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Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-23-2009, 03:33 AM   #7926
skepticalatbest
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Long, long thread there.

I'm not going to debate rigged/not rigged for sure. I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion. I think there's enough there to raise question, if nothing else.

I also think that I have tons to learn about poker and quite possibly I'll be able to tap into the expertise of legends to sharpen my game. I know that it's possible to swing the game in your favor if you play right. God knows I've bought enough pots to support that. I'm not a BAD player. I'm just not a GREAT player. I'm mediocre. Average. Capable enough of holding my own.

Usually, if I'm sharp enough, play tight enough, I can battle my way to the final table. I STILL cannot disgard the notions of many, out of hand.

As stated, I'm logical and analytical. I don't believe in chance. I don't believe in flukes. I can't just sidestep the unexplained, the unusual, the against-all-odds outcomes.

What I CAN do, however, is learn a strategy that will allow me to make the most out of every opportunity, and use it to hammer through the "bad luck" to at least make it into the top five. Never anything wrong with sharpening your skills on a seemingly skewered site. If you're able to do this, in a game where the odds are more realistic, your odds of kicking butt increase exponentially.

THAT works for me.
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:38 AM   #7927
I.M. Baked
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

i didnt read the whole post but did you just make a pokerstars play money is rigged thread?
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:41 AM   #7928
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

this proof you are posting is not proof at all. typing a wall of text with nothing more than stories is not proof. your entitled to your opinion but it doesnt mean you are right. you need to be careful about slandering a pokersite if you cant prove it.

when you did the searching of the internet that lead you here did you find any proof to support your argument? (Im guessing you didnt because if you did since you would have posted it)

what is more logical
a. 2+2 is a secret society of those who have figured out how to exploit a rigged game.
b. 2+2 has winning players because they study and actually get better at poker

dont you think that if there was proof that those of us who actually have the data and statistics would have used it. you heard about the ultimatebet scandal right. do you know who detected it? do you really think your brain is more capable of detecting a rigged game that others cant? granted, im talking about real money and not funny money. the more obvious rebuttal to your theory is that play money players who go to real money suck at poker and lose playing real money because of they suck more than the people who play real money. hmmm.

btw yo do realise that if you are a 10% favourite that you actually are going to win the hand sometimes, right?

anyway im not going to try and convince you any further because if you truly believe your theory is true them in wasting my time.

goodluck to you sir

Last edited by OziBattler; 08-23-2009 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:42 AM   #7929
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M. Baked View Post
i didnt read the whole post but did you just make a pokerstars play money is rigged thread?
It was worth reading. If its not a gimmick account I weep for humanity.
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:48 AM   #7930
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Ozi:

I freely acknowledge it's not "proof". I never set out with that goal in mind. I trust I made it exceedingly clear that it was only theory, provided the basis for that theory and absolutely welcomed thoughts and criticisms.

I don't think PS "Sucks". I also pointed out that I'm a businessman. As such, I respect enterprise and the desire to make money. I suggest that the site is engineered with that goal in mind. I also suggest that there's nothing wrong with that and power to them. A business is pointless without maintaining the end goal of making money and Pokerstars is, like it or not, a business first and foremost.
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:52 AM   #7931
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

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Originally Posted by I.M. Baked View Post
i didnt read the whole post but did you just make a pokerstars play money is rigged thread?
lol
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:59 AM   #7932
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Quote:
I don't think PS "Sucks". I also pointed out that I'm a businessman. As such, I respect enterprise and the desire to make money.
lots of people who are good at life stuff suck at poker. being good at one doesnt mean being good at the other.
Quote:
I suggest that the site is engineered with that goal in mind. I also suggest that there's nothing wrong with that and power to them
if this were true there IS something very wrong with it. honestly, no offence but i probably wouldnt want to do business with you.

all the best. goodluck in your endevours. im not going to try and convince you any further but if you can provide evidence we at 2+2 welcome it...but without evidence these threads dont end well. sorry.

ozi
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:08 AM   #7933
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

In before merge...

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Old 08-23-2009, 04:13 AM   #7934
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

easily my favorite thread of the day.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:22 AM   #7935
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
As such, I respect enterprise and the desire to make money. I suggest that the site is engineered with that goal in mind.
You also know you're not playing against the "house" right? Do you know how they make money? I'm pretty sure the site is engineered with that goal in mind and that would be the best reason to make sure the games are fair.

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/rake/

They don't make money when you lose, they make money when you play.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:25 AM   #7936
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

First class thread.

Would read again.

Was excellent value at £9.99 but at the current price is an absolute steal.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:26 AM   #7937
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
Your thoughts, comments, etc. are most welcomed.
Here's the bottom line:

1 - Your ideas are not new. We've heard them several hundred times before. That's why they're addressed in various FAQs written long ago. You are not a crusader or freedom fighter. You are not bringing enlightenment to a bunch of clueless scam victims. We know your ideas and arguments better than you do.
2 - Your ideas are dumb.
3 - You have no evidence. When there IS actual evidence, as in the case of Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet this forum tears into sites like a little kid on Christmas morning.
4 - Until you do have evidence, you're just going to get a bunch of people ridiculing and flaming you. Which is why your thread got merged into this containment thread. Try again when you have something of substance to post.
5 - Since evidence is unimportant to most people who post as you do, I'd like to tell you that I am a very powerful psychic. And for a very low price I will read your future for you and tell you how to ensure yourself a long life of wealth and prosperity. I or one of my representatives is available 24 hours a day from our 1-900 telephone line.

Last edited by Cry Me A River; 08-23-2009 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:32 AM   #7938
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M. Baked View Post
i didnt read the whole post but did you just make a pokerstars play money is rigged thread?
I didn't even notice that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
If it's only play chips
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

POTY!

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Old 08-23-2009, 04:52 AM   #7939
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvdoinit View Post
The pattern is for suck outs against the better hand. I could make a fortune if I could get Vegas to take my action that the big stack will win against the short stack. Now that way I could make a fortune cause its as predictable as the sun coming up each morning.
I understand that you're saying that the big stack win more than their fair share. I'm willing to take your action. No need for you to go to Vegas to lose your money.

I don't have many play chips though, so I don't know how we would make this bet.

If you want to make it for real money, let's talk about how to set this up. I assume that it is OK for you to post in this thread so we can set this up.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:04 AM   #7940
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
For a while as I was learning the game I used an odds calculator. PS staff had assured me that the only reason I was doing horribly was because I needed to learn what to hold, what to fold. That's fair enough, there was absolutely an element of truth to that.

What the odds calculator did for me was teach me how to play a tight game of poker. That's where it ended. After thousands of hands it became increasingly obvious that an odds calculator was of little use on the site.

[snip]

I went all in with a J8o. An absurd hand with preflop odds of 10% or less. I fully expected to lose.
Against one opponent:
Hold'em Simulation
25,170,868,800 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
j8o 51.49% 12,513,359,484 894,323,784
** 48.51% 11,763,185,532 894,323,784

Against two opponents:
Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
J8o 34.16% 195,730 20,038
** 32.91% 188,533 19,512
** 32.93% 188,679 19,431

Might wanna get back to working on using odds calculators imo.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:14 AM   #7941
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

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Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
Do stupid people know they're stupid?
No.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:35 AM   #7942
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

[x] CMAR. He does bad cop better than me.
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:23 AM   #7943
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

The secrets of RNG design
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:26 AM   #7944
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by breakevenpro View Post
looks good, but it relates to software RNGs, rather than hardware RNGs (which all the big/credible operators use)
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:09 AM   #7945
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
I understand that you're saying that the big stack win more than their fair share. I'm willing to take your action. No need for you to go to Vegas to lose your money.

I don't have many play chips though, so I don't know how we would make this bet.

If you want to make it for real money, let's talk about how to set this up. I assume that it is OK for you to post in this thread so we can set this up.
Can I also get in on this???
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:10 AM   #7946
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
looks good, but it relates to software RNGs, rather than hardware RNGs (which all the big/credible operators use)
I thought the PS opponents were the only ones making assumptions? I should go back through my emails and see if I can find the ones from PS that seemed to suggest otherwise.

Also, for a site that seems to pretend to be non-biased, they seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that a huge number of actually objective players seem to support outcomes that coincide with the information in that link.

It also explains why sites like PKR doesn't seem to have the same kind of action on the table.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:12 AM   #7947
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Re: Poker Stars thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cry Me A River View Post
In before merge...


Is CMAR changing rigtards avatars to this image? I thought the monty python skit showing up in a dozen threads got old really fast, but this one has great potential!

LOFL!
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:20 AM   #7948
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Rigged IMO. Lots of shills here IMO.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:20 AM   #7949
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
looks good, but it relates to software RNGs, rather than hardware RNGs (which all the big/credible operators use)
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng

Quote:
PokerStars provided BMM with the source code for its RNG and shuffle, and software that PokerStars uses to protect the security of random numbers.
Source code is software. Programming. Supporting the posters concern and leaving you with your foot stuck in your mouth and blowing a huge hole in the "nay sayers" arguments (if that's what you want to call them).

I officially give up on the ability of this forum to have an informed, objective discussion. What a discussion like that looks like isn't "You have no proof, I have no proof, so you're an idiot". A discussion like that looks like "interesting, but here are some facts to the contrary" and when KNOWN facts dispute your comments, then clearly any case for objectivity or otherwise is lost.

Thanks anyways.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:29 AM   #7950
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticalatbest View Post
I officially give up on the ability of this forum to have an informed, objective discussion. What a discussion like that looks like isn't "You have no proof, I have no proof, so you're an idiot". A discussion like that looks like "interesting, but here are some facts to the contrary" and when KNOWN facts dispute your comments, then clearly any case for objectivity or otherwise is lost.

Thanks anyways.
You're obviously new, and you are not yet certain of where your arguments fit into this debate. Read this thread from the beginning, get caught up in the informed, objective discussion that has preceded your post, and then see what you can do to bring 'interesting" new facts to this discussion. If you can bring something new, we'd love to discuss it with you! If all you're going to do is tell us about your vague assumptions, that you've come to without ANY real analysis at all, then expect more of the type of reaction you've seen here.
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