Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-04-2009, 06:42 AM   #7326
feldzpar
adept
 
feldzpar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: BANNED
Posts: 985
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I imagine our face to face conversation will involve a warm cup of tea, some crumpets, and a real in depth analysis of online poker. We will become great friends and resolve this entire issue.
feldzpar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 06:45 AM   #7327
feldzpar
adept
 
feldzpar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: BANNED
Posts: 985
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
It just sounds to me that you're a xenophobe who dislikes foreigners. Why is that?

I dont play the xylophone.

I feel that USA is in trouble, our economy is collapsing, we have allowed business and jobs to leave the country to avoid paying employees good wages, we have allowed rich folks to escape from paying taxes by using offshore accounts, we have shopped at walmart and purchased chinese goods and practically shut down all factories in our country.

USA needs to start keeping our money in our country and looking out for our own citizens.
feldzpar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 07:01 AM   #7328
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post

I dont play the xylophone.

I feel that USA is in trouble, our economy is collapsing, we have allowed business and jobs to leave the country to avoid paying employees good wages, we have allowed rich folks to escape from paying taxes by using offshore accounts, we have shopped at walmart and purchased chinese goods and practically shut down all factories in our country.

USA needs to start keeping our money in our country and looking out for our own citizens.
loooooooooooooooool

NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 07:02 AM   #7329
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Is it just Jewish people that you dislike, or are there other minorities as well?
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 07:42 AM   #7330
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
NO, I can play for hours in a live room and remember one bad beat happening, play 30 min online, God didn't give me enough fingers or toes.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
1/2 NL Live

3 way pot

I have 22 in the sb, button raises to 6, I call, MP calls...

flop comes 2KK...I check, MP checks, button bets 24

I raise and make it 70, he calls.

turn is a FN K, I check he goes all in.....WOW
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 07:43 AM   #7331
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
USA needs to start keeping our money in our country and looking out for our own citizens.
The only problem with that is that the US has such massive debt and owes so much to other countries that if the rest of the world retalliated and took their money from the US then the US economy would completely collapse.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:02 AM   #7332
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
I am planning a trip to visit some of the pokerstars owners, have a little face to face time with them.
In before restraining order.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:32 AM   #7333
Lestat
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,995
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
It is as if questioning the legitimacy of an online site creates so much anger amongst a few people.

This is because many of those people are losing players themselves. They think they are gaining legitimacy and showing off how good they are by berating "rigtards". They take pride in not even having to entertain the possibility that there might be reason for concern. It's as if they're saying, "See how good I am? I don't have to complain!".

The problem is they don't realize that there are also many WINNING players who think something's not quite right with online play as well.

So there are good players on both sides of the fence. A select few are capable of having a reasonable, intelligent, and productive discussion about it. What makes this thread a joke are the ones at either extreme. Both those who are clearly losing players and make outrageous claims of 2-outers being a coin flip, and those at the other extreme who pile on anyone with a legitimate concern with thoughtless berating in order to make themselves look good.
Lestat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:42 AM   #7334
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
A select few are capable of having a reasonable, intelligent, and productive discussion about it. What makes this thread a joke are the ones at either extreme. Both those who are clearly losing players and make outrageous claims of 2-outers being a coin flip, and those at the other extreme who pile on anyone with a legitimate concern with thoughtless berating in order to make themselves look good.
I think this is very accurate.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 10:58 AM   #7335
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
So there are good players on both sides of the fence. A select few are capable of having a reasonable, intelligent, and productive discussion about it. What makes this thread a joke are the ones at either extreme. Both those who are clearly losing players and make outrageous claims of 2-outers being a coin flip, and those at the other extreme who pile on anyone with a legitimate concern with thoughtless berating in order to make themselves look good.
It's not really that simple.

Most of those who 'pile on rigtards' actually only 'pile on' a small proportion of those who have concerns.

If you had repeatedly tried to explain in a rational manner why the offered 'evidence' of bizarre hands is actually nothing much out of the ordinary, including showing the appropriate maths, only to be repeatedly called a shill or simple have the explanation ignored, then you might well feel like doing a bit of 'piling on'.

The number of people who are actually insulted is quite small, 6-8 or so accounts with probably 3-4 people behind them over any six month period and these are people who persistantly post complete nonsense and ignore any attempt a rational debate.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 12:46 PM   #7336
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post

So there are good players on both sides of the fence. A select few are capable of having a reasonable, intelligent, and productive discussion about it. What makes this thread a joke are the ones at either extreme. Both those who are clearly losing players and make outrageous claims of 2-outers being a coin flip, and those at the other extreme who pile on anyone with a legitimate concern with thoughtless berating in order to make themselves look good.
If you look back through the thread you will notice that there are very few people on the "rigged" side of things that just think it "may" be possible. Most of the people who say that it is rigged are convinced that it is, although sometimes they will make their first post under the guise that they think it might be, but then quickly change into the "it has to be rigged" camp.

Those who don't think it is rigged (at least in this thread) don't state that it is 100% impossible; however, there could be a giant dragon floating somewhere in outer space but you're going to have to provide proof before I believe it. All that we ask is that some sort of evidence is produced to support the "rigged" claim. Evidence does not include "I can see patterns with my mind".

The most telling part of this thread is that the real statistical analysis is usually being done by those on the side of "probably not rigged" (see Spadebidder). I have yet to see someone who claims it is rigged provide any sort of analysis on the subject. And no, individual hand histories don't count.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 01:06 PM   #7337
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
If you look back through the thread you will notice that there are very few people on the "rigged" side of things that just think it "may" be possible. Most of the people who say that it is rigged are convinced that it is, although sometimes they will make their first post under the guise that they think it might be, but then quickly change into the "it has to be rigged" camp.

Those who don't think it is rigged (at least in this thread) don't state that it is 100% impossible;
Exactly.

As I have posted several times to the worst rigtards (who, naturally, simply ignore the point):

You belive a site is definitely rigged despite there being no evidence that it is.

I belive a site is probably not rigged because there is no evidence that it is.

Trying to promote the view that those saying OLP is definitely rigged and those saying it is probably not rigged are two equal extremes is disingenuous at best and downright stupid at worst.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 01:48 PM   #7338
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
I imagine our face to face conversation will involve a warm cup of tea, some crumpets, and a real in depth analysis of online poker. We will become great friends and resolve this entire issue.
re-post. sorry.

Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 02:11 PM   #7339
Lestat
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,995
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
All that we ask is that some sort of evidence is produced to support the "rigged" claim. Evidence does not include "I can see patterns with my mind".
I used to spend time in the philosophy forum and believe me, I'm the first to agree that those who make claims are the ones who need to provide evidence. Not the other way around.

People *think* they can use their own results as evidence. If you beat a live game for 1bb/hr. in a limit hold'em game, it's easy to think that a puny
.5bb/100 win rate online is evidence that something is wrong. Of course, it's not. It could easily be that the games are much tougher online and edge drops sharply. Either way...

From the little I've read in this thread, it seems obvious to me that some of those who like to bash rigtards are just as ill informed as those they are bashing. And probably just as big of losers as well.
Lestat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 02:31 PM   #7340
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
I used to spend time in the philosophy forum and believe me, I'm the first to agree that those who make claims are the ones who need to provide evidence. Not the other way around.

People *think* they can use their own results as evidence. If you beat a live game for 1bb/hr. in a limit hold'em game, it's easy to think that a puny
.5bb/100 win rate online is evidence that something is wrong. Of course, it's not. It could easily be that the games are much tougher online and edge drops sharply. Either way...

From the little I've read in this thread, it seems obvious to me that some of those who like to bash rigtards are just as ill informed as those they are bashing. And probably just as big of losers as well.

Any person who believes it is rigged and comes in here presenting solid evidence would not be mocked. In fact, I wouldn't even consider them a "rigtard". The problem is, and it should be apparent from reading the thread, is that evidence is almost never presented other than unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and individual hand histories.

Giving the crazies the time of day when they aren't bothering to provide any evidence isn't high on most people's priority lists.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 03:05 PM   #7341
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
From the little I've read in this thread, it seems obvious to me that some of those who like to bash rigtards are just as ill informed as those they are bashing. And probably just as big of losers as well.
LOL, I'm not sure what relevance debaters win rates have on the subject of debate.

Perhaps you could expand a little on that?

It seems to me that you've come on to this thread to insult those on both sides of the argument.

Still, as it's an anything goes type of thread I suppose that's OK as long as it keeps you amused.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 03:08 PM   #7342
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Any person who believes it is rigged and comes in here presenting solid evidence would not be mocked. In fact, I wouldn't even consider them a "rigtard".
Quite. Absolutely agreed.

But, as Lestat admits, he's read only a little of the thread before making his pronouncements so he's hardly talking from a position of great knowledge.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 03:11 PM   #7343
feldzpar
adept
 
feldzpar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: BANNED
Posts: 985
Evidence, why not just look at motive. Do you really, truly think that a multibillion dollar business is going to leave any evidence that any small amount of fixing is going on? Do you think internet geeks like us could bring down a corrupt corporation like Enron or say if Microsoft was screwing people, could we as a group on 2+2 seriously take down Bill Gates. The reality is, if you do not want to look at the possability oof rigging, if you want to shoot down thousands of claims that people have made about improbable beats and frustrating swings of online poker then I don't know what to tell you.

Why do people ignore the status of where these companies are located?

Why do people trust a computer screen and not question the motives of greed from a multibillion dollar outfit? Do you trust the oil companies? or, what about Wal Mart CEO's, are they doing whats best for the world?

Motive and opportunity should warrant extreme scrutiny and at least open the door for some serious consideration into these sites not being legitimate, and, the truth is they are not legal, and if any of these Stars CEO's came onto US soil, LEAVENWORTH.
They are criminals, that look at the world through different eyes that young online poker playing Americans, who assume the world is a fair shake.


Quote:
Is it just Jewish people that you dislike, or are there other minorities as well?
I do not dislike Jews, I dislike people who have motives to bring down America.

America consists of all races and religions, I have no problem with any of them. I just think for too long America has policed the world, taken advantage of poorer countries for getting cheap labor, have stuck our fat nose in everybody elses problems, now were broke. Stay home, buy American, create jobs here, keep our money in our country and stop trying to help everyone else out.

It boils down to keeping USA afloat, cause right now this country is sinking quickly. American made is soon to be a vintage item.


One more quick point I was discussing with a poker friend last night. BTW chopped a tourney three ways last night...LIVE.

If you get a chance request like 100 hand history, all you need, especially if you recently went late into a tourney. Look at the quality of hands, every game, full boat over flush, two pair beat TPTK, set over set, straight beat by royal, I mean it gets to be laughable. I sat there last night playing in the live tournament and watched showdowns, usually TPTK beat TP second best kicker or Set beats TPTK. Its just kinda obvious action online is induced if you play large amounts of both sides of poker.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 08-04-2009 at 05:22 PM.
feldzpar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 03:28 PM   #7344
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
I have a hard time reading posts by people who refuse to believe that it is even possible, maybe not probable, that any online site has interest in both speeding up MTT by adding action flops to induce action and building pots in live games to build rake.

It is as if questioning the legitimacy of an online site creates so much anger amongst a few people.

It wouldn't bother people to question offshore bank accounts legitimacy before depositing thousands of dollars, nor would you question purchasing a car from say Pakistan or the Phillipenes over the internet. Yet they deposit online into a bank account in an effort to make mirrions, i just laugh. Who do you know personally who has made mirrions playing online, wait even hundo of thousands?

Look at the rake paid, look at the bad beats, question the motives of the sites, question the legitimacy of these greedy companies, question the bad beats, question everything.

Evidence I have read from Stars supporters is as follows.

1. Learn probability, odds are your gonna see bad beats, gonna happen. NO, I can play for hours in a live room and remember one bad beat happening, play 30 min online, God didn't give me enough fingers or toes.

2. Sites need credibility to stay in business. Not true, they just need you to think they are credible.

3. They make so much money off rake already why do they need to make any more. What are you new? Greed my friends, unmoderated capitalism, if you could make 1 mirrion a day being legit and by setting up action flops enducing play can make you 1.5 mirrion a day, guess what will happen. Greed.

4. I win at online, how can it be rigged. Talk to me in five years, beat it, good luck, most will not make a consistent profit in the next five years, exclusive to US players.

5. Fools are saying its bad beats they happen, varience is a beotch....so are greedy folks who hide offshore and take Americans money after getting them hooked to online poker.


I hope some consider online is rigged, and if you dont consider it, you are the sucker in my OPINION. I am planning a trip to visit some of the pokerstars owners, have a little face to face time with them. I am so angry that us dumb Americans continue to waste our money on this rigged BS. Go to Vegas, Play in local rooms, play in home games, keep our money in our country, PLEASE!!!!!!!
Amen!
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 03:41 PM   #7345
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
BTW chopped a tourney three ways last night...LIVE.

I sat there last night playing in the live tournament and watched showdowns, usually TPTK beat TP second best kicker or Set beats TPTK.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 03:47 PM   #7346
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Exactly.

As I have posted several times to the worst rigtards (who, naturally, simply ignore the point):

You belive a site is definitely rigged despite there being no evidence that it is.

I belive a site is probably not rigged because there is no evidence that it is.

Trying to promote the view that those saying OLP is definitely rigged and those saying it is probably not rigged are two equal extremes is disingenuous at best and downright stupid at worst.
Lots of people believe firmly in things for which they have no evidence dumbass.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 03:55 PM   #7347
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Lots of people believe firmly in things for which they have no evidence dumbass.
And they are usually incorrect in their beliefs.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 04:01 PM   #7348
solucky
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,480
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
I do not dislike Jews, I dislike people who have motives to bring down America.

America consists of all races and religions, I have no problem with any of them. I just think for too long America has policed the world, taken advantage of poorer countries for getting cheap labor, have stuck our fat nose in everybody elses problems, now were broke. Stay home, buy American, create jobs here, keep our money in our country and stop trying to help everyone else out.

It boils down to keeping USA afloat, cause right now this country is sinking quickly. American made is soon to be a vintage item.
Maybee you forget that the whole world pay the USA real estate credits.
And that the USA borrowed the most money from China and Arabs.
solucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 04:03 PM   #7349
feldzpar
adept
 
feldzpar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: BANNED
Posts: 985
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Maybee you forget that the whole world pay the USA real estate credits.
And that the USA borrowed the most money from China and Arabs.

How can I forget, CNN reminds me everyday.

Maybe the world forgot that America has saved everyone from Hitler to Communism.
feldzpar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 04:14 PM   #7350
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by feldzpar View Post
How can I forget, CNN reminds me everyday.

Maybe the world forgot that America has saved everyone from Hitler to Communism.
I went to Cuba a few years ago. Best trip I've ever had. Thanks for saving me from Communism.

In all seriousness though, I respect what many Americans have done in the past for many countries, but the US citizens who actually make the positive differences in the world are not xenophobic conspiracy theorists such as yourself.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive