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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:35 PM   #7626
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
And most of them will be idiots and degenerate gamblers, which is why the games are generally so soft live in the first place.
I wonder how many of them would say that both online and live poker are rigged, but continue playing them anyway.
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:42 PM   #7627
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Old 08-12-2009, 07:58 PM   #7628
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
Go to a local live cardroom and ask around if people think online pokers are rigged.
Most of them will answer "Yes"
They'll also tell you seat 2's been unlucky tonight, or pocket 3s have been running good lately, or pocket aces are no good because they've been cracked twice.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:41 PM   #7629
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Here it is.
Most of you have been taken in by the biggest money making scam ever internet poker.
99.9 percent of these sites are there for 1 reason only to take your monies .(regulated by who ?)
The biggest LIE ever told that gets repeated and repeated is VARIENCE.
A billion bucks has been made on this one word.(oh u run bad its varience)
A few billion has been made by trying to make u think you are no better than the average fish and the reason u are not Hi rollin is lack of knowledge and you must by books subscribe to training sites trackin software coaches ect...Wrong the top 20 percent of players on any given site provide the most liquidity.And most of them lucked into it ie won big trny got there early or went on heater or have that ultra high rake generating account that asures winnings.(the asset account)
I feel sorry for the the remaning percentage you fail and this is no reflection on your skill level business is busness.(how meny HS players have dropped out the game)
Only 1 site i know has the statistics of its RNG on the site and not just a small sample.
Why are other sites not more transparent(regulated) but remember when you have AA cracked 4x KK 5x or spots when u are a 94.4% on to win you lose on the river oh its that word again lets blame that Varience even though mathamaticly it does not add up.(and this can happen in one session).Because rake is what keeps these sites in business.
But you are now brain washed and conditioned by that word VARIENCE.
When you finally realise that somethings not right here you are told by "experts" u suck
your a fish you run under EV(VARIENCE)so they try to get you back in the circle ie i need tracker im gonna get a coach ect ect untill one day u finally wake up and realise YOU HAVE BEEN SCAMMED and no amount of training ect is gonna help u beat the site (site not players because the site RNG super users software glitches coolers rake feed hands ect ect is always comming up with ways to extract your cash)this could be after 10 dollars or 10 million in some cases or you may never wake up REDEPOSIT ANY 1.
When 99.9% of these sites are regulated and have been independently audited i may join some.
But when they are blatent crimminal enterptrises whoes tentacles spread far and wide and are making some people disgustingly rich u can count me out.

Shill away.....
Prove..... untill Enron was audited no one new but billions were scammed when some of theses sites face such scrutiny clever people with lots of money can make anything look legit and convince you otherwise.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:45 PM   #7630
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by solucky View Post
To play for fun backgammon is my prefered game, poker without winning 10-20$ / hour boring like hell.
The problem is, I'm making well over $20/hr. and still think I'm being cheated.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:48 PM   #7631
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
THIS! LOL


Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
I wonder how many of them would say that both online and live poker are rigged, but continue playing them anyway.
Then this


And..
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
They'll also tell you seat 2's been unlucky tonight, or pocket 3s have been running good lately, or pocket aces are no good because they've been cracked twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
And most of them will be idiots and degenerate gamblers, which is why the games are generally so soft live in the first place.

By the way, while I have definitely come across such people when playing live, I'd still be willing to bet that if you walked into a large poker room in Vegas and polled the room, the majority would still come out saying the games are on the level.
I have asked hundreds of live poker players whether they believe online poker is rigged..

IMO it breaks down like this:

They're old"er" and probably haven't even tried it -- they think it's rigged

They're old"er" and have tried it and got crushed -- they think it's rigged

They play a lot, but not that good -- they think it's rigged (they've lost their ass basically, a few times, and can't cope)

They play a lot, but not that good -- they don't think it's rigged (they've lost more than they wanted to) [I'm in this category]

They rarely ever play poker live or online -- they think it's rigged because they don't know sht really

They play a lot, can cope with the variance, do okay or better, and do not think it's rigged

IMO

Last edited by LVGambler; 08-12-2009 at 08:51 PM. Reason: VARIANCE
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:49 PM   #7632
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
Go to a local live cardroom and ask around if people think online pokers are rigged.
Most of them will answer "Yes"
Most of the winning players of old days will answer yes. But here's where I part company with most rigtards. I acknowledge that the online games have passed these players by. They don't get the math, they don't understand the ranges, and they don't know how to counter the semi-bluffs, re-semi-bluffs, etc. In short the games (even much smaller limits than they're used to), are too tough for them.

I completely understand that this (tougher games online) has much to do with why I don't win anywhere near per hand what I do in a live card room.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:53 PM   #7633
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman4hire View Post
Here it is.
Most of you have been taken in by the biggest money making scam ever internet poker.
99.9 percent of these sites are there for 1 reason only to take your monies .(regulated by who ?)
The biggest LIE ever told that gets repeated and repeated is VARIENCE.
A billion bucks has been made on this one word.(oh u run bad its varience)
A few billion has been made by trying to make u think you are no better than the average fish and the reason u are not Hi rollin is lack of knowledge and you must by books subscribe to training sites trackin software coaches ect...Wrong the top 20 percent of players on any given site provide the most liquidity.And most of them lucked into it ie won big trny got there early or went on heater or have that ultra high rake generating account that asures winnings.(the asset account)
I feel sorry for the the remaning percentage you fail and this is no reflection on your skill level business is busness.(how meny HS players have dropped out the game)
Only 1 site i know has the statistics of its RNG on the site and not just a small sample.
Why are other sites not more transparent(regulated) but remember when you have AA cracked 4x KK 5x or spots when u are a 94.4% on to win you lose on the river oh its that word again lets blame that Varience even though mathamaticly it does not add up.(and this can happen in one session).Because rake is what keeps these sites in business.
But you are now brain washed and conditioned by that word VARIENCE.
When you finally realise that somethings not right here you are told by "experts" u suck
your a fish you run under EV(VARIENCE)so they try to get you back in the circle ie i need tracker im gonna get a coach ect ect untill one day u finally wake up and realise YOU HAVE BEEN SCAMMED and no amount of training ect is gonna help u beat the site (site not players because the site RNG super users software glitches coolers rake feed hands ect ect is always comming up with ways to extract your cash)this could be after 10 dollars or 10 million in some cases or you may never wake up REDEPOSIT ANY 1.
When 99.9% of these sites are regulated and have been independently audited i may join some.
But when they are blatent crimminal enterptrises whoes tentacles spread far and wide and are making some people disgustingly rich u can count me out.

Shill away.....
Prove..... untill Enron was audited no one new but billions were scammed when some of theses sites face such scrutiny clever people with lots of money can make anything look legit and convince you otherwise.
For some reason whenever I see these paragraph-lacking rants I keep picturing Jack Nicholson writing "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" over and over and over and over.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:59 PM   #7634
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
You can't know except for in pots that went to showdown, pots all-in before the river being the easiest to calculate.
Right, but being primarily a limit player (where all-ins are rare), this does me little good.

Quote:
Each limit has its own best couple of regs. And I bet they'd all be complaining about running way below expectation if that theory were true, because they have a big edge against the majority of players they play against.
I'm not sure this is true. While I agree that some have a slight edge over the other, much of it is simply pushing money back and forth and waiting to get easier money. You can be better than I am, but unless you're x% better, you're not going to beat the rake against me if I'm a reasonably competent opponent.

Quote:
This is contradictory. If it's so subtle it's not noticeable at all, then it's too subtle to profit from.
For the sites?!? If I owned a site, ideally I'd want everyone to break even. Since this is unrealistic (professional players would refuse or quit playing), it would be insane to be this obvious. If I collected rake and could take away just 5% of your edge against a fish, it would benefit me a great deal in the long run. Multiply this times x number of tables and players and it would be HUGE profit. So I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:05 PM   #7635
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
For some reason whenever I see these paragraph-lacking rants I keep picturing Jack Nicholson writing "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" over and over and over and over.
I'll bet Jack knew how to spell variance.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:07 PM   #7636
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

do the rooms have superbots of their own?
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:11 PM   #7637
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
Right, but being primarily a limit player (where all-ins are rare), this does me little good.
Well I know PokerEV has a Sklansky Bucks calculator which can also be used in its graphs, which calculates how you're running in ALL showdown pots, but I would ask some of the software and math guys whether it actually means anything, I'm not sure it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
I'm not sure this is true. While I agree that some have a slight edge over the other, much of it is simply pushing money back and forth and waiting to get easier money. You can be better than I am, but unless you're x% better, you're not going to beat the rake against me if I'm a reasonably competent opponent.
That's probably right to an extent in limit, but not so much in NL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
For the sites?!? If I owned a site, ideally I'd want everyone to break even. Since this is unrealistic (professional players would refuse or quit playing), it would be insane to be this obvious. If I collected rake and could take away just 5% of your edge against a fish, it would benefit me a great deal in the long run. Multiply this times x number of tables and players and it would be HUGE profit. So I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
My point was that it's pretty much impossible to rig the games and make it undetectable. 5% of an edge taken away is still going to show up in statistical analysis, it'll just take a larger sample size to be beyond reasonable doubt than 20% of an edge would. 1% would take an even larger sample size, but that's less edge taken away. See where I'm going with this?
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:12 PM   #7638
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I'll bet Jack knew how to spell variance.

AH bidder English teacher and a shill u have meny talents good friend.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:15 PM   #7639
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

My point was that it's pretty much impossible to rig the games and make it undetectable. 5% of an edge taken away is still going to show up in statistical analysis, it'll just take a larger sample size to be beyond reasonable doubt than 20% of an edge would. 1% would take an even larger sample size, but that's less edge taken away. See where I'm going with this?[/QUOTE]

They have billions of hands and your sample is how big?Why are they not transparent ie provide statistics for any customer to analize.What is there to hide?
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:22 PM   #7640
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman4hire View Post
They have billions of hands and your sample is how big?
I don't have the know-how, nor the curiosity to perform statistical analysis. Maybe it is rigged, I can't say for sure. I just doubt it, and think most of the people who are convinced it is are stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman4hire View Post
Why are they not transparent ie provide statistics for any customer to analize.What is there to hide?
What was their response when you e-mailed them asking this? And which site are you referring to?
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:42 PM   #7641
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

The site i am playing now is regulated by the gambling/gaming authority.One of the very few they pay tax to the goverment who runs this regulatory board.
I am not saying all sites are rigged ect.But some seem to be very shady indeed.
I played at boss for over 3 years why i dont know why!!! and some of the sick disgusting beats that happend there are nigh on impossible there RNG is not 100%
I joined my site nearly 2 years ago built a roll and now play MSNL sure i get beats but NO where near what boss was like.
If a site is not regulated by an independent body i would never again play such a site.
As we have seen they cannot be trusted.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:56 PM   #7642
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
If a site is not regulated by an independent body i would never again play such a site.
As we have seen they cannot be trusted.

amen to that brotha.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:06 PM   #7643
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
do the rooms have superbots of their own?
Who are you asking? You're the one who floated this superbot "theory" in the first place.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:34 PM   #7644
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
That's probably right to an extent in limit, but not so much in NL.
I agree NL must be considerably different. That's apparent just by the fact that rakeback/bonuses are so much smaller per hand. At least it's much less in proportion to potential future bets (although this all still adds up in the long run). But I can easily see how eventually even a small edge against an otherwise good player would overtake the rake at NL and it's much harder to beat at limit. Christ, in a zero raked game I'd be making over 3bb/100 (I figured this out once and if I recall, that was the figure). As it is, I'm making less than .7bb/100.

Quote:
My point was that it's pretty much impossible to rig the games and make it undetectable.
Could you please explain how? Because I don't understand...

Quote:
5% of an edge taken away is still going to show up in statistical analysis, it'll just take a larger sample size to be beyond reasonable doubt than 20% of an edge would. 1% would take an even larger sample size, but that's less edge taken away. See where I'm going with this?
Suppose I want to analyze how often my top pair holds up against a flush draw. Even over millions of hands, how would I ever know? When my opponent folds, I have no way of knowing what he folded. If I call a site out and say, "Aha! Look at how often my top pair gets sucked out on by a flush!". They can simply say, "Well, according to our analysis they've missed exactly the number of times they should have. They just fold when they don't hit and you have no way of knowing this, because we're not going to make you privy to folded hands. Only we know what they had.".

Again, please explain this if I'm being dumb and there's an answer. If I'm 63% after the flop against a fish with a flush draw, how can I tell if he's beating me 43% of the time and I'm being robbed of 6% of my equity? I'm not trying to be combative. I just want to understand. Thanks.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:36 PM   #7645
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
Who are you asking? You're the one who floated this superbot "theory" in the first place.
Its not just online you know. I was playing at the casino last weekend and this guy's play was so suspicious I took this picture of him on my blackberry to alert casino security:








Edit: serious answer: botting is a growing problem, I just don't think it has any place in this discussion.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:28 PM   #7646
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Its not just online you know. I was playing at the casino last weekend and this guy's play was so suspicious I took this picture of him on my blackberry to alert casino security:








Edit: serious answer: botting is a growing problem, I just don't think it has any place in this discussion.
You still didnt get it, the bot I´m talking about is owned and controlled by the poker room itself, its not a regular bot.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:30 PM   #7647
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman4hire View Post
Here it is.
Most of you have been taken in by the biggest money making scam ever internet poker.
99.9 percent of these sites are there for 1 reason only to take your monies .(regulated by who ?)
The biggest LIE ever told that gets repeated and repeated is VARIENCE.
A billion bucks has been made on this one word.(oh u run bad its varience)
A few billion has been made by trying to make u think you are no better than the average fish and the reason u are not Hi rollin is lack of knowledge and you must by books subscribe to training sites trackin software coaches ect...Wrong the top 20 percent of players on any given site provide the most liquidity.And most of them lucked into it ie won big trny got there early or went on heater or have that ultra high rake generating account that asures winnings.(the asset account)
I feel sorry for the the remaning percentage you fail and this is no reflection on your skill level business is busness.(how meny HS players have dropped out the game)
Only 1 site i know has the statistics of its RNG on the site and not just a small sample.
Why are other sites not more transparent(regulated) but remember when you have AA cracked 4x KK 5x or spots when u are a 94.4% on to win you lose on the river oh its that word again lets blame that Varience even though mathamaticly it does not add up.(and this can happen in one session).Because rake is what keeps these sites in business.
But you are now brain washed and conditioned by that word VARIENCE.
When you finally realise that somethings not right here you are told by "experts" u suck
your a fish you run under EV(VARIENCE)so they try to get you back in the circle ie i need tracker im gonna get a coach ect ect untill one day u finally wake up and realise YOU HAVE BEEN SCAMMED and no amount of training ect is gonna help u beat the site (site not players because the site RNG super users software glitches coolers rake feed hands ect ect is always comming up with ways to extract your cash)this could be after 10 dollars or 10 million in some cases or you may never wake up REDEPOSIT ANY 1.
When 99.9% of these sites are regulated and have been independently audited i may join some.
But when they are blatent crimminal enterptrises whoes tentacles spread far and wide and are making some people disgustingly rich u can count me out.

Shill away.....
Prove..... untill Enron was audited no one new but billions were scammed when some of theses sites face such scrutiny clever people with lots of money can make anything look legit and convince you otherwise.

So how do you explain my being up 6 figures lifetime at online poker? Wouldn't the sites have gotten to me by now? I'm just an average guy living in Cleveland. Maybe the sites like me because I don't claim them to be rigged? I got a golden ticket account? I can see the patterns of bad beats before they happen and avoid them?
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:58 PM   #7648
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
You still didnt get it, the bot I´m talking about is owned and controlled by the poker room itself, its not a regular bot.
No I get it. But the sites running bots against the rest of us is still not rigging: DUCY?
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:22 AM   #7649
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but I am going to address it. It will be somewhat of a long post, but please read it.

As I have read, many argue that there is too much variance and too many bad beats for one to consider online poker legitimate. I think where a lot of you make mistakes in judgement is about what variance actually is. You frequently and erroneously chalk up your poor play as bad variance.

-Let me explain:

Here are some examples of some frustrating variance:

You get it all in preflop with AA against a smaller pair and he or she hits their 20% two-outer.

You get it all in on the flop with top set against an opponents flush draw and he or she gets there.

You flop top set on a rainbow, non-drawy board, fire three barrels of value into your opponent and find out his overpair hit a better set on the river.

Here are some examples of things you do that are not always bad variance, but rather poor play in general:

You continuously get it all in preflop with AK, QQ, JJ.

You continously play for stacks with overpairs and top pair.

You call off your entire stack with a set or two pair when there are three or four cards to a straight or a flush on the board.

In other words: You simply have a bad misunderstanding of the game. You have no sense of pot control, a gross obsession with preflop holdings, no comprehension of or capability to consider opponents ranges, and (in my opinion, the most devastating) the inability to fold. You wet yourself when you make some kind of mediocre hand and do not consider the fact that other hands exist that are stronger than yours; no do you consider that maybe (just maybe) your opponent is holding one of them if his or her betting pattern suggests so.

Let me think of an example to illustrate my point:

Say you are full-stacked, hold 22, and open from early position. You get calls from two full-stacked regulars behind you.

The flop: 2,3,4.

You throw out your continuation bet. The first caller raises you. The second caller shoves his entire stack in.

Now, no matter what you say here right now, I know that 100% of you rigtards snap-call this and thank God for finally giving you a hand.

In reality, this is an extremely (and I mean, extremely) easy fold.

What you should be doing here?
You should be thinking "Wow, what could they have to make them show so much strength? I mean, I know the first guy wouldn't raise my early-position open too often without a hand; and wow, the second guy definitely would not shove his entire stack in with complete air given what has already happened. Yeah, they must have something. Well let's see... What beats me? They could have 33 or 44 for a better set. They could A5 or 56 for a straight. What can I beat? They could have some kind of overpair, although that would be odd. They could have two pair. They could be on a straight draw or a flush draw. Surely one or both of them has me beat with one of those hands... even if by some miracle I am ahead and they both have draws, I sure as hell have a ton of outs to dodge. Yeah, I have almost no equity in this pot; easy fold. Whew, glad I only lost less than 10 big blinds in this pot. It could have been ugly."

But is that what you are thinking? Absolutely not. You are thinking "Thank you God, thank you, thank you, thank you." And then when the opponent flips over the winning hand, you think something like "Holy ****, WTF, that is so disgusting set over set," or "WTF, what a fish, playing A5o," or "Wow! ****ing again? Online poker is so rigged; they make the software so everytime I have a hand the opponent does too to increase the rake."

In conclusion: You all really need to improve your understanding of this game. Learn to fold. When you play correctly and truly consider opponent's ranges, you are going to stop losing so much money. You guys give off so much value with lesser hands without thinking that it significantly overshadows any value that you do extract with strong holdings. That is poor play, not riggedness. Stop negatively influencing the poker community simply because (weather you believe it or not) you are are poor player and do not understand poker. I feel like I explained myself decently well, but if any of you have legitimate questions, feel free to PM me or ask here.

Last edited by salty7; 08-13-2009 at 12:39 AM. Reason: trying to fix grammatical and spelling errors; I am tired - sorry
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:23 AM   #7650
KingOfFelt
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Are hitman4hire and rounding4rent the same person? They have been absent for a while in this thread and then just posted within 14 minutes of each other. Not to mention their unique use of the #4. Also, isn't one of them Steven Meares?

Either way they be some crazy mofo'(s). I wonder what it would be like to spend a day in their messed up mind(s).
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