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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:12 AM   #6401
qpw
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
QPW, you got picked on a lot in highschool, didn't you?
Actually, no.

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
Does anyone else here see what this guy does?? He just responds to anything and everything with whatever he can come up with.
As opposed to the normal way of responding which would be what?

Whatever you can't come up with?

How would that work?

Quote:
Obviously he knows what I meant when I said "evidence" but he tip-toes over it because he doesn't have an answer for it.
Erm, you were the one who needed the term 'evidence' explained to him.

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That's the last response you get from me QPW
Is that a promise?

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you are a tool
If there was ever a more perfect example of a pot calling a kettle black ...
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:16 AM   #6402
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

congratulations, you have succeeded at bsing your way through answering my question. you have been arguiing this topic for about 4 months now on and off and you obviously don't even know what you were arguiing about the whole time. all i asked of you was how you classified the term EVIDENCE in this topic? What type of evidence would you like to see?

And your response was the definition of the word evidence. I then repeated the question and you responded with:
Quote:
Erm, you were the one who needed the term 'evidence' explained to him.
??? GG man
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:18 AM   #6403
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

I cant believe I read this whole ****ing thread
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:23 AM   #6404
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

OK, R4R, since you are clearly too stupid to work this out for yourself:

What we need from you is two things:

1) A statement of exactly what you believe has been done to rig the deal.

2) A contiguous sample of your hand histories clearly showing the date, time, screenname and site. About 20,000 hands should suffice.

Once we have these we can perform an analysis to determine if what you allege (e.g. 'every time I get x someone else beats it with y on the river').

If that analysis shows up any anomallies we would then purchase a set of HH's that include those you supplied from one of the companies that supplies such things.

If your supplied HH's match the purchased ones the information would be published and the analysies would be checked and repeated by others and some very difficult question asked of the site in question which would doubtless lose a very large proportion of its customer base.

So, there you have it.

The solution to your problem lies in your own hands (or the hands of any other rigtard): Simply provide a contiguous sample of 20,000 of you hands together with a statement of what you believe is wrong and you will have taken the first step to blowing the lid on the corruption that is online poker - assuming, of course, that your case has any merit.
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:26 AM   #6405
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
That's the last response you get from me QPW
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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
Snip of R4R showing what an honourable chap he is by breaking his word and responding to me mere minutes saying he would never do so again.
Have a nice day.
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:31 AM   #6406
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Does anyone else here see what this guy does?? He just responds to anything and everything with whatever he can come up with. Obviously he knows what I meant when I said "evidence" but he tip-toes over it because he doesn't have an answer for it. What a joke.. That's the last response you get from me QPW, you are a tool
Round I'll help you. Since I was once a rigged one and have been proven otherwise. Q will be more than happy to help if you have anything that can be used to prove sites are rigged. That includes hand history's, data etc. Asking for what proof you need means nothing. If you have something, even if it turns out to be nothing, at least you started with something. Not just a theory with out facts.
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:41 AM   #6407
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

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Originally Posted by theOwnererr View Post
I find that when you multi-table, say 2-6 tables that you will get the same hand on two tables or maybe all tables. I have seen pocket 88's on all 3 tables at once, Q10 (same suits) on 2 tables. Same hole cards, same flops on 2 different tables where every card is same except one.
It would be interesting to see if someone put together some long term statistics about a site with the RNG and how truly random it is.

I have heard stories of people who recorded every hand and flop, then supposedly figured out the "system".
Are you serious? Did you really notice that?! OMG! Shooooot me in the head, PLEASE!

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Originally Posted by BgsaPnaples View Post
I cant believe I read this whole ****ing thread
Me too.

Summary/Conclusion of this thread:
People who think online poker is rigged are brainless.

Last edited by LnBK; 07-08-2009 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 07-08-2009, 06:59 AM   #6408
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

This thread has gone the way I expected to given the general attitude on these forums. As you can see from my first post, I was very correct to predict the ******ed attitudes of the ignorant, and by ignorant I mean those who take every word that Pokerstars and FTP throw at you. So they had their RNG audited by company xyz and company xyz decided it was fair, case closed? Please.

I am a compsci graduate, I have done many many hours of complex multithreaded coding and I assure you that if these guys wanted to make the RNG slightly less random, or skew the outcomes of pots in certain circumstances they would be able to. And they would be able to get away with it and pass these "audits". Similarly, there is a also a good chance of an unintentional error in the programming of the RNG being present, which could also compromise the integrity of poker "randomness". I'm talking about something like a threading issue whereby I get dealt the exact same cards and suit in the exact same order at the exact same time when 2 tables i'm on begin the deal within a close enough time period.

Can I refer you guys to the race condition that was uncovered on UB where Phil Hellmuth lost but was shipped the pot due to the fact that a showdown and a connection drop for the winning player occurred within a close enough time period. Multithreaded progamming is very very complex and it is very very easy to make a "mistake" that goes "un-noticed".

Again I reiterate, I'm not here to say online poker is rigged because I lost a big pot on the FT bubble. All I am suggesting, or rather asking for help with is to do a proper statistical study. Similar to what happened when people thought they were being cheated on UB by Hamilton et al. Go and read that thread. The first few pages are the same sort of vibe, ignorants with their sarcasm about rigged online poker. Look at the outcome.
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Old 07-08-2009, 07:30 AM   #6409
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Who the hell cares if youre a comp graduate. Go get the data then, do a hypothesis test etc and come back here with the results. Its not ****ing rocket science.
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Old 07-08-2009, 08:55 AM   #6410
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

anyone else think it's funny how stevie-boy keeps making references to High School?
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:09 AM   #6411
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

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Originally Posted by The_Jeebus View Post
Who the hell cares if youre a comp graduate. Go get the data then, do a hypothesis test etc and come back here with the results. Its not ****ing rocket science.
Thanks for your input moron. Your mother must have molested you.
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:12 AM   #6412
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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anyone else think it's funny how stevie-boy keeps making references to High School?
Not really.

It's quite natural to reference things to your own normal environment.

Don't know why he doesn't mention his mum and dad more. Od course they probably keep him on a tight rein when he doesn't sneak onto his dad's computer to troll on here.
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:35 AM   #6413
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

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Thanks for your input moron. Your mother must have molested you.
That's a logical conclusion.
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:53 AM   #6414
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

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That's a logical conclusion.
Actually, based on the fabric of his post, I feel that it is.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:00 AM   #6415
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

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Originally Posted by fizix87 View Post
Good post OP, you know your on to something when heroes like salesbeast are backing you up
Obv ur bein sarcy, but great book in your av.

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Originally Posted by ssnyc View Post
more complex math problems for OP to work on

No this one's actually pretty easy and I certainly don't need an equation for it ;p

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Originally Posted by kk405 View Post
regardless of the outcome of OP's idea, analysis, and or the help he might get in this thread, this is an interesting exercise... and I just hope some with strong statistical background and access to large sample sizes on Stars tourneys can help him out...leave the flaming for NVG
Thank you, this is actually what I'm after. A few pointers and get the ball rolling. Obviously the sample sizes is the factor that i envisage giving me the most trouble. Sure I can get all hands I have played, but that's not going to be enough.

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Originally Posted by DogFace View Post
I've played a ton of 4.4/180 tourneys and noticed the same phenomenon. Miracle cards seem to come for the big stacks way more often than they should. Maybe I've only noticed this because brutal suckouts are so much more memorable than standard outcomes, but it's definitely something I've noticed.

I think Stars has a clear incentive to rig the games. Faster bustousts = fewer tables running = fewer resources spent. More importantly, the faster they bust people out of the games, the more likely it is that those people will buy in for another tourney. Remember, Stars doesn't make a dime from non-rebuy tourneys once the entry fees are locked in. So the only way they can get more of your money when you're playing tourneys is if they get you off the tables as quickly as possible. I think that's why they flood us with turbos. More $$$ for them.

On the flipside, Stars is one of the top two brands in the online poker business. They have a reputation to uphold. If it came out that their site was rigged, business would plummet. So while I think it's easy to see how certain types of rigging would be profitable for them in the short term, I don't know that those considerations would outweigh the potential calamity of a cheating scandal. It might be in their best interest to keep the games legit even though they could make more money by rigging the deck.

Either way, I would be very interested in seeing the results of a study on this topic. I think the major factors you'd have to look at are the hand strength, the relative stack sizes, and maybe the ROI of the players involved. One of my other hunches is that Stars might weight the deck for losing players, allowing them to tread water on the site a little longer than they should.
Thank you for this reply, good to see some people actually put intelligent thought into their responses. You raise some very good points. I actually remember the very very first time I deposited on pokerstars years and years ago as a complete and utter donk who had never really played poker before. At the time they had a funky bonus deposit match thing but you couldnt cash out until you had hit a certain level of amount wagered... well I had an unbelievable run and made quite a bit of money, and this made me think I was a good player. It all went before I was able to cash it out, and therefore I redeposited to try and win again... which would have been exactly what they wanted right?

Yes they have a reputation to uphold and yes the consequences would be disastorous for them. This is a solid point and a solid argument as to why they wouldn't try and get up to anything dodgy. At the same time, corporations are scum who are only interested in making money. As I have previously said it is very possible for them to tweak RNGs or whatever other code very very slightly, so as to be undetectable by "audits" or what have you. Even if this only generated an additional 0.01% premium on rakes (by busting ppl so that they re-register), that would amount to a considerable sum over a period of time. I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS DEFINATELY HAPPENING. I'm saying it's a possibility that everyone should be aware of and not just dismiss with an assumption and absolutely zero actual knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by axioma View Post
How is this not locked / deleted already?
Moron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derbos View Post
serious post:

bad bigstacks like to gamble because they can and bad shortstacks are more often too tight than too lose, thus more situations occur where the bigstack is behind and has to suck out.
A very good point for the argument against. You may well be right. But I think that it happens too much to be attributed to variance.

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Originally Posted by BlunderCity View Post
We've all noticed it, big hands pitted against each other and the coinflips the shortstacks never seem to win in MTTs.

We just have different conclusions as to why we are noticing this.

I read these threads because they have entertainment value but there's never anything to learn from them. In the absence of any serious independent statistical study, no one is EVER coming up with a killer argument, just opinions (and some of them are quite hilarious).

Of course I can't take that against the posters who think online poker isn't rigged, it's not up to us to prove it isn't, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.

But I think most of the replies are (again) abusing the spirit of the thread. OP's request for an independent study is in fact very reasonable but since it mentions online poker being rigged, he's immediately branded a rigtard.

It's dangerous when improbable things are instantly dismissed!

I don't think online poker is rigged because I choose not to believe it is rigged. But I can't prove that!! I live in the UK and I think general elections are not rigged. But I can't prove that either.

On the balance of probabilities, I choose to believe that online poker isn't rigged and that UK general elections are free and fair. This is a good enough test for me personally.

But from a regulatory point of view, this isn't good enough. Online poker is a product on display for the general public, all reasonable allegations should be seriously investigated and the ground tested.
Thanks for your post, especially your one liner regarding dismissal of improbable occurrences. This is exactly what tilts me about ppl, complete ignorance. I'm going to say it again - UB/Hamilton scandal.

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Originally Posted by bef99hwk View Post
Cuz that audit is ******ed...
it just shows that there are the right flushes, str8s, etc. But what bout the times ur 90%+ fav on flop and they runner a flush??? and that happens two mtts in a row? That doesn't explain anything bout rigged dynamics on certain inflection points.
Great point from someone who clearly understands what I'm talking about. I don't care that on Pokerstars you will hit your flush the correct ~35% of the time after the flop assuming you have 4 flush cards on the flop. This isn't the point. The last sentence here is key, rigged dynamics on certain inflection points.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:17 AM   #6416
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Dude youre a ****ing moron trying to make a debate out of something that simply isnt debatable. As I said before, it just boils down to hypothesis testing whatever you think is rigged. Do that instead of all this bs debate.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:05 AM   #6417
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

WHERE IS YOUR *&^%ING DATA?

This is quickly becoming a 5-star thread, IMO.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:26 AM   #6418
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

This is what I need the help with... how can I get a statistically significant sample? I mean I am not looking at what a normal audit would look at, I want to look at specific situations.

For example, I wanted to make a start by looking at a good sample of AIPF hands in turbo sng's (particularly stars 2.2, 7.7 and 12 180s), but where the field size is down to 40 or lower (approx 2x bubble size).

I don't want to look at the hands for the rest of the tournament. Like myself and others have said this is a situation specific issue.

So how can I get that data? You tell me, I'll do the analysis.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:27 AM   #6419
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

[ ] poker is dead
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:38 PM   #6420
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Rigtard threads are so ****ing annoying, just report this bull**** and get it moved to Internet Poker.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:50 PM   #6421
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

I love the way that the people who think poker is rigged are the ones calling those that don't ignorant.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:29 PM   #6422
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Can I refer you guys to the race condition that was uncovered on UB where Phil Hellmuth lost but was shipped the pot due to the fact that a showdown and a connection drop for the winning player occurred within a close enough time period. Multithreaded progamming is very very complex and it is very very easy to make a "mistake" that goes "un-noticed".
This^


Quote:
I love the way that the people who think poker is rigged are the ones calling those that don't ignorant
Yes because there is no way to prove it is NOT rigged. So how can you be so sure it's not rigged, please, explain???

The reason we cannot yet concretely prove it is rigged is because the average Joe does not have the resources to obtain the data. In order for evidence to be credible, we would need atleast a hundred million hand histories and be able to prove the theory of "timing" (well atleast that's what I believe).

ONE MORE QUESTION:

Do you really think if these sites were rigged that their programmer would make it so easy to be detected.. I mean, come on now. Everyone keeps yelling evidence!evidence!evidence! because they can't have any logical discussions and don't realize the reason for the inability to collect such evidence.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:30 PM   #6423
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I have been playing pretty seriously for the last 3 months on Stars and FT.

Stars seems the worst for the 1 card suckouts. If you are short stacked and all in I have lost count the amount of times I have said to my flat mate the cards that will come out when I call the all in. I am ahead maybe 75% of the time aswell.

It just seems that Stars wants the tourney over and done with so you get pissed off and immediately register for another tourney so you are paying rake quicker than if you had one. Chasing is part of a gamblers make up and if they are sure that they are getting the money in ahead and feel hard done by then they will quickly try and get that money back.

I understand bad beats are part of the game, of course I do but is it part of the game to always give the short stack the bad beat?

I'm still beating the games though so I am not going to stop playing but I feel that I should have been making more money than I have. I absolutely kill live poker whenever my casino does tourneys or cash games yet struggle to get as good a win rate online despite playing more games which should increase my win %.

I guess I am just pissed off and maybe looking for things which aren't there. I dunno.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:32 PM   #6424
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Last edited by Markusgc; 07-08-2009 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:35 PM   #6425
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by archie1st View Post
I have been playing pretty seriously for the last 3 months on Stars and FT.
three WHOLE months?

but seriously...
Quote:
I guess I am just pissed off and maybe looking for things which aren't there. I dunno.
this.

if you keep at it, bad beats will become so ordinary you won't dwell on them for an extra minute.
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