so the players can keep win money only to play higher and Fulltilt get the rake…while good players continue to lose and lose and keep reloading only to lose again and again!!!! I don’t consider myself a great player, but I know I’m not as bad as some of the players that are winning on this site!!!! I believe I have reloaded 5 or 6 times and still can’t get anything going, but I’m about to stop playing on this rigged racist(just look at their poker player lineup, how many people of color they have on that team) poker site!!!!!!!!

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Old 08-23-2009, 05:43 PM   #7982
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cry Me A River View Post
And another thing...

I thought you said it was rigged in favour of the "amateurs" and "pros" like you (lol) get screwed.

So you post a hand that you win?

See, now this is where we go from just laughing to laughing and pointing!
I posted that because it was an action flop in my favor. I'm not biased. I'm not pulling this "woe is me" thing that you see so often and you feel obliged to mock.

Incidentally, I've played with these theories all afternoon. I've made final three in every tourney, and placed first in one as well... So mock if you will, it's working for me.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:52 PM   #7983
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I cant resist the light....

I said
Quote:
at which point you will come to the conclusion that stars are even sneakier than you thought and that they are hiding the riggedness so that overall doesnt look rigged statistically
you said

Quote:
've been doing a lot of reading this afternoon and played a tourney. The focus was on the ability to control the outcome and still pass RNG audits (RNG audits don't audit the software that process the output of the RNG), Action Flops, positions and odds.
Oi. Wheres my credit for saving you all the time in developing your theory?

also your ability to draw statistical conclusions from single hands is awesome. teach me.

the next evolution is all odds are 50/50. you either get there or you dont.

yesterday there was a 86.423232% chance it would not rain. it rained. thus statistically the weather is rigged.

Last edited by OziBattler; 08-23-2009 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:10 PM   #7984
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

skepctical, btw believe me when i say that i can be pretty paranoid and careful about things online. if i had any belief that it was rigged i wouldnt be playing. ive been playing poker online for years and ive never seen any evidence that stars is rigged that is actually evidence. and please dont tell me i need to prove it isnt rigged. that line has already been played and thats not how it works.

ofc what i think doesnt matter to you but thats fine. each to their own. im not trying to convince you anymore so lets just agree to disagree. mkay
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:30 PM   #7985
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Okay, I just realized something:

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
I guess it's been three years that I've been playing on Poker Stars now.
So you've been playing play money for three years?

Really?

Ok, this **** ain't funny any more. That's just sad.

Nah, it's still pretty freak'n funny.

And comedy's always better with a little tragedy thrown in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
This tourney I'm just in has seen 4 action flops at the 12 player mark.
See now here's the thing. In the time since I started posting this afternoon - In the last few hours - I've played 49 tournaments. For real money, not matchsticks.

49.

We've all given and received bad beats the likes of which you can't even imagine. We've all seen a million "action flops". "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire..."

That's just the way the game works. Something you just can't seem to wrap your head around. Your anecdotal evidence is laughable in its statistical irrelevance. Your theories are lacking in anything resembling logic or coherence.

Maybe if you read and posted in some strategy threads instead of wasting your time with conspiracy theories you might learn to play the game well enough that it won't appear rigged any more.

It's up to you how you use this website. You can learn how to win actual money at this game. Or you can keep arguing nonsense.

Up to you.
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:32 PM   #7986
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Re: Fulltilt Poker is a Garbage Can!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by vicnastee View Post
I never thought I would have wrote a thread about playing online poker at Fulltilt’s
Did you steal this from this month's Penthouse Letters?
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:23 PM   #7987
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
Ok. We'll disregard the rest, their only "constructive" opinions are the usual droll "no proof" crap.
WTF, I didn't even comment on "no proof" in the post that you quoted.

I made a few points:

-You falsely claimed that PS used a software RNG - the link that you quoted to support your claim actually said the opposite to what you pretended it said.

-You falsely claimed that PS turns a blind eye to people who believe their shuffle is rigged. I encouraged you to actually test your own claim by emailing them.

-I said that although I'm not perfect, I think I contribute to this discussion in a valuable way. Even many of the other people who believe that online poker is rigged acknowledge I'm reasonable in responding to the claims.

I made a post a few pages earlier in here expressing my frustration about this "discussion" - various people come here, make unfounded claims about bizarre international conspiracy theories, have their theories comprehensively debunked, then never actually admit that they're wrong... instead, they just create another falsehood and spread it like gospel.

The problem is that many (but not all!) of the people who believe that online poker is rigged is that they have no critical thinking skills, and no self-criticism. It's as if when they are proved wrong (or something is proven contrary to their pre-existing prejudice) they just ignore it. I don't know if this is ignorant or willful blindness, but when you think about it, this sort of behaviour is the same sort of behaviour that generates this bizarre self-confidence that there is a massive international conspiracy out to defraud them.

There are fundamentally two "possible" reasons for someone to lose at poker over the long-term:

1) Their opponents are better than they are.

2) There is a massive secret international conspiracy out to defraud them.

Quote:
I've been doing a lot of reading this afternoon and played a tourney. The focus was on the ability to control the outcome and still pass RNG audits (RNG audits don't audit the software that process the output of the RNG), Action Flops, positions and odds.
WTF, no.

From the page that we discussed earlier:
Quote:
PokerStars provided BMM with the source code for its RNG and shuffle, and software that PokerStars uses to protect the security of random numbers. BMM then subjected the source code and the output of the RNG to rigorous testing, including the Marsaglia Die Hard tests.
and

Quote:
Cigital analyzed the source code, entropy sources and documentation for PokerStars' RNG implementation. In addition, a sample RNG output stream provided by PokerStars was subjected to - and passed - FIPS 140-1 testing. Using standard methods for exploiting RNGs and having full access to the source code, Cigital was unable to break the PokerStars RNG. Cigital found that the PokerStars implementation adheres to the current state-of-the-practice in generating random seeding values.
For someone who claims to have done a "lot of reading" you sure haven't done much reading.

Are you ignorant to what the website says, or are you just lying? One or the other must be true. Which one is it?
Quote:
Some very interesting reading here. I read the Cigital report on Pokerstars. I played a tourney.
You obviously didn't read the Cigital report on PS, or you wouldn't have made the claims above.

Quote:
First, Cigital didn't audit the play money tables, and it's reasonably sound and repeatedly proven that the action on play money tables vs. real money is two distinctly different things.
Where has this been "repeatedly proven"? I don't think this is true.

I think that you are just another lying liar that lies.

Quote:
I think it's safe to disgard the Cigital report for the purposes of play money discussion as I don't play real money.
No, it's not safe to disregard the Cigital report. Why the hell would a company go to the effort of making a RNG, have it audited twice, and then pay for the construction of a second one for play money tables? This just makes no sense.

Quote:
Of course Pokerstars doesn't record histories in play money tourneys.
But you can if you want. Save the hand histories to disk and do a review yourself.
Quote:
The Action Flop Theory states that pros lose more often than they should to keep the newbs in the game. It supports the theory in my OP, that most seemingly disregarded out of hand, that the action is geared to get them to the money.
WTF, no.

You don't even realise that what you are saying is self-contradictory. This is nut house stuff.

You can't simultaneously claim that there are Action Flops (to increase betting) while claiming that the purpose is to keep bad players in the game longer. "Action flops" increase betting, and increase variance... and the greater the pot size and the bigger the variance, the faster the fish go bust.

You're like someone pointing at a green wall, saying it is black, and in the next breath, you're claiming it is white. Not only are your claims wrong and false, but they're also internally self-contradictory.

You can claim to have action flops (to generate action/rake) or you can claim that there's a plot to keep fishes in the game longer. You can have one or the other - not both, because one stops the other from happening.

Quote:
Coupled with a site's ability to manipulate the draw and still pass the RNG audit... I truly believe there's validity to the concerns.
WTF, but there is not ability to manipulate the draw and pass the RNG audit. That's why RNG audits exist.

Quote:
What are your thoughts?
I think I pretty reasonably addressed every significant point you made here. I'd be interested if you could respond to each point I made.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:37 PM   #7988
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Question Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
I posted that because it was an action flop in my favor.
How can it be an "action flop" if there's no action to be taken?
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:41 PM   #7989
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I think Josem summed it up pretty well.

/thread amirite?
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:52 PM   #7990
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Re: The great "Play Money is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
I posted that because it was an action flop in my favor. I'm not biased. I'm not pulling this "woe is me" thing that you see so often and you feel obliged to mock.
Actually, I'm mocking your whole line of reasoning.

You said play money action flops are arranged to help "amateurs" at the expense of "pros" (lol). And as evidence you offered up an "action flop" that not only had no action on the flop, but also didn't benefit an "amateur", it benefited a "pro" (lol).

So the "action flop" you demonstrated meets none of the goals of your "action flop" conspiracy.

So... Your position is that there should never be any "action flops", ever? And that any "action flop" ever dealt is evidence of wrong doing?

Why else would you post that hand?

Don't you see how ridiculous your entire line of posting is?


I guess we should be glad you didn't start reading about 9/11 conspiracies...


Quote:
Incidentally, I've played with these theories all afternoon. I've made final three in every tourney, and placed first in one as well... So mock if you will, it's working for me.
OMG! You've made the money in a bunch of play money SNGs? I tell ya, the cover of CardPlayer awaits!
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:06 PM   #7991
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

This pretty much sums up my view of the last page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7CR8WkUi-4

(warning, bad language)
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:27 PM   #7992
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
The problem is that many (but not all!) of the people who believe that online poker is rigged is that they have no critical thinking skills, and no self-criticism. It's as if when they are proved wrong (or something is proven contrary to their pre-existing prejudice) they just ignore it. I don't know if this is ignorant or willful blindness, but when you think about it, this sort of behaviour is the same sort of behaviour that generates this bizarre self-confidence that there is a massive international conspiracy out to defraud them.
THIS. Everything else in the post too, but so this.
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Old 08-23-2009, 09:43 PM   #7993
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
The problem is that many (but not all!) of the people who believe that online poker is rigged is that they have no critical thinking skills, and no self-criticism. It's as if when they are proved wrong (or something is proven contrary to their pre-existing prejudice) they just ignore it. I don't know if this is ignorant or willful blindness, but when you think about it, this sort of behaviour is the same sort of behaviour that generates this bizarre self-confidence that there is a massive international conspiracy out to defraud them of play money.
FYQ!

(Fixed your quote)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
This pretty much sums up my view of the last page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7CR8WkUi-4
skepticalatbest is thinking, "So that makes me Brad Pitt, right?"
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:03 PM   #7994
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I read last few pages of this and its a perfect script for the conversations I have with people I tell I play poker online for part time income. Just last night at the bar someone I thought was a pretty intelligent person spent an agonizing amount of time telling me why online poker was rigged. He agreed with my counterarguments for a bit then just as I thought it was over he went on a tangent about getting sucked out on blah blah blah stfu already please. Now I have to go drink.
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:54 PM   #7995
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

lol @ you guys owning the riggtards I try to stay out of here , but the ownage is just classic . Keep up the good work , now if we can just get the bot idiot out .
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:12 PM   #7996
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

In other news:

tk1133
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:47 PM   #7997
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
In other news:

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Don't get too excited
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Please ban me for one day
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:33 PM   #7998
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
There are fundamentally three "possible" reasons for someone to lose at poker over the long-term:

1) Their opponents are better than they are.

2) There is a massive secret international conspiracy out to defraud them.

3) Said someone cannot beat the game(s) he plays for more than he loses from the rake.
FYP, and I think there are tons of players who probably don't realize they actually are beating their opponents for a small amount, but are at a consistent loss overall solely due to rake.
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:15 PM   #7999
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

^ 4) They don't put in enough time and effort into their game.


"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


Albert Einstein (he was pretty smart)
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:47 PM   #8000
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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^ 4) They don't put in enough time and effort into their game.
You can put in as much or as little time and effort as possible and still won't win if your opponents are better than you.
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