The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition - Page 308 - Internet Poker

This sounds like a pretty good idea to me. You might want to do this at the micro stakes level because the site is going to grind a fee. After thousands of hands, it is going to add up. But...this might be a good investment if it answers your questions because playing and thinking that a site might be rigged sure effects your game. It is like playing with scared money, it just doesnt work...

You, or another person who thinks this theory is or might be true, can do this. I'm not going to because I think it's a ridiculous theory that's not true.

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08-13-2009 , 12:57 PM

#7677

DonkoTheClown

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markusgc

Donko, I swear I mean this in the most constructive way possible...

If you spend the time and energy improving your game that it seems you intend to use checking out some figures to determine whether or not the sites are fair, I promise your results will improve. I strongly suggest you try that first.

Thanks Markusgc. Taken constructively. The only problem I have is that it is going to make it difficult for me to improve if I am influenced by the suspicion of being cheated. My goal is to clear this from my game and focus on getting better at the math because I am sure that I am leaving a good amount of EV on the table.

I will be the first to thank you guys for your help and to contribute on the side of "Not Rigged" if and when I reach this conclusion.

I get your point and it may be very obvious to you because you are at higher level of experience and understanding with all of this.

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08-13-2009 , 01:01 PM

#7678

Rounding4Rent

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markusgc

Mark you can't promise ****. If the game is rigged then his results will not improve - if the game is not rigged his results will improve. WHICH IS IT?

Obv I know your opinion. But you people need to stop dancing around here acting like you can guarantee online poker is not rigged - PROVE IT.

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08-13-2009 , 01:01 PM

#7679

DonkoTheClown

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMoogle

You, or another person who thinks this theory is or might be true, can do this. I'm not going to because I think it's a ridiculous theory that's not true.

I hope you are right because I would like to make poker half of what I do for a living. I think I have what it takes because I am showing good results live. I do know that there is a big difference between brick and mortar and online though.

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08-13-2009 , 01:04 PM

#7680

Markusgc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

Thanks Markusgc. Taken constructively. The only problem I have is that it is going to make it difficult for me to improve if I am influenced by the suspicion of being cheated.

yeah, I can appreciate that.

during your study, maybe you notice some of your bad habits and correct them at the same time.

Quote:

I get your point and it may be very obvious to you because you are at higher level of experience and understanding with all of this.

it never occurred to me that I was getting cheated, just that I needed to learn more. but if you've got it stuck in your head that it's possible, and have the perseverance to get this project completed, that's cool. but I honestly think that your time would be better spent reading HoH or the MTT Forum here.

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08-13-2009 , 01:04 PM

#7681

DonkoTheClown

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

It would be so much easier if some of the higher level guys did show us their hand histories and their thinking on this because then the newer guys would not have to jump through all of the hoops to getting to the right conlusion. I have not seen anything done like this myself, but maybe someone has already done this?

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08-13-2009 , 01:07 PM

#7682

Arouet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

Welcome back. We missed you R4R!

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08-13-2009 , 01:09 PM

#7683

KingOfFelt

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hitman4hire

LLLLLLLLLLLooooooooooLLLLLLLL
Im not hard to find at 5/10...But my intelect forbides me to engage with mindless fools who play on unregulated sites and trust them with money no matter how big or small That have cheated customers one way or another in the past and STILL continue to operate.
Good day sir.
PS love the zoo always GTD a jolly laugh

LOL

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08-13-2009 , 01:10 PM

#7684

DonkoTheClown

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markusgc

yeah, I can appreciate that.

during your study, maybe you notice some of your bad habits and correct them at the same time.

it never occurred to me that I was getting cheated, just that I needed to learn more. but if you've got it stuck in your head that it's possible, and have the perseverance to get this project completed, that's cool. but I honestly think that your time would be better spent reading HoH or the MTT Forum here.

You are probably right. I am a bit obsessive and meticulous... LOL!
I am hoping that this character trait will be useful in my direction forward with online poker. It has worked pretty well in other areas of my life, but this is poker...not other areas in my life...lol

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08-13-2009 , 01:13 PM

#7685

otatop

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

Mark you can't promise ****. If the game is rigged then his results will not improve - if the game is not rigged his results will improve. WHICH IS IT?

wat. So you're saying now that it's so rigged that no amount of improvement in your game will make any change on your results?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

You don't even have to look to higher level guys for this. Any of the PL/NL strat forums are full of this. Unless by "show their hand histories" you mean they've run their hands and seen if they run above, at, or below EV.

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08-13-2009 , 01:13 PM

#7686

Markusgc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

Mark you can't promise ****. If the game is rigged then his results will not improve - if the game is not rigged his results will improve. WHICH IS IT?

the non-******ed one.

I steadfastly believe I was granted a Golden Account after I read all three HoH books. I think even you could get one by doing the same.

Quote:

Obv I know your opinion. But you people need to stop dancing around here acting like you can guarantee online poker is not rigged - PROVE IT.

I don't feel the need to prove it. I'm satisfied that I'm getting a fair shake. If you want to convince me or others it's rigged, then the burden of proof is on you.

However, if Donko follows my advice I'm sure he'll become a better player and not blame some lame conspiracy in $.25 NO RAKE MTT's preventing him from winning them every time.

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08-13-2009 , 01:38 PM

#7687

DMoogle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

There are a LOT of really smart math guys with strong ethics in the online poker world. Nobody has EVER found any strong evidence that the deal is rigged at ANY of site that I know of.

FWIW, I disagree with the phrase "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence," I think it very well can be evidence of absence, just not proof of absence.

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08-13-2009 , 01:40 PM

#7688

Rounding4Rent

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARKUSGC
I'm satisfied that I'm getting a fair shake. If you want to convince me or others it's rigged, then the burden of proof is on you

First off, it is not either of our responsibilities to obtain the burden of proof. WHY IS IT, OUT OF ALL THE ONLINE POKER SITES, NOT ONE IS CONSISTENTLY REGULATED BY A TRUSTWORTHY ORGANIZATION? It is their job to offer the proof, not us.

Second off, you can have any opinion you want, just as I do. But the fact you come in here berating other people because of theirs makes you look like even more of a fool because you have no evidence to back up your beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARKUSGC
and not blame some lame conspiracy in $.25 NO RAKE MTT's preventing him from winning them every time.

Another reason you probably don't believe online poker has the possibility to be rigged is because you don't understand simple business concepts/models.

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08-13-2009 , 01:42 PM

#7689

qpw

banned

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,019

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

When are you going to stop this shilling for RealDeal?

What's that you say?

You're not shilling?

Well: PROVE IT

Or stop posting this nonsense that a cretin with advanced alzheimers would be ashamed to admit to.

Have a nice day.

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08-13-2009 , 01:45 PM

#7690

Arouet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

Another reason you probably don't believe online poker has the possibility to be rigged is because you don't understand simple business concepts/models.

Who in this thread has ever said its not possible online poker is rigged?

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08-13-2009 , 01:47 PM

#7691

Rounding4Rent

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 234

Quote:

When are you going to stop this shilling for RealDeal?

What's that you say?

You're not shilling?

Well: PROVE IT

More incentive for you to! 1000$!!!

Quote

08-13-2009 , 01:49 PM

#7692

DMoogle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

First off, it is not either of our responsibilities to obtain the burden of proof. It is their job to offer the proof, not us.

I'm going to accuse you right now of scamming me out of $5 million dollars. Prove you didn't, or pay me my $5M back. After all, using your logic the burden of proof is on you, is it not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

WHY IS IT, OUT OF ALL THE ONLINE POKER SITES, NOT ONE IS CONSISTENTLY REGULATED BY A TRUSTWORTHY ORGANIZATION?

Explain how the Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission is not a trustworthy organization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

Second off, you can have any opinion you want, just as I do. But the fact you come in here berating other people because of theirs makes you look like even more of a fool because you have no evidence to back up your beliefs.

I'm going to guess you can't see how your "second off" contradicts your "first off".

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08-13-2009 , 01:51 PM

#7693

spadebidder

Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

Another reason you probably don't believe online poker has the possibility to be rigged is because you don't understand simple business concepts/models.

It's pretty obvious that you don't with the non-sequiter statement. Nobody in this thread ever said it wasn't possible. But for large successful sites, the business case involves cost/benefit (where risk is also a cost) and the LRO for business decisions. This doesn't rule out any rigging, but it's a big factor.

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08-13-2009 , 01:59 PM

#7694

DonkoTheClown

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by otatop

wat. So you're saying now that it's so rigged that no amount of improvement in your game will make any change on your results?

You don't even have to look to higher level guys for this. Any of the PL/NL strat forums are full of this. Unless by "show their hand histories" you mean they've run their hands and seen if they run above, at, or below EV.

Sorry, that is what I mean. I would like to see the data and the outcome connected to how they ran and if this was within statistical norm. I would also like to see stats on how someone ran during critical times like "All in with the best hand", "All in with most of your stack in", etc, etc.

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08-13-2009 , 02:31 PM

#7695

spadebidder

Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,905

Worthless posts like the above make this thread useless and not worth reading. 3 column-feet to whine about normal hands with no information content whatsoever. One day I'll just quit checking back to this thread to avoid the cringe factor. Might start today.

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08-13-2009 , 02:33 PM

#7696

Blinky2099

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 900

Hey guys look at the very common amount of times I lost coinflips and 65/35s POKER MUST BE RIGGED

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08-13-2009 , 02:44 PM

#7697

Arouet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spadebidder

Spade, please don't abandon this thread. I love your posts and learn from almost all of them. Just put him on ignore.

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08-13-2009 , 02:47 PM

#7698

DMoogle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent

I made a deposit on OP this week just to have some fun - This is why I do not play OP:

Why did you deposit if you don't play?

I'm guessing live poker isn't for you either since those are just as standard live.

Quote

08-13-2009 , 02:51 PM

#7699

burden2

banned

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 969

Quote:

Originally Posted by qpw

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.

WRONG!

Determining just how often you would expect a rare event to happen is one of the fundamental purposes of probability maths.

No your wrong. What you like to do is look at rare events and explain them away with extreme bias, which is the opposite of the application of probability to real world problems.

You look at all these graphs of expected diverging from actual as a function of time (or hands played whatever) and you start talking about variance even though variance is not phenomenon that is supposed explain relationships.