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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:49 PM   #6301
axioma
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

How is this not locked / deleted already?
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:50 PM   #6302
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

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Originally Posted by NHFunkii View Post
there are not nearly enough pictures in this thread
I did my part
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:56 PM   #6303
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

How bout u do all of online poker...seeing as how I just lost to huge losing player when i'm 99.6% favorite after the flop. Oh btw, I was a shorter stack and this was ftp...std.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:57 PM   #6304
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

serious post:

bad bigstacks like to gamble because they can and bad shortstacks are more often too tight than too lose, thus more situations occur where the bigstack is behind and has to suck out.
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:00 PM   #6305
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theOwnererr View Post

I have heard stories of people who recorded every hand and flop, then supposedly figured out the "system".
I'm still laughing at this one....priceless!
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:09 PM   #6306
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyromantha View Post
Again your post does not address what the other person wrote. Are you being deliberately dense or something?

Markus wrote that *YOU* do not get to audit their operation, not that the operation is not audited by *SOMEONE*
I mean really, talk about pot/kettle/black. Here's the edited version of my quote he responds to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
I'm sorry, are you under the impression that YOU get to inspect every corner of their operation? Like they're gonna just let ya dig around their proprietary software because you're not completely convinced they're running an honest game ... but that's never gonna happen, at Stars
of course he left out this part...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
but that's never gonna happen, at Stars or even your local grocery store.
making a point which Pyro expands upon further with his bank/toilet paper/tour of the safe analogy.

but after twisting my words, he gives this alarmist reply...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well that is shame and indicates a completely unregulated, misleading and dishonest operation.
misleading and dishonest operation? how about propaganda? (but he has no agenda to push, right....) I also contend that the blatant exaggeration ("completely unregulated" ?!?!? please...) is no better than complete fiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
As you probably know in other segments of our economy regulation is not unknown concept, in fact it is the main criteria of operation and the burden of proof indeed on the operators and not on consumers. For example, in order to fully comply with standards (it called PCI DSS) payment card processor entities must dig around their proprietary software, just like brick and mortar casinos must inspect every corner of their operation in order to prove that they are in full compliance with regulations. Usually this exercise is manifested in system audit and there are audit reports available.
There is regulation, links to the checks and balances in place by the Isle of Man have been shared several times, as well as decent explanations of what they check for. But there is no reason for every bit of information discovered by their audits (or whatever you want to call it - inspection, examination, etc.) to be made public. You can't even find the references on PokerStars' site - what makes you think you'd be able to learn more from an unedited and thorough report? They meet the requirements to be permitted to run their business with the blessing of the Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission.

If that's not satisfactory to you, FIND A SITE WHICH IS SANCTIONED BY A BODY YOU ARE HAPPY WITH. IF THERE ISN'T ONE.... DON'T PLAY ONLINE POKER. It's that simple. There's no part of the Magna Carta, U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter which guarantees the sovereign right to all citizens of the Planet Earth to play poker at a site which is certified to your standards. Most people are happy with the job being done. If you're not, express your displeasure by not spending your money there.
Quote:
Why exactly PS is unable to provide full system audit reports since started its operation and hiding behind the tiny Isle of Man gaming authority by creating marketing clouds about Cigital RNG audit which cover only a tiny segment of their operation? If you know let us now.
This is more pure ******ation. They are able to but it wouldn't make them more reliable if a report of minute technical details were made available for your reading pleasure. You can barely read this thread, are you seriously trying to say that you'd be able to find holes in their operation if you had such information in your hand?
Quote:
It is hilarious and quite bizarre that you think PokerStars should not dig around their proprietary software as such digging is too much hassle ... the whole purpose of the Isle of Man regulation which PS proudly refers is to dig around their proprietary software in order to ensure system integrity.
no, the whole purpose is they dig around so you don't have to.
Quote:
I am glad it has been established finally in this thread, that PS is not digging around and full system audit is unknown concept at the multi billion dollar gambling enterprise.
damn, are you now saying that the Isle of Man isn't doing these audits at all? Just because you, some random Rigtard, don't get to look at the notes they took it means it didn't happen? You're worse than most in this regard, most Rigtards say things like "I have a feeling." You come to insane conclusions or just make stuff up and present it as fact. This is a prime example of this habit of yours.

So, we get it - you want more regulation. Apparently enough people are happy with the level they are currently regulated to keep playing there. You can say a prayer for all the suckers who keep doing so, but in the end, a few (and yeah, it really is only a handful of Hardcore Rigtards, and several are just new accounts by old, banned fanatics) paranoid losers aren't going to change a large, successful company with tens (hundreds?) of thousands of satisfied customers OR an entire industry's policies with your hunches and patterns and "something just doesn't feel right."

If there was a problem, it would've been found by players by now. But in the case that one was (which I agree could happen) then the players/customers might demand stricter control. However, the only ones screaming for it now are those who have delusion assessments of their skills and unreasonable expectations of success with their limited tools.

This site (2+2) is full of poker pros making a living at these allegedly crooked sites and they discuss ways to improve their play by taking personal responsibility and working hard to get the desired results with NO MENTION OF HOW THEY'RE MANIPULATING THE SOFTWARE OR GETTING ANY OTHER PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT is testament to the fact that skill is the determining factor of success. 2+2 isn't full of shills who make thousands of strategy posts a week just to give the impression winners are continually increasing their proficiency while truly reaping the benefits of "Goldern (sic) Accounts." They're real people getting better so they can make more money.

And ya know what? The poker sites don't care who wins the money - as long as they're getting their cut.

So, if you have something besides conjecture, half-truths and falsehoods to present in order to inspire the masses to rise up and demand closer examination of online poker, now would be a good time to share it. If you don't, then you are just a guy on the corner with a sandwich board and a bullhorn shouting nonsense. And it's kinda sad you don't know that. Kinda really sad.
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:09 PM   #6307
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Unit View Post

I have become increasingly aware of a trend on Pokerstars whereby a player with a larger stack is favoured over a player with a smaller stack, especially when AIPF. I do not believe that I am noticing this due to selective memory.
You dont have to believe it but that's what it is. Try playing satellites, or making a final table bubble. In a situation where you WANT people to bust it often seems like its taking a lot longer

Plus a lot of people wait so long to push that the big blind should call with any two cards and since that player is tight he probably is going to have a better hand. But if youre playing correctly you should be doing a lot more of your sucking out as a short stack
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:16 PM   #6308
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

They are constantly upgrading the client software these days, why can't they just do a RNG overhual/upgrade just to make sure its running ok.
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:23 PM   #6309
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Re: PS FT people who want to start getting together online to test these sites ourselves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars View Post
PS and FT and Bodog deserve to be tested and if we get enough people together with proven bad variance we can start to show that things are skewed a certain direction.
yeah, that's what we've been screaming. if you get your data together and test it you might prove "bad variance" and other evil conspiracies.

we'll be here waiting for you and your Rigtard Army to do exactly that.

or you could look over the work spade and Indiana have done already and is still being refined.

either way, that's a splendid idea. now you actually have to get all those hand histories from your buddies who didn't know they could store them on their hard drives and can't be bothered to email the sites and request them since they'll only doctor them up to remove all suspicious data.

but when you have them, someone will help you determine if they're "skewed a certain direction." then, when it's shown they aren't, you guys can come up with some more excuses like "timing" and "rigged in undetectable ways" to explain why, even with all the proof one would need to make this determination, the results are faulty.

good luck with that!
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:30 PM   #6310
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Unit View Post
Hi guys,
If you have constructive comments then I do want to hear them... have you noticed this? Do you think I'm just imagining it?
We've all noticed it, big hands pitted against each other and the coinflips the shortstacks never seem to win in MTTs.

We just have different conclusions as to why we are noticing this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_W0lf View Post
I think you want the Internet Poker Forum... they are familiar with your claims.. in fact there is an entire thread for what you are talking about here... gl.. you'll need it.
I think this thread is in MTT Community because it specifically deals with observations in multi-table tournaments and the elimination of shorted stacks, not that online poker is rigged in general.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ontario_Tory View Post
link to the "poker is rigged" thread is definitely where you'll get the information on how to do your analysis.
Unfortunately not, there are NEVER any hard facts in these thread only players flaming the rigtards.

I read these threads because they have entertainment value but there's never anything to learn from them. In the absence of any serious independent statistical study, no one is EVER coming up with a killer argument, just opinions (and some of them are quite hilarious).

Of course I can't take that against the posters who think online poker isn't rigged, it's not up to us to prove it isn't, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.


But I think most of the replies are (again) abusing the spirit of the thread. OP's request for an independent study is in fact very reasonable but since it mentions online poker being rigged, he's immediately branded a rigtard.

It's dangerous when improbable things are instantly dismissed!

I don't think online poker is rigged because I choose not to believe it is rigged. But I can't prove that!! I live in the UK and I think general elections are not rigged. But I can't prove that either.

On the balance of probabilities, I choose to believe that online poker isn't rigged and that UK general elections are free and fair. This is a good enough test for me personally.

But from a regulatory point of view, this isn't good enough. Online poker is a product on display for the general public, all reasonable allegations should be seriously investigated and the ground tested.
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:32 PM   #6311
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

If pokerstars wasnt rigged id be a winning MTT player 100%
I can now sleep at night knowing that im actually really good even tho i have a gazillion -ROI. If it wasnt rigged id be making FT after FT.
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:33 PM   #6312
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Wow, you guys have been busy today haven't you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Having said that, only 1-2 senior level software engineers needs to be involved with such rigged implementation. Being an imaginative software engineer, I can certainly imagine a system where not even the senior who responsible for the data layer needs to be involved, and the rigged code segment can be isolated to the software module that implements the business logic of card distribution and player allocation to tables.
Sorry, why are these 1 or 2 sotware engineers illegally rigging the software of their employers?
Have they calculated how much extra money this would generate?
Did they do these calculations in their own time or on company time without anybody noticing?
Do they have the statistal and mathematical knowledge to fully assess if they are likely to get caught?
Have they assessed the risks? Both personal and company liability?
How do they explain the sudden increase in profits when they switch on the 'dodgy' code?
Do they get any reward for this criminal activity even though nobody knows about it?
Do they quickly do a code switcheroo if they leave their job, without anybody noticing the HUGE inevitable drop in profits when they do?
I have always assumed there is a lot of movement of software engineers between jobs so wouldnt there need to be multiple individuals involved (maybe 1 at a time but several at every site over the years)?
Are you going to answer any of the questions with your software engineering background?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire View Post
Shave 1% of all regs equity over to fish - and rebalance the equity inequities (har har) between regs. That's almost certainly hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions. What statistical artifacts would there be?
You are by far the most intelligent poster to fall on the darkside so your rigtard brethren should embrace your contributions but I'm not sure this makes sense. I would love to see your calculations regarding additional profits, even if you can't be bothered to go into any depth on detectability and in what situations this equity is stolen and which it is (still negatively)redistributed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, since I strongly believe PS operation is dishonest, fraudulent ... I call them criminals. ...they are just money collector fraudsters hiding behind the tiny Isle of Man gaming authority wihout proving their honesty and they are not in the league of legitimate and honest businesses.
And I call you a disgusting little paedophile who won't prove his innocence. (well, I do on the internet where you can apparently say what you like, as you continue to enjoy doing ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
No it is not. You know nothing about software engineering that’s why you are speculating on the issue and making incorrect assumptions.

As I said earlier in my previous post, maximum 2-3 senior level software/system engineers would need to be involved to handle the rigged code segments and its deployments and certainly not thousand of peoples as you have assumed.
You said 1-2 actually so you have just fabricated another 50% of people for no reason. Just imagine how many extra people would need to be involved in the real world, rather than your imagination where practiclities don't seem to be a consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
The 5-6 ranting site defender here are interested in maintaining the status quo that allows a possible rigged operation instead of having interest in a transparent operation that opened to public scrutiny. They must be shills and not poker players - there is no other rational explanation for their ignorance about the necessity of transparent online gaming.

The handful site defender shills here are scared to death and take it as a personal offence if someone dare to ask evidence from sites that their operation is indeed honest as they claim it in the first place. Their reactions were maniac, bizarre and childish yesterday when I was dare asking from PS employee Josem evidences about the integrity of PS here. I wonder why?
How many times do you have to be told that we don't take offence at you asking for evidence? We take offence at morons making wild accusations because they don't have evidence. Please e-mail sites, governments, regulatory boards, software engineers, staisticians and anybody else who you can think of to pressure for the information you want. I would applaud your efforts and eagrely await your findings but please stop make baseless accusations as if you "know" anything. You don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
So where are the full audit reports that proves that not only the Isle of Man but the London based and foreign based business continuity servers are audited? Let us know if you are aware such resources are available.
You forgot to say tiny Isle of Man as you normally do, to make your accusations seem more plausible.


By the way, I'm not picking on you PokErasmus, I just multiquoted a load of stupidity as I flicked through the pages of bickering and it turned out that most of it was yours.
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:42 PM   #6313
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Doesn't have to be 'rigged' per se for you to get cheated. I think the sites are not 'rigged' per se...but I'm about 99.99999999% sure that some cheating goes on. IMO, there's just too much incentive for the sites to remain 'fair' and there's just too much incentive to expect people to not cheat. What the extent of the cheating is and what is even possible...I dunno.
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:45 PM   #6314
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theOwnererr View Post

I have heard stories of people who recorded every hand and flop, then supposedly figured out the "system".

www.themavenvt.com amirite?
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:55 PM   #6315
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
I mean really, talk about pot/kettle/black. Here's the edited version of my quote he responds to:

of course he left out this part...
Yeah, the partial quoting to leave out context on his part is really kind of scummy, and sort of sad if he actually thinks no one will notice that not so clever form of lying.

Pretty much ends any way to have a chat, even a tongue in cheek one if someone is going to start doing that. I put him on ignore now (second guy for that , K guy is first).

Messing around with paranoid guys is fun, but once they start breaking the rules of fun chat then why bother. Most riggedologists follow those basic rules. When someone does not then likely you have a zealot on your hand (like that Real Deal guy was in the day) and they are never fun to talk to since they will just outright lie all the time about everything, even something they said 2 posts earlier.

The K guy is best left alone because he is basically a 4 year old throwing a tantrum at times. This guy is best left alone to enjoy his own company and his view of the world (like the Real Deal guy was). Those of you that want to continue chatting with him, good luck. It's pointless based on his recent posts and the way he carries on a conversation, same reason I tuned out real deal guy way before many of the other proponents back then

All the best!
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:56 PM   #6316
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Late...Big Stacks call shorties light...therefore they are behind more...therefore you should see more suckouts as a total and if might look rigged.

As shorties losing knocks you out, so you notice it more.

Just cause a pushup bra make her boobs look bigger, doesn't mean they are. No matter how much you want it.
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:56 PM   #6317
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyChip View Post
Doesn't have to be 'rigged' per se for you to get cheated. I think the sites are not 'rigged' per se...but I'm about 99.99999999% sure that some cheating goes on. IMO, there's just too much incentive for the sites to remain 'fair' and there's just too much incentive to expect people to not cheat. What the extent of the cheating is and what is even possible...I dunno.
This thread isn't discussing cheating, it relates to the RNG system producing an allegedly high rate of short stack eliminations in MTTs for the purpose of rolling out tournaments at a quicker pace and generate more rake for the poker room.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:11 PM   #6318
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlunderCity View Post
I think this thread is in MTT Community because it specifically deals with observations in multi-table tournaments and the elimination of shorted stacks, not that online poker is rigged in general.
Must be you haven't read through the thread in internet poker? There are "observations" of all sorts... short stacks always win.. big stacks always win... short stacks win more near the bubble.. big stacks win near the bubble.. cashout curses.. deposit boomswitches.. you name it, it's probably been in there... and still, no proof of anything... weird
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:14 PM   #6319
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

They are popping up in mtt community now too https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...-study-527468/
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:15 PM   #6320
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

More short stack evidence...

Table '177591811 1' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: xxxxxx (2310 in chips)
Seat 2: salesbeast (690 in chips)
xx: posts small blind 10
salesbeast: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to salesbeast [Ac As]
xxx: calls 10
salesbeast: raises 40 to 60
xxx: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [2c 3d Ad]
salesbeast: bets 40
xxxxx: raises 140 to 180
salesbeast: raises 140 to 320
xxx: raises 1930 to 2250 and is all-in
salesbeast: calls 310 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1620) returned to xxxx
*** TURN *** [2c 3d Ad] [Tc]
salesbeast said, "lmao"
*** RIVER *** [2c 3d Ad Tc] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
salesbeast: shows [Ac As] (three of a kind, Aces)
xxxx: shows [5h 4h] (a straight, Ace to Five)
xxxx.Becks collected 1380 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1380 | Rake 0
Board [2c 3d Ad Tc 5s]
Seat 1: xxxxx (button) (small blind) showed [5h 4h] and won (1380) with a straight, Ace to Five
Seat 2: salesbeast (big blind) showed [Ac As] and lost with three of a kind, Aces
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:17 PM   #6321
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_W0lf View Post
They are popping up in mtt community now too https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...-study-527468/
I trust you can ridicule them adequately, but holler if there are any hi-jinks to get in on, ok?
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:18 PM   #6322
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_W0lf View Post
They are popping up in mtt community now too https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...-study-527468/
Thanks for the heads up but we all got a call on our shill hotlines from our respective employers already.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:23 PM   #6323
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theOwnererr View Post
I find that when you multi-table, say 2-6 tables that you will get the same hand on two tables or maybe all tables. I have seen pocket 88's on all 3 tables at once, Q10 (same suits) on 2 tables. Same hole cards, same flops on 2 different tables where every card is same except one.
It would be interesting to see if someone put together some long term statistics about a site with the RNG and how truly random it is.

I have heard stories of people who recorded every hand and flop, then supposedly figured out the "system".
A+ post, would read again.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:23 PM   #6324
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

^^
well-played, sir. well-played.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:25 PM   #6325
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Re: Joking aside - Pokerstars rigged study...

Quote:
Originally Posted by salesbeast View Post
More short stack evidence...
Are you literally a ******ed person?
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