So are you implying that every person is a thief and will steal from any other human at any time regardless of whether that action was even the most profitable line because of inherent greed?

If so perhaps you are projecting because the vast majority of people would be perfectly happy and more inclined to make a great deal of money honestly if the had the chance as apposed to being a thief.

To answer your question: no. lol some people are though. i have a question for you: do you think the wealthiest people got there by not being more greedy than everyone else?

Yes he has, he was one of the first posters in this thread, years and years later here he is! Still arguing with idiots. He is not a prop though, they don't exist... I asked!

Sorry i couldnt resist that one 5thstreethog. lol good job

what do you mean by prop? proponent?

I know, pretty crazy, right? I mean, he's at something like 7 or 8 posts a month here!!!

Not quite able to keep pace with you though - over 80 posts in under 6 weeks. Does the pay increase with frequency?

And theres bobo from the beginning of the thread ROFL

actually the heads side is slightly more weighted. this is a problem with the donkey test also

Yup, I've probably got double 5th's posts, so I expect I'm somewhere around a post every couple of days. Let me tell you, that sure brings in the paycheques!

^^ I'm at 4.35 posts per day, sir (and all of quality I assure you...lol). Might not Bobo level, but if not for posts, I'd probably still be pushing shopping carts at Walmart.

Oh...and online poker isn't rigged.

/thread

I'm talking posts ITT, silly. I'm at a lot more than that overall - somewhere between 13 and 14 last time I checked.

I just got 2nd in a tourney for $280 and I still feel like I'm pushing shopping carts.

Bobo do u say not rigged?

My philosophy is 99% of people don't know heads is more likely to land face down in a coin flip(being that it is slightly heavier) and 99% of people have no idea why online poker could be rigged(in some form or another, as contrary to our collective idea of perfectly random card distributiouns). I am reading this entire thread to try to gain some new insights. I feel as though I have more insight into this then 95% of the posters so far... page 20 still have a ways to go.

well deserved repost lol

A great point is that they would only rig their rngs at low stakes as to keep more money circulating because that is where the majority of major sites' rake comes from. Mid-High stakes players would probably notice through software that something is out of the ordinary otherwise.... But would a site really employee multiple RNGs for different stakes? My thoughts are: if it is cost effective, yes.

If heads is heavier, wouldn't it slightly more likely to lose in a flip?

However, people talking about coinflips do so assuming the coin is fair, which obviously is a (legit) mathematical simplification.

It most likely isn't cost effective to try though. A rig actually would be pretty expensive, if you factor development, maintenance, bribes and the risk of losing the whole business in. Also, on Pokerstars for example, are hundreds of microstakes players using exactly the same databases and mathematical tools that high stakes players use.

I believe most low stakes players wouldn't notice the difference if a site is dishing out the cards in a skewed fashion because most players at these stakes are recs. If a site can make more money without being noticed, would they? I still think a reasonable percentage of people left unattended with a large sum of money(comparative to their net worth) would lay claim to it if unimpeded. Yes, those would be the more greedy people out there. Are the poker companies founded by people who fall into that percentage of greedy people? It's a little bigger then stealing candy from a baby. It's more than doubling your companies net worth and profits... The more the money circulates at low stakes the more ends up in the poker companies pockets. It is therefore in their best interest to rig the cards to favor the worse players at the lowest(highest rake volume) limits. And yes I am implying most low stakes players are babies lol. My internet IQ is about 180.. my real IQ somewhere between 120-130 and I have a distinct gut feeling that there is always something going on with the cards I get at low stakes. Soon I will move up to places where this will no longer effect me.

Most low stakes players can be babies AND still hundreds of them can be using trackers and have the possibility to read a wiki site and prove a rig. The chance that a rig exists and noone ever found proof until now is very, very near zero.

I do, in fact, carefully read what others say. Its all about precision and meaning.

Given your protestations here, your allegation is that 888 poker gives a non random deal which leads to a surfeit of both bad beats and huge monster hands, but that this is not done by the site to increase their profits ?

Do you think that these effects happen accidentally ? Why do you think that 888 have not fixed this ?

What on earth does that mean ?

First thanks for the awesome response. Yeah I edited the coinflip post alil late lol. Changed it already. Second, I am honestly considering trying to research the costs, although most I will never actually be able to find out(ex. bribes) unless I am in their shoes.

Kindof had an aha moment. No amount of data will ever truly be large enough if collected from just one account to say if it is truly variance or not. If we could datamine every single hand from the poker sites' databases and compute every last detail as to the percentages that have occurred vs what should have occurred than this debate would be over.... Or whoever comes up with that solution would be silenced, through bribes or other means....(maybe killed). Too much money is on the line.

Taken IQ tests in highschool. Taken some online lol. I read the IQ thread on here lol.

Some are greedy for sure.

But I dont believe greed always correlates with success.

For example, there are people that work at Mcdonalds for a living that are very greedy and self centered, and there are financially successful people that are very empathetic and charitable.

Successful people can be motivated by many different factors.

Also, there are other things to consider with regards to your theory that every company will cheat to make money because people are greedy.

One is that being greedy could very well be a reason not to steal. In the casino world, providing a fair game and a healthy safe gaming environment is essential to making the most money.

This isnt some back room banking deal in the shadows of the night type of business. The output of their deal is instantly in real time public knowledge. We as a poker community have access to see every card they deal.

If they are greedy and love making millions of dollars and want to make millions more then why would they lose all of that to cheat AlmostShark out of winning a freeroll or to choose winners and losers at BadBeats NL2 tables. This is why even shady greedy struggling companies never rig the deal. When they do steal they tend to do it behind closed doors where no one can see accessing player funds that should always be segregated or something of that sort as they know a faulty deal will stop the money from coming in immediately because there will be no cover.


Having said all of that, the main reason your theory is misguided is because it is just that, a theory.

Poker players tend to be very analytic and reasonable. The game itself draws this type of personality and to become good at the game this must be nurtured even more.

We as a community expect proof behind accusations of cheating.

We dont find the crying and ranting of a disgruntled losing poker player as evidence.

We have uncovered and caught hundreds of cheaters in this forum, and each time is was the evidence that caught them. The hands are in effect mathematics. The math is absolute. It never lies.

If a cheating RNG or any other scam does get uncovered, it will be us that uncover it with math, just like it always. People running around thinking with their emotions and their imagination will be as useless in helping us then as they are in proving any rigged RNGs in this thread now.

Would you ever actually know if proof was found? I think people get silenced over proof of multibillion dollar scandals.

Never said it was my theory every company would cheat to make money. Just my theory that it is likely.

Is poker not a game where we have to deduce our decisions? Do we really ever have proof? Unless of course we are superusers.. I make educated guesses all day everyday while combining my situational analyses with simple math.

Not saying I have proof. I don't. I am not crying, I am a winning player. Math doesn't lie sometimes it is misinterpreted.

Maybe I am no help to solving this riddle, but I like to think I shed new light through an alternative perspective.

That is wrong. A single database can be enough.

Standard Deviation grows with the square root of sample size. So, for every rig is a sample size that suffices to prove it, and millions of hands some people (also from microstakes) have in their databases are enough to prove any significant rig.

Basically every riggie itt claimed to have observed the rig they believe in with their own eyes. On the other hand, when they look at their stats they claim the rig was too subtle to be found doing a statistical analysis.

I sincerely hope I don't have to explain to you how absurd is is to believe both statements can be true at the same time.

I believe no one has the balls or brains or money to create a computer program that will break down every single percentage of outcomes that has occurred as to what outcomes should occur over the 100s of billions of hands of online poker that has taken place. You would also probably need to steal the full databases of hands from the companies as I doubt they would ever truly release them, at least accurately.

I should of said an argument could be made that no amount of hands is ever enough. My bad yo lol. Good point on the std deviations but you technically could be dealt pp aa a bajillion quadrillion times in a row. Technically.

I so desperately want to have proof that online poker isn't rigged.

^^impossible. Prove to me that you never kicked an old Lady in the butt.

The fact that hundreds of riggies failed to provide proof is pretty great evidence for the absence of a rig though.

The absence of proof is not proof. If so proove it. lol

I think 99% of "riggies"(ppl who think it is rigged) are forrest gump status.

^^ (forgot to do that) it is evidence, not great. I am going through entire thread for as long as I can endure. 1% of the way done now.

This is great because it basically defines most riggies in this thread.

You would accept your useless gut feeling as evidence but would reject AA getting dealt a bajillion quadrillion times in a row as being irrelevant if it didnt match your gut feeling and the results you wanted.

The reality is that it is very easy to determine whether something is extremely out the the norm statistically and it doesnt take a imaginary sum of hands to do it.

Good luck trying to read this entire thread at once btw.

You must be very masochistic.

:
Seems about right.

Absolutely, completely, and indisputably false.

But there's absolutely nothing new to this thread in what you're saying, and your perspective is very, very far from alternative.

I'd like you to have it too - never going to happen, though.

For many of us, absence of proof of a rig is fairly convincing; for others that isn't enough. For them, perceived motive and patterns are all the "evidence" they need.

There is an edit button for a reason.