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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:33 AM   #6926
lazyworkaholic
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Re: Question to Full Tilt Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
They are obviously picking on you.

Either give up poker or move to another site.
That **** happens on Poker Stars and Ongame too. It's not the fact that suckouts happen, but the amount of suckouts I am receiving for over 3 months now.
AQ < QT ~30% chance of losing, okay don't mind
AAA < flush draw ~24% of losing, okay happens
AA < AK runner runner straight 8% chance of losing

But if you never (never ever!) win with the better hand in a while then this is really strange. I mean in like every (other) SnG I bust with hands where I am favourite.
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:51 AM   #6927
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Re: Question to Full Tilt Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyworkaholic View Post
That **** happens on Poker Stars and Ongame too. It's not the fact that suckouts happen, but the amount of suckouts I am receiving for over 3 months now.
AQ < QT ~30% chance of losing, okay don't mind
AAA < flush draw ~24% of losing, okay happens
AA < AK runner runner straight 8% chance of losing

But if you never (never ever!) win with the better hand in a while then this is really strange. I mean in like every (other) SnG I bust with hands where I am favourite.
they're out to get you imo
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:41 AM   #6928
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Re: Question to Full Tilt Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyworkaholic View Post
But if you never (never ever!) win with the better hand in a while then this is really strange. I mean in like every (other) SnG I bust with hands where I am favourite.
Selective memory's not that strange.

Oh, I mean they're out to get you imo.
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Old 07-18-2009, 06:49 AM   #6929
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

There's a debate?
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:19 AM   #6930
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Re: Question to Full Tilt Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyworkaholic View Post
I use an equilator to check the %. It's not something I make up from my memory. I play online poker for 3+ years now and I know most % of standard situations anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyworkaholic View Post
That **** happens on Poker Stars and Ongame too. It's not the fact that suckouts happen, but the amount of suckouts I am receiving for over 3 months now.
AQ < QT ~30% chance of losing, okay don't mind
AAA < flush draw ~24% of losing, okay happens
AA < AK runner runner straight 8% chance of losing

But if you never (never ever!) win with the better hand in a while then this is really strange. I mean in like every (other) SnG I bust with hands where I am favourite.
Feel free to post just how unucky you have been with complete hand histories / graphs etc rather than just explaining the odds of individual events and then saying you "never " win them.
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:40 AM   #6931
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

damn onlinepoker is so rigged , i cant get my sleep cause im cant stop winning - thats so wired i get mx 3 hours a night.
rigged!
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:48 PM   #6932
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

hey, qpw, did you test my hands?
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:27 AM   #6933
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

R4R admitting that he had absolutely nothing of significance to add to this debate (I'm paraphrasing, obv) really seems to have taken the wind out of the current crop of rigtards sails. I think we need a new batch!
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:43 AM   #6934
TheMaverick
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Online Integrity

So I had issues with the win ratio of all-in situations in my last 50 tourneys.
Won 4 out of 14 when dominant hand pre-flop and won
3 out of 18 when I was behind pre-flop.

I only won when I had AA-TT pairs and only in early stages or
for 10% addition to my stack. So what I'm saying is I NEVER won
a crucial all-in when it mattered.

Some examples were 33 beating my QQ, being busted by 95 suit and then
falling to the monster that is 84 off......

Anyway, this led me to watch a tourney on pokerstars and I found something
more interesting:

Two players chip stacks changed without playing a hand:-

One player moved table and lost 40k in transit? Another wins a pot
to be at 250k and 4th position. But then this player vanishes next hand
and is confirmed as tenth finisher??? (See below) Being knocked out of a tournament when not in a hand is a pretty 'bad beat' imo : )


PokerStars Game #30549821776: Tournament #178356407, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2009/07/17 1:06:29 ET
Table '178356407 97' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: 62141peerce (13667 in chips)
Seat 2: MR_BOSS_420 (46438 in chips)
Seat 3: coIdfinger (118654 in chips)
Seat 4: pokergus (20932 in chips)
Seat 5: kindlelee (44226 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: donkey2009 (28072 in chips)
Seat 7: Alara Praes (25244 in chips)
Seat 8: rog131 (4623 in chips)
Seat 9: 28101953 (70574 in chips)
62141peerce: posts the ante 200
MR_BOSS_420: posts the ante 200
coIdfinger: posts the ante 200
pokergus: posts the ante 200
kindlelee: posts the ante 200
donkey2009: posts the ante 200
Alara Praes: posts the ante 200
rog131: posts the ante 200
28101953: posts the ante 200
MR_BOSS_420: posts small blind 1000
coIdfinger: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
pokergus: calls 2000
kindlelee: folds
donkey2009: raises 25872 to 27872 and is all-in
Alara Praes: folds
rog131: folds
28101953: folds
62141peerce: folds
MR_BOSS_420: folds
coIdfinger: folds
pokergus: calls 18732 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (7140) returned to donkey2009
*** FLOP *** [3h 8h 5c]
*** TURN *** [3h 8h 5c] [5s]
*** RIVER *** [3h 8h 5c 5s] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pokergus: shows [8c Ac] (a full house, Fives full of Eights)
donkey2009: shows [Jd Js] (a full house, Fives full of Jacks)
donkey2009 collected 46264 from pot



PokerStars Game #30549897052: Tournament #178356407, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2009/07/17 1:10:40 ET
Table '178356407 246' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: dawgystyle31 (91994 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: yenoM hsaK (28856 in chips)
Seat 4: zman4hbo (38186 in chips)
Seat 5: qube99 (33438 in chips)
Seat 6: kindlelee (5225 in chips) Seat 7: AJFord66 (35902 in chips)
Seat 8: holdumjoe111 (69402 in chips)
Seat 9: its420inbc (31514 in chips)
dawgystyle31: posts the ante 200
yenoM hsaK: posts the ante 200
zman4hbo: posts the ante 200
qube99: posts the ante 200
kindlelee: posts the ante 200
AJFord66: posts the ante 200
holdumjoe111: posts the ante 200
its420inbc: posts the ante 200
holdumjoe111: posts small blind 1000
its420inbc: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
dawgystyle31: folds
yenoM hsaK: folds
zman4hbo: raises 3000 to 5000
qube99: folds
kindlelee: calls 5000
AJFord66: folds
holdumjoe111: calls 4000
its420inbc: folds
*** FLOP *** [8s 2h Kh]
holdumjoe111: checks
zman4hbo: bets 3000
kindlelee: calls 25 and is all-in
holdumjoe111: folds
Uncalled bet (2975) returned to zman4hbo
*** TURN *** [8s 2h Kh] [6c]
*** RIVER *** [8s 2h Kh 6c] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
zman4hbo: shows [Ad 7d] (high card Ace)
kindlelee: shows [Qd 8h] (a pair of Eights)
kindlelee collected 18650 from pot


--

PokerStars Game #30550812728: Tournament #178356407, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX (3000/6000) - 2009/07/17 2:04:42 ET
Table '178356407 124' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Kollopfish (78591 in chips)
Seat 2: 62141peerce (141040 in chips)
Seat 3: holdumjoe111 (210363 in chips)
Seat 4: zman4hbo (62322 in chips)
Seat 5: Stinkfist007 (29259 in chips)
Seat 6: gailutter (127377 in chips)
Seat 7: phazeds (237513 in chips)
Seat 9: donkey2009 (301238 in chips)
Kollopfish: posts the ante 600
62141peerce: posts the ante 600
holdumjoe111: posts the ante 600
zman4hbo: posts the ante 600
Stinkfist007: posts the ante 600
gailutter: posts the ante 600
phazeds: posts the ante 600
donkey2009: posts the ante 600
donkey2009: posts small blind 3000
Kollopfish: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
62141peerce: folds
holdumjoe111: folds
zman4hbo: folds
Stinkfist007: folds
gailutter: folds
phazeds: raises 12000 to 18000
donkey2009: folds
Kollopfish: folds
Uncalled bet (12000) returned to phazeds
phazeds collected 19800 from pot


Next hand Phazeds is gone and is confirmed as 10th place finisher?

PokerStars Game #30550820696: Tournament #178356407, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX (3000/6000) - 2009/07/17 2:05:12 ET
Table '178356407 124' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Kollopfish (71991 in chips)
Seat 2: 62141peerce (140440 in chips)
Seat 3: holdumjoe111 (209763 in chips)
Seat 4: zman4hbo (61722 in chips)
Seat 5: Stinkfist007 (28659 in chips)
Seat 6: gailutter (126777 in chips)
Seat 9: donkey2009 (297638 in chips)
Kollopfish: posts the ante 600
62141peerce: posts the ante 600
holdumjoe111: posts the ante 600
zman4hbo: posts the ante 600
Stinkfist007: posts the ante 600
gailutter: posts the ante 600
donkey2009: posts the ante 600
Kollopfish: posts small blind 3000
62141peerce: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
holdumjoe111: folds
zman4hbo: folds
Stinkfist007: folds
gailutter: folds
donkey2009: folds
Kollopfish: raises 65391 to 71391 and is all-in
62141peerce: folds
Uncalled bet (65391) returned to Kollopfish
Kollopfish collected 16200 from pot
Kollopfish: doesn't show hand

Phazeds is gone at final table

Thoughts please
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:46 AM   #6935
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Re: Online Integrity

lol
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:53 AM   #6936
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Re: Online Integrity

holy lolz
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #6937
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Re: Online Integrity

Call James Garner, maybe he can help.
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Old 07-19-2009, 04:48 PM   #6938
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Re: Online Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaverick View Post
Thoughts please
Email support@pokerstars.com and get them to explain it to you. Then post emails here.
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Old 07-19-2009, 06:02 PM   #6939
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Re: Online Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaverick View Post
PokerStars Game #30549821776: Tournament #178356407, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2009/07/17 1:06:29 ET

PokerStars Game #30549897052: Tournament #178356407, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2009/07/17 1:10:40 ET
I'd say this has something to do with it. I can't remember the last time I played a hand online that took over 4 minutes.
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:11 PM   #6940
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I did spot the 4 min one so would need to see the hand history but
there's no denying the other hand. Player in 4th with 250k chips
disappears into thin air as it goes to final table?

If you sit and watch a low limit tourney and the small stacks being sucked
out all-in it's actually funny.

I sat out of every hand the other day when I had less chips than the opponent and then I attacked the small stack with J4 offsuit and hit a
A-5 straight. Great fun!!
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:39 PM   #6941
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaverick View Post
I did spot the 4 min one so would need to see the hand history but
there's no denying the other hand. Player in 4th with 250k chips
disappears into thin air as it goes to final table?

If you sit and watch a low limit tourney and the small stacks being sucked
out all-in it's actually funny.

I sat out of every hand the other day when I had less chips than the opponent and then I attacked the small stack with J4 offsuit and hit a
A-5 straight. Great fun!!
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:31 PM   #6942
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
FWIW, I've been fortunate enough to never have experienced a 989:1 (the exact odds of a perfect runner-runner, IIRC) with all the money in on the flop.
Play SNGs.

Btw I've ran KK into AA on the first hand of a SNG about 10x in the last week. Very annoying. You really start thinking about folding when it's the first hand and some unknown puts in that 4-bet min-reraise. Then you slap yourself and say "I have KK in a SNG!" and shove and see AA.
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:39 PM   #6943
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

lol SnGs
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:56 PM   #6944
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

My Roi is over 21 now on FT after never being able to break 6 or 7 on stars- and I have taken some MONSTER beats on FT (including a 99% equity edge on the flop where the villain could only get runner runner non heart straight cards to win), yet my hands hold up enough for me to do well. That's poker. You win some, you lose some, but if you keep getting it in good you win over time. Unless you're playing on poker stars.

I have an experiment which I have done which I ask the pokerstars faithful to also do. Play HU on pokerstars for a day or two and get a lot of hands in. Then go to pogo.com and play in their 4 person tourneys for a day or over several days (who wants to waste a whole day playing for free?). Just play at both these places and see if you don't get STRONG sense of a SHARP contrast in what kind of hands are made in short handed hold'em games at these two different sites. By the way pogo is free to play, there is no wagering done on their site at all so they truly have no incentive whatsoever to cheat anyone.

Players make pairs, straights and flushes wayyy too often at stars. A small amount of comparison playing at pogo will show you this. I can't prove it mathematically, but EVERY time I say to myself "there is no way stars is cheating that's a ridiculous conspiracy theory of bitter losers" I go on and play and it's like wow, it never ends, the bs never ends.

And I still have no response as to why the biggest highest stakes games are played on the site with less players, poorer customer service, and tougher transaction hurdles.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:59 PM   #6945
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

SO sick, especially for us lolmaha players: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54...ulator-535212/
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:07 PM   #6946
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by burden2 View Post
My Roi is over 21 now on FT after never being able to break 6 or 7 on stars- and I have taken some MONSTER beats on FT (including a 99% equity edge on the flop where the villain could only get runner runner non heart straight cards to win), yet my hands hold up enough for me to do well. That's poker. You win some, you lose some, but if you keep getting it in good you win over time. Unless you're playing on poker stars.

I have an experiment which I have done which I ask the pokerstars faithful to also do. Play HU on pokerstars for a day or two and get a lot of hands in. Then go to pogo.com and play in their 4 person tourneys for a day or over several days (who wants to waste a whole day playing for free?). Just play at both these places and see if you don't get STRONG sense of a SHARP contrast in what kind of hands are made in short handed hold'em games at these two different sites. By the way pogo is free to play, there is no wagering done on their site at all so they truly have no incentive whatsoever to cheat anyone.

Players make pairs, straights and flushes wayyy too often at stars. A small amount of comparison playing at pogo will show you this. I can't prove it mathematically, but EVERY time I say to myself "there is no way stars is cheating that's a ridiculous conspiracy theory of bitter losers" I go on and play and it's like wow, it never ends, the bs never ends.

And I still have no response as to why the biggest highest stakes games are played on the site with less players, poorer customer service, and tougher transaction hurdles.
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:13 PM   #6947
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by burden2 View Post
Players make pairs, straights and flushes wayyy too often at stars. A small amount of comparison playing at pogo will show you this. I can't prove it mathematically, but EVERY time I say to myself "there is no way stars is cheating that's a ridiculous conspiracy theory of bitter losers" I go on and play and it's like wow, it never ends, the bs never ends.
Why do you think Stars would always cheat you and favor your opponents? Why are they never cheated? What if two of them play each other?

I am sure you have played against some good winning players, wouldn't Stars cheat for you then?

Your experiment comparing real money games with free games has a bit of a flaw in it, you can figure out what it might be, however I suspect if you go to the Stars play money tables and compare the hands that go to showdown against the $1/2 NL tables you might find differences as well. If you think that proves something fishy is at work, well, not quite sure what to tell you.
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:33 PM   #6948
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
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Players make pairs, straights and flushes wayyy too often at stars.
Tell me, in your expert opinion, how often should players make these specific hands?
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:39 PM   #6949
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by burden2 View Post
Players make pairs, straights and flushes wayyy too often at stars. A small amount of comparison playing at pogo will show you this. I can't prove it mathematically
Then how do you know it happens?

Saying "they happen too often" means you know both how often they should happen and how often they do, which would let you prove your beliefs mathematically. It's really not that complicated, which is why it's so annoying. People show up, say something easily provable then tack on "but I can't prove it" and then drift into the ether.

I guess it's easier than downloading PT or HEM and looking things over and running them through pokerstove, plus it lets you continue to blame your bad luck on the sites rather than yourself, so in a way it makes sense.
Quote:

And I still have no response as to why the biggest highest stakes games are played on the site with less players, poorer customer service, and tougher transaction hurdles.
Because they have higher stakes games.
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Old 07-20-2009, 01:23 AM   #6950
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
Then how do you know it happens?

Saying "they happen too often" means you know both how often they should happen and how often they do, which would let you prove your beliefs mathematically. It's really not that complicated, which is why it's so annoying. People show up, say something easily provable then tack on "but I can't prove it" and then drift into the ether.

I guess it's easier than downloading PT or HEM and looking things over and running them through pokerstove, plus it lets you continue to blame your bad luck on the sites rather than yourself, so in a way it makes sense.

Because they have higher stakes games.
It's difficult to "prove" things mathematically- not "easy" like you say. And your criticism is just as valid towards pokerstars, since they have never proven, by EMPIRICAL proof, that they are fairly dealing. Saying that some company they are paying audits some software that stars gives them, is by no means any type of proof. Please I invite you to take my pogo challenge. Just play there. It's fun (to see the atrocious play), free, and you will see how often A high is the best hand in short handed hold'em.

You might be surprised how often the conclusions of casual inspection matches up with the results of rigorous statistical analysis. The boards are ragged way more often on pogo. Top pair is a good hand on pogo. I don't have numbers to back it up, but I am confident that anyone who played on both sites would quickly see what I am talking about. Whether they would then steadfastly chalk it up to variance is another matter but I have played too much on stars not to see a sharp difference.

So you are saying stars does not offer higher stakes games? Why would that be? Maybe they don't want the smarter, higher stakes players to recognize patterns in their deal?
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