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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-16-2009, 09:33 AM   #7801
spadebidder
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Did you research all this b/c you wanted to know what would happen if you got caught using illegal programs?
This is becoming annoying and I now have you on ignore, so don't bother anymore. This will be my last comment on this subject. As I've said before, I've never posted on nor even read any of the forums on the bot site you keep referring to, and I do not have access to them. I've never used or tried to create any bot software. I play online poker casually for entertainment, and not even that much. I'm mostly a live player. But I am interested in poker research and I have used the software and database available from pokerftp.com, and have posted about it here many times.

Your accusations apparently come from seeing my name registered there. That is because there is one forum there that is used for the hand database research and you have to download the software from links Indiana posts there (he runs the research site pokerftp.com and the bot site, but has only one common forum server). I've told you this before. Here is some of my correspondence with the site administrator (with apologies to Indiana):

Quote:
From: spadebidder
To: 'Indiana'
Subject: RE: new files ready to run
Date: Jul 16, 2009 10:26 PM

Hello,

Please respond to my earlier questions below. I understand that you are busy. But you provided the code base and sample database for people to develop with, and the promise that you would run programs against the full database. You set up a web site for people to do this. I've spent many hours working on several programs to do analysis, and I gave you the first one almost a month ago. I've stopped working on the project until I know what is going to happen, and this is after I've put a couple hundred hours into it already.

This can all be resolved if you could allow me to obtain the full database. Or, please find a way to turn around requests in a timely way. I do appreciate the effort you have put into this so far, but I don't want mine to be wasted.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks
See this thread for background on the HH database:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...h-beta-452536/



Quote:
From: Indiana
To: 'spadebidder'
Subject: RE: new files ready to run
Date: Jul 17, 2009 2:08 PM

Please create a user on our forums and I will let you in our Hand History research forum. You will get the full version of the software (so you'll be able to import and export hands yourself). I don't have the hands uploaded, but you'll have the software and some time to play around.

I am traveling a lot, including in the next few weeks. Sorry for that.

Indy
Note here that I have no access to the bot forums, only to the one mentioned for downloading code.

Quote:
From: spadebidder
To: Indiana
Subject: RE: new files ready to run
Date: Aug 1, 2009 6:57 PM

PS - it has come to my attention that people can somehow see that I am now listed as a member on your forum, and they don't view that favorably. I use the same screen name everywhere, so can it be hidden on the site to avoid misunderstandings?

Thank you.

-----Original Message-----
>From: spadebidder
>Sent: Aug 1, 2009 8:00 AM
>To: indiana
>Subject: RE: new files ready to run
>
>Hi,
>
>Since you are still busy, please let me know when you are available and I will send you my latest code.
>
>Thanks
Quote:
From: Indiana
To: 'spadebidder'
Subject: RE: new files ready to run
Date: Aug 4, 2009 11:18 AM

You shouldn’t be worried about that. Many researchers are members of my forums, and the forum is both for actual pokerai research, hhex, and pokerbotting for real money is in special subforums.

One of the most credible researchers (MBJ - Michael Bradley johanson) e.g. has posted regulary. Others e.g. (deleted) who is 2+2 mod is also member of my forums and has posted on the past on particular topic,s and many others.
Note that the "special subforums" mentioned are not even accessible to me.

So please stop your accusations. If it comes to my attention again (even with you on ignore) I will have to report your abuse to the moderators here. I have given a complete response to your accusations, and that should be the end of it. I do not take it lightly when my integrity and reputation is questioned.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 08-16-2009 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:07 PM   #7802
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
This is becoming annoying and I now have you on ignore, so don't bother anymore. This will be my last comment on this subject. As I've said before, I've never posted on nor even read any of the forums on the bot site you keep referring to, and I do not have access to them. I've never used or tried to create any bot software. I play online poker casually for entertainment, and not even that much. I'm mostly a live player. But I am interested in poker research and I have used the software and database available from pokerftp.com, and have posted about it here many times.

Your accusations apparently come from seeing my name registered there. That is because there is one forum there that is used for the hand database research and you have to download the software from links Indiana posts there (he runs the research site pokerftp.com and the bot site, but has only one common forum server). I've told you this before. Here is some of my correspondence with the site administrator (with apologies to Indiana):



See this thread for background on the HH database:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...h-beta-452536/





Note here that I have no access to the bot forums, only to the one mentioned for downloading code.





Note that the "special subforums" mentioned are not even accessible to me.

So please stop your accusations. If it comes to my attention again (even with you on ignore) I will have to report your abuse to the moderators here. I have given a complete response to your accusations, and that should be the end of it. I do not take it lightly when my integrity and reputation is questioned.
Shut up you jabroni. Your need a tissue? Sounds like your a bit emotional. Ignore me if you don't like what I have to say. Gonna report me? LoL. Anyways, it is what it is, your affiliated w/ illegal programs and sites. Doesn't matter what the purpose was you stained your hands.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:29 PM   #7803
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Shut up you jabroni. Your need a tissue? Sounds like your a bit emotional. Ignore me if you don't like what I have to say. Gonna report me? LoL. Anyways, it is what it is, your affiliated w/ illegal programs and sites. Doesn't matter what the purpose was you stained your hands.
Well, as much of a jabroni as tk is himself, I guess his point is somewhat taken. Indiana is a well known botter who has promoted botting not just as an intellectual pursuit but is active in doing it himself (or so I have been led to believe). He also has more legitimate pursuits. It's an interesting ethical quandary: do you deal with a "bad guy" in his legitimate pursuits, and ignore the illegitimate ones? or do you refuse to deal with him at all because of the nefarious pursuits?

Last edited by Arouet; 08-16-2009 at 12:31 PM. Reason: p.s: had to look up jabroni in the urban dictionary. Seems The Rock likes to use it a lot!
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:48 PM   #7804
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Ask around, you can see the proof yourself...I can't provide the link...
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:00 PM   #7805
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Well it's pretty well broadcasted that Poker Sites themselves don't rig the deck. However when I go to a poker site that offers help on illegal poker programs and there's a forum where people are talking about how they can't get the "hook" on FTP to "snoop hole cards" and "hook" the "RNG" since the newest update. (meaning they were capable before FTP's changes) I think this topic belongs right here in this thread.
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:05 PM   #7806
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Of all the ways that online poker can possibly be rigged, someone who is not an insider "snooping hole cards" is possibly the least likely.
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:07 PM   #7807
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Well it's pretty well broadcasted that Poker Sites themselves don't rig the deck. However when I go to a poker site that offers help on illegal poker programs and there's a forum where people are talking about how they can't get the "hook" on FTP to "snoop hole cards" and "hook" the "RNG" since the newest update. (meaning they were capable before FTP's changes) I think this topic belongs right here in this thread.
Post a full quote, or PM me (or someone else reputable) a link where it discusses that.

And the word "hook" is often used to refer to keyboard/mouse input hooks in the programming world.
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:23 PM   #7808
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Well it's pretty well broadcasted that Poker Sites themselves don't rig the deck. However when I go to a poker site that offers help on illegal poker programs and there's a forum where people are talking about how they can't get the "hook" on FTP to "snoop hole cards" and "hook" the "RNG" since the newest update. (meaning they were capable before FTP's changes) I think this topic belongs right here in this thread.

A few thoughts:

1. Post a link or GTFO

2. I think you're saying that you don't think the RNG's are rigged, so why still so hostile to those that agree with you?

3. This still wouldn't have anything to do with rigging the RNG

4. I think you're probably misunderstanding what you are reading. These bots have to be able to tell what your own cards are. I don't believe any of this has to do with hacking into the RNG, seeing other people's hole cards, etc.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:43 AM   #7809
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

How can people still believe in the legitimacy of these sites.
I deposited a few days ago after a month long break and have never run so hot in my life.
That is until the inevitable doomswitch where you lose multiple buyins in the course of minutes.
I think sites definitely help weaker players and if you stack another player, watch out, because next time you are in a hand with them, they will have a slightly better hand than yours.
It just seems so improbable that i can play for days with no downswings, then boom, bad beats in multiples at every table.
I was in a Hi-Low tourney last night and I open raised the pot with aces, committing half my stack.
Some ultra-donk ROI -40% player reraised me with 5599 and hit his flush sending me packing.
Then this same donk goes on to win the tourney hitting miracle after miracle.
It's very hard to believe it's legit with the amount of bogusness I see on a daily basis.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:46 AM   #7810
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

People who complain about bad beats in omaha should be banned.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:48 AM   #7811
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
How can people still believe in the legitimacy of these sites.
I deposited a few days ago after a month long break and have never run so hot in my life.
That is until the inevitable doomswitch where you lose multiple buyins in the course of minutes.
I think sites definitely help weaker players and if you stack another player, watch out, because next time you are in a hand with them, they will have a slightly better hand than yours.
It just seems so improbable that i can play for days with no downswings, then boom, bad beats in multiples at every table.
I was in a Hi-Low tourney last night and I open raised the pot with aces, committing half my stack.
Some ultra-donk ROI -40% player reraised me with 5599 and hit his flush sending me packing.
Then this same donk goes on to win the tourney hitting miracle after miracle.
It's very hard to believe it's legit with the amount of bogusness I see on a daily basis.
yes, you win a lot sometimes and you lose a lot sometimes, it's called variance and there's math to explain it and it's supposed to happen

you also very likely ignore all of the times you win 60/40s and coinflips during those "off" days and then go right back to flipping out about how bad you're running as soon as you lose another

the reason why people don't think they're rigged is because they actually know how to play poker and understand the variance involved. by the way you're complaining i highly doubt you're a winning player
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:53 AM   #7812
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
People who complain about bad beats preflop in omaha should be banned.
FYP.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:19 AM   #7813
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I actually think Josem's post is more accurate.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:51 AM   #7814
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I'm pretty sure extreme domination happens less often in omaha than it does in hold'em. So 4-/3-/2-/1-outers happen less often, and are thus more devastating when they do happen.
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:12 AM   #7815
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
the lying liars just write dribble over their keyboard.
Those "lying liars" are worst type of liars IMHO and they probably "dribble" because of their age.
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:44 AM   #7816
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
I was in a Hi-Low tourney last night and I open raised the pot with aces, committing half my stack.
LOL. Any reason you left out suits or your other two cards? Or hell, even stack sizes and blinds? I hear those are important when judging tournament hands.

Actually, we can guess what your stack was based on you saying you open-potted half your stack. You had ~7 BBs, so your M would be what, around 4?
Quote:
Some ultra-donk ROI -40% player reraised me with 5599 and hit his flush sending me packing.
And again you left out suits.

Seems like a pretty standard raise against a short stack who's probably pushing A2xx.
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:57 AM   #7817
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

5599 is a 42% dog to A2XX.
Honestly do you shills even play poker?
Reraising a player who has clearly committed their stack with 5599 is anything but standard.
Funny how you fools spew nonsense to try to discredit people, when you really just make yourself look like a clown.
I left out suits because they really don't ****ing matter save for a percentage point.

It was AAQ6 vs 5599 both single suited if it makes a difference to you
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:28 AM   #7818
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
5599 is a 42% dog to A2XX.
It goes up to 44% if it's DS, but you said it wasn't, so that doesn't matter much I guess.
Quote:
Reraising a player who has clearly committed their stack with 5599 is anything but standard.
It is when their stack is ~7 big blinds.
Quote:
It was AAQ6 vs 5599 both single suited if it makes a difference to you
It's just funny that instead of copying a HH you post a super vague version of it, leaving out details that might make your beat seem not as awful as you want it to come off.

Terribly sorry you lost a 70/30 in Omaha, though.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:51 AM   #7819
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
5599 is a 42% dog to A2XX.
Honestly do you shills even play poker?
Reraising a player who has clearly committed their stack with 5599 is anything but standard.
Funny how you fools spew nonsense to try to discredit people, when you really just make yourself look like a clown.
I left out suits because they really don't ****ing matter save for a percentage point.

It was AAQ6 vs 5599 both single suited if it makes a difference to you
How do you think that guy got his -40% ROI genius. If it was rigged he'd probably be a winning player, amirite?
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:09 AM   #7820
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

If you tourney players can't handle a bad beat late in the tournament, for ****s sake go play cash! How many hands did you play BEFORE that bad beat that knocked you out? How many times did you get it in behind and then sucked out? How many flips did you win/lose? I can't stand all these "I can't tell you how many times...." posts. Why can't you tell us? Most sites send you the HH right after the hand!!!!

Poker takes a certain mindset. No-one "deserves" to win. You win in poker by playing the odds. You don't care if you win a hand or not, as long as you played it well, because over time you will make up for the bad beats, with interest.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:16 AM   #7821
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkSupreme View Post
Good thread. Anybody got any songs about rigtard donkeys?
Rockwell - Somebody's Watching Me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD21JDMp86c

captures the paranoid aspect.


For the whiny world is against me element any old country song where a guy moans about his girl leaving him and his dog dying should suffice.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:19 PM   #7822
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Bottom line is this:

Online Poker IS rigged. It's rigged to deal the cards randomly.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:31 PM   #7823
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Rockwell - Somebody's Watching Me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD21JDMp86c

captures the paranoid aspect.


For the whiny world is against me element any old country song where a guy moans about his girl leaving him and his dog dying should suffice.
And if you play that same country record backwards, the dog comes back, the girl comes back, the house is no longer in foreclosure and your drinking and gambling problem is not nearly as bad...
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:24 AM   #7824
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTruthSpeaks View Post
Please change poll question to:

Is pokerstars rigged?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
[ ] Probably not
[x] I dont know
It's not fair to lump the other sites in with them
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
FYP
FYFP

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Doesn't matter what the purpose was you stained your hands.
Did you pay back the long term loan you took from stars yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Rockwell - Somebody's Watching Me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD21JDMp86c

captures the paranoid aspect.


For the whiny world is against me element any old country song where a guy moans about his girl leaving him and his dog dying should suffice.
Good pick.

Think i would go with BEASTIE BOYS - SABOTAGE
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:57 AM   #7825
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I voted "No", but I really don't think it's too far fetched to conclude online poker CAN posssibly be rigged. Everyone seems so definitve to say that online poker is NOT rigged, but this is my whole philosophy on the matter: I DON'T THINK online poker is rigged, however I don't think it's too out of the question to speculate online poker rooms and their software, are able to read ppl's winrates and make adjustments to have more players marginal winners or break even. How is it too far fetched to think that software can't read ppl's winrates and then provide enough stability to keep them as DECENT winners, and letting the fish win too attract more players.

The whole point of a company is too make as much money as possible. Pokerrooms do this by having as many players on their sites as possible. If fish never won a pot, they would never come back to their site. I really dont think it's too out of line to say that poker software is able track ppl's winrates and adjust accordingly. I have looked up hundreds and hundreds of players who I found too be extremely talented players, too find out they have a measley win rate of .5/100 or something ridiculous like that. I think too myself ,"How on earth can that be possible". As a matter of fact, I think it's rare to find a player with a 3bb/100 winrate at a limit like 1/2, which is ridiculous.

In no way am I making excuses, especially because lately I have been going through a downswing and have breakeven for a month or so, but ppl really should keep in mind that these poker rooms are legit companies, with their goal to make as much profit as possible. They dont care about the players, they care about generating revenue. If someone has enough sound evidence to prove that there is no way my theory can be proven right, I would like to hear a response. Until you know 100% how poker software operates I don't think it's 100% legitamate to say it is truly randomly generated.
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