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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.01%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:56 PM   #751
Weevil99
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Weevil99
No. The probability that you will lose 9 consecutive times when you are a 76% favorite is 0.000264%.

You'll see it happen once or twice every million hands or so.

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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Heres my proof. Rigged.
Not proof. Just evidence. And really, it's only evidence if it actually happened. I think most people reading this thread will think it far more likely that you're having a case of selective memory.

Besides, it is usually pretty difficult to use statistics to "prove" anything. Josem came pretty damn close in the potripper case, but those numbers were so far out of the norm that no one could deny what was happening. (Some people did, anyway, but that's irrelevant.) Your numbers aren't anything like that.

A bad streak, even an extremely rare bad streak, doesn't prove anything. It might give you some support for your argument, but it's far from proof. It would take a lot of hands, ideally from a lot of different people, to build a credible case that a site is rigged in any way. How many hands would it take? That depends entirely on what it is you're claiming they do and how blatant or subtle they are in doing it. Maybe only 10 thousand, maybe 10 million. It depends on what you're claiming.

Have fun.
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:12 AM   #752
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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I wish online poker was legit but I know after playing on and off for the last 5/6 years that it is[n't]
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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
The software is pre programmed to inflict the bad beats and that is only known to a small group of people. Certainly not the average employee of the site. Cant have whistleblowers.
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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Yes could you give me more examples to refresh my memory.
Well, thank you for saving me the effort of searching.

Quote:
Yeah it says Rigged. So what.
SO... you've asserted something you now claim is merely oppinion. You do know that that's dishonest, right? You should only assert things you know to be true, and ideally be able to back them up with references.

Quote:
If it said 100% absolute certainty no doubt rigged I could see your point Aaron T.
That's an absurd defense. Don't assert things you don't know are true. It's so unethical.

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Where s your friend qpw?
Ummm... you would know at least as well as I.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:15 AM   #753
Boo Boo
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Going back to Live Casino's being rigged vs Online Sites being rigged.

How easy would it be to prove an online site was rigged?
With enough HH's you could do it.
How easy would it be to prove a live casino was rigged?
Virtually impossible

How much business would one lose if it was known that the poker games were rigged.
A **** load.

In conclusion
A online site has way much more to lose, if it was found to be rigged;
It would be relatively easy to prove an online site was rigged.

I would say it would be -EV for an online site to rig the deal. Especially the big ones that are making huge amounts of $$.
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:38 AM   #754
Weevil99
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Heres my proof. Rigged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo Boo View Post
Going back to Live Casino's being rigged vs Online Sites being rigged.

How easy would it be to prove an online site was rigged?
With enough HH's you could do it.
How easy would it be to prove a live casino was rigged?
Virtually impossible

How much business would one lose if it was known that the poker games were rigged.
A **** load.

In conclusion
A online site has way much more to lose, if it was found to be rigged;
It would be relatively easy to prove an online site was rigged.

I would say it would be -EV for an online site to rig the deal. Especially the big ones that are making huge amounts of $$.
People keep saying that, and it keeps not being true. Depending on how a site was cheating, it could be virtually impossible to prove they were doing it. It could easily require a massive, concerted effort from a large number of people with a gigantic number of HHs.

If they never deal pocket Aces to people from Canada, it would be pretty easy to demonstrate that. If they only swap out a Canadian's Aces once every thousand times he gets them, it would be a lot harder to prove. In fact, you'd probably never even notice, and the site could happily indulge its bigotry toward Canadians undetected.
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:41 AM   #755
Bobo Fett
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Weevil99 View Post
If they never deal pocket Aces to people from Canada, it would be pretty easy to demonstrate that. If they only swap out a Canadian's Aces once every thousand times he gets them, it would be a lot harder to prove. In fact, you'd probably never even notice, and the site could happily indulge its bigotry toward Canadians undetected.
Goddamnit, I knew something was going on!
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Old 02-04-2009, 08:14 AM   #756
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Man, I've only been dealt Aces 25 times in my last 10K hands. I knew it was rigged! And I'm not even Canadian!
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Old 02-04-2009, 08:14 AM   #757
Boo Boo
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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People keep saying that, and it keeps not being true. Depending on how a site was cheating, it could be virtually impossible to prove they were doing it. It could easily require a massive, concerted effort from a large number of people with a gigantic number of HHs.

If they never deal pocket Aces to people from Canada, it would be pretty easy to demonstrate that. If they only swap out a Canadian's Aces once every thousand times he gets them, it would be a lot harder to prove. In fact, you'd probably never even notice, and the site could happily indulge its bigotry toward Canadians undetected.
Good point, but surely to make it worthwhile they would have to do something to make it noticeable. What's the point of rigging the deal every 100th hand for an extra $1 in rake?
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Old 02-04-2009, 08:24 AM   #758
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

If the discussion is now one of "is it possible that something undetectable is happening" then that's even more nutty than normal "rigtard" threads.

If something undetectable is happening, then it's obviously undetectable, and therefore, you can't do anything about it, so it doesn't matter if it's happening (since you can't notice it happening anyway).
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Old 02-04-2009, 08:55 AM   #759
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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In fact, you'd probably never even notice, and the site could happily indulge its bigotry toward Canadians undetected.
If anyone rigs the sites against Canadians they'll have me to answer to.
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:11 AM   #760
Boo Boo
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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If the discussion is now one of "is it possible that something undetectable is happening" then that's even more nutty than normal "rigtard" threads.

If something undetectable is happening, then it's obviously undetectable, and therefore, you can't do anything about it, so it doesn't matter if it's happening (since you can't notice it happening anyway).
True, but the counter argument to "where is the proof" is always, "the pokersite do it so you can't detect it."

My argument to that is, well if they don't do it often enough to be able to detect it, why would they bother doing it at all.

I mean theoretically I could cut my fingers off. But why would I want to?
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:11 AM   #761
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Can you please stop posting here or close it, i always get those silly reminder emails for this crap...THIS IS ANNOYING
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:13 AM   #762
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Can you please stop posting here or close it, i always get those silly reminder emails for this crap...THIS IS ANNOYING
Change your email settings, ldo. LOL at getting an email for any/all thread replies.
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:13 AM   #763
Boo Boo
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Can you please stop posting here or close it, i always get those silly reminder emails for this crap...THIS IS ANNOYING
You talking to me?
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:19 AM   #764
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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You talking to me?
I talk to everyone...here, LOL
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:29 AM   #765
Boo Boo
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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I talk to everyone...here, LOL
Sorry I'll stop posting in this thread
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:43 AM   #766
SooperFish24
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Rigged.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:00 AM   #767
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Weevil99 View Post
People keep saying that, and it keeps not being true. Depending on how a site was cheating, it could be virtually impossible to prove they were doing it. It could easily require a massive, concerted effort from a large number of people with a gigantic number of HHs.

If they never deal pocket Aces to people from Canada, it would be pretty easy to demonstrate that. If they only swap out a Canadian's Aces once every thousand times he gets them, it would be a lot harder to prove. In fact, you'd probably never even notice, and the site could happily indulge its bigotry toward Canadians undetected.
Theoretically true, though any rigging would still bear the risk of being caught, either by players or more likely by one involved in the rigging spilling the beans.

Still, if they did choose to rig it, obviously they would do it in a way that would very likely go undetected. One of the major amusing flaws of most rigtards beliefs is that what they "see" and "believe" to be proof of rigging are the extreme and most obvious and blatant hands which would of course also be the easiest ones to detect if what they claimed was indeed true.

I have faith that if the the sites would cheat, they would do so in a far better and smarter way then the average rigtard is capable of considering, and as they do so they would laugh at all the silly claims of simplistic bad beats, action flops, and flush draws hitting (which of course would not be how they are rigging it).
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:11 AM   #768
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

I think we all owe Sooper an apology. I have captured an image that PROVES that the sites are stealing from us. This instance occurred at Pokerstars, but if we investigate I'd bet we find this type of thing to be pretty widespread. I think I never noticed this before because they only steal from us on hands that see the flop.

Anyway, here's the proof:



Refute that, you online poker room SHILLS!!!
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:38 AM   #769
SooperFish24
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by runout_mick View Post
I think we all owe Sooper an apology. I have captured an image that PROVES that the sites are stealing from us. This instance occurred at Pokerstars, but if we investigate I'd bet we find this type of thing to be pretty widespread. I think I never noticed this before because they only steal from us on hands that see the flop.

Anyway, here's the proof:



Refute that, you online poker room SHILLS!!!

I just dialled 911, yeah baby!
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:51 PM   #770
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Let me say this to start with. I have NO proof that ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED. I don't believe every site that is available to play poker on is CHEATING. At the same time, I don't have proof that it's not rigged. Things do appear odd sometimes I will admit that makes me speculate things could be rigged. At the same time, things happen that make me speculate that it is realistic and my hands hold up like they should. I admit that I have made posts supporting that online poker is rigged, with out any plausible evidence. I could not go to court and win a case that proves online poker is rigged. However I do have speculation. The difference here is, I'm not trying to start a new site. I will not profit off speculation. I like any other player, want to be comforted in knowing that Op is 100% legit. People may come on here after taking a bad beat and take it out on 2+2 saying it's rigged. But beats happen live and you can't blame the live house game b/c you KNOW it wasn't rigged it was bad luck. But some people really want to know/be comforted. After billions in dollars in revenue we, as customers, deserve to know.
This whole thing could be a misunderstanding. Maybe there are players that know things we, and security doesn't. Maybe the players are the riggers. Maybe the software developers developed glitches and manipulates the security w/ out detection. Therefore we THINK the site is rigged. Well either way its bad press. My point is this: Why when somebody questions the integrity of the game...get verbally bashed and banned? Sometimes insulted by the moderators themselves. I personally thought this site was to express our views and opinions about online poker? Anybody that questions online poker gets banned and restricted what we see. Why are they insulted and banned instead of guided? Some of you obv work for the sites and know that sites arent rigged and are legit. This is your oppertunity to answer a question that many of us are asking. I'm not accusing or pointing fingers. I have no affiliation with any online poker site. Is this site for us or for you?
if you are really that sure that online poker is rigged then prove it.
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:04 PM   #771
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

you cant prove it those bastards rig it to good
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:06 PM   #772
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

why couldn't this die?
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:15 PM   #773
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

PokerStars Game #1: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2009/02/07 16:13:57 ET
Table 'Tvashtri II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Aco80 ($400 in chips)
Seat 2: soah2 ($700.95 in chips)
Seat 3: frensen ($412 in chips)
Seat 4: rigtard ($149.25 in chips)
Seat 5: ajfennewald ($407.25 in chips)
Seat 6: motomagic ($468.70 in chips)
frensen: posts small blind $2
rigtard: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to soah2 [Qd Th]
ajfennewald: folds
motomagic: folds
Aco80: folds
soah2: raises $8 to $12
frensen: folds
rigtard: calls $8
*** FLOP *** [Ac 5h 8d]
rigtard: checks
soah2: bets $16
rigtard: calls $16
*** TURN *** [Ac 5h 8d] [4c]
rigtard: checks
soah2: bets $32
rigtard: calls $32
*** RIVER *** [Ac 5h 8d 4c] [Ah]
rigtard: checks
soah2: bets $120
rigtard: folds
Uncalled bet ($120) returned to soah2
soah2 collected $119 from pot
soah2: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $122 | Rake $3
Board [Ac 5h 8d 4c Ah]
Seat 1: Aco80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: soah2 (button) collected ($119)
Seat 3: frensen (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: rigtard (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 5: ajfennewald folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: motomagic folded before Flop (didn't bet)

rigtard said, "keep rigging it against me pokerstars"
rigtard said, "had a club draw and it just happens to be an A on river"
rigtard said, "so fn rigged"


hmm...

he loses cuz it's rigged or cuz he sucks? I'm pretty sure he had an 8
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Old 02-07-2009, 07:53 PM   #774
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Not hitting a flush on the river is pretty good proof. I bet he only does that 20% of the time.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:24 AM   #775
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Can you compare the randomness of the pokerstars RNG,or at leat have it investigated? i believe the seed is manipulated depending on the type of game, i think this is easy to prove, my 5 years online play has led me to believe thers a strong chance it could be the case.There are many games to choose from which would prove my theory, lets choose this one, a sample of $1 rebuy turbos to the sunday millions, each one of these satelites has about 300 players with approximatley 30 tables, the rebuy period last 15 minutes, every single one of these tables rebuy period lasts for 15 minutes and has a massive amount of action hands thus encouraging the player to go all in and then more players have to rebuy. Every table experiences a continual high percentage of action hands AA,KK AQ,AK. and Pocket Pairs, more so than other games, three and even four way all ins with monster hands, that you wouldnt see at lets say for example the final table of the sunday millions, we know this because the final table is replayed with the hole cards on display.
So to prove pokerstars are manipulating the RNG, simply take a large enough sample of $1 rebuy turbo satelites to the sunday millions, compare each tables hands for the first 15 minutes, lets assume each table is dealt around 20 or 30 hands to each player in this time, thats somewhere in the region of 600-900 hands, my proposal is that anyone of these tables in that first 15 minute time frame will produce a higher number of premium hands than any of the first 20 or 30 hands dealt at the final table of any sunday millions game.So take a sample of lets say 500 satelites with 30 tables in each game each producing over 20-30 hands in the first 15 minutes which will give a sample large enough to be significant and compare with any or all the final tables of the sunday millions first 20 or 30 hands. There will not be a single table that doesnt produce far more premium starting hands in these satelites, than the final table of the sunday millions. This will prove pokerstars are manipulating the RNG.You may ask why would they do this? Simple, if 300 people buy into a rebuy satelite thats $300, thats only one buy in to the sunday millions with a fee of $15 for every $215 buy in, so the more action the satelites generate the more rebuys, at the end of the rebuy period ther will be more like $1500 thats 6 or 7 tickets into the sunday millions with 6 or 7 buy in fees of $15 totalling $100, so for every $1 turbo satelite to the sunday millions, pokerstars has found a way to generate a larger cash intake, by creating more action.
If we prove this simple fact, then it goes without saying that they create action in other games, if they create action early on in a sit n go or a MTT then players bust out sooner due to the set up hands and buy into another game giving pokerstars more buy in fees, so in essence what poker stars are doing is creating more action to eliminate players sooner to gain more buy in fees, they are speeding up the process of the game to generate more income, more bad beats occour, more action flops, players bust out sooner because the RNG has been manipulated, this generates more buy in fees, more bad beats = more buy ins to other games = more fees for pokerstars.
You see this in many areas, usually just before a break in a MTT you get action hands, this way a player busts out and has to buy into another game, its greed plain and simple, the mentality is a 5 minute break is dead money, so lets create some action, bust some players and have them buy into another game giving pokerstars more fees.
Pokerstars manipulates the RNG and the seed, depending on the game, all cleverly designed to generate more income in different ways, but all that is needed is to prove one, the satalites comparison with sunday millions will do this. Do you really think an online gaming site would leave their profit margins to chance, everything they do is designed to make money. Thats why they make so much. Any site which claims to be fair by stating that there RNG is completley random when in fact there is proof it is not, and it is defrauding people every day out of thousands of pounds, millions every year, needs to be fully investigated, the evidence is there, if you analyse and compare the correct games, and dont allow them to give you a random sample of hands for analysis.
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