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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:54 AM   #601
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
[url] Did you hear what the chairman of the PPA said?! "...where unscrupulous operators can easily, and without fear of prosecution, take advantage of consumers for their own gain."
So is a former Senator a rigtard? Are you guys gonna write him emails tellin him he's dillusional (sic) and a rigtard? just curious.
Do you understand the difference between "can" and "are" ?

No one denies it is possible. It's also possible Obama is the manchurian candidate programmed since birth but I doubt it. Evidence could change my mind in both cases.

You asked for civil discussion. Great start there.
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:55 AM   #602
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Negative...this was my point of the thread- "It's possible to do, therefore, it's worth looking into. Regulation and Taxing all the way! "
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:08 PM   #603
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Negative...this was my point of the thread- "It's possible to do, therefore, it's worth looking into.
Then there's not much more to discuss here. I think we all agree it's possible to do and worth looking into.

I keep an eye on my own stats frequently, and haven't seen anything unusual, but if I do, I'll show what I've got to folks who are qualified to analyze my data, but probably privately first, before I go off making accusations.

If the people who I trust to make these determinations think there is an anomaly which doesn't look right then I'll make my data public.

Cliff's:
tk and Mark agree on these points:
Is it possible? Yep!
Should we keep an eye out? Definitely!
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:08 PM   #604
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

You Know I was asked to present facts. Again biased....What could be so bad about regulating OP? Im at a loss for words here now....

Last edited by tk1133; 01-30-2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:10 PM   #605
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
Then there's not much more to discuss here. I think we all agree it's possible to do and worth looking into.

I keep an eye on my own stats frequently, and haven't seen anything unusual, but if I do, I'll show what I've got to folks who are qualified to analyze my data, but probably privately first, before I go off making accusations.

If the people who I trust to make these determinations think there is an anomaly which doesn't look right then I'll make my data public.

Cliff's:
tk and Mark agree on these points:
Is it possible? Yep!
Should we keep an eye out? Definitely!
Thank you! again i'm not saying it's rigged...i'm saying it's possible and should be looked into is all! this thread wasn't meant to say that OP is rigged....
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:12 PM   #606
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
What could be so bad about regulating OP? Im at a loss for words here now....
You know you're OP ITT, right?

I don't think anyone is against regulation, btw.

edit - I get it, "OP" means "Online Poker."
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:20 PM   #607
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Negative...this was my point of the thread- "It's possible to do, therefore, it's worth looking into. Regulation and Taxing all the way! "
Most folks are favor of having some U.S. regulators for U.S. players. Just curious, which of these government agencies do you consider to be untrustworthy and illegitimate, and why?

Isle of Man Government, Gambling Control Commission. (PokerStars and others)

States of Alderney Government, Gambling Control Commission (FullTilt, Party, and others)

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake, Gaming Commission (Full Tilt and others)

I don't know about the last one, but the first two appear to take their jobs very seriously, and they devote considerable resources to ensuring fair games.

Also curious, which of these software auditing agencies do you consider untrustworthy and illegitimate, and why?

Cigital Inc. (Poker Stars)

BMM International (Poker Stars)

Technical Systems Testing (Full Tilt)

They look pretty legit too.

Last edited by spadebidder; 01-30-2009 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:02 PM   #608
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Should have included this one in my second list. Same question as above.

Gaming Associates Pty Ltd (works with all the jurisdictions listed above to do regular testing and monitoring)
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:09 PM   #609
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by pokgen2 View Post
your really a smart guy.
you tell 'em, Alfred Einstein!

Check out this post from Golden Tee, it's by what I take to be their resident rigtard - he even refers to himself in the third person...
Quote:
Imagine is the most popular heel on the forum. Everybody loves to hear what he has to say! And it looks like Steven Meares is heading that way also
edit, pokgen2 is obviously GrinderR. Registered today and all his other posts are in the German Forum. He's persistent, I'll give him that!

GrinderR, do you and stephenmeares keep in touch?
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:22 PM   #610
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Maybe you have information I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokgen2 View Post
Quote:
Mohawk Council of Kahnawake, Gaming Commission (Full Tilt and others)
Seriously are you Insane ? This is the most corrupt organisation in the world.
Can you provide any links to citations or evidence please?


Quote:
Quote:
Isle of Man Government, Gambling Control Commission. (PokerStars and others)

States of Alderney Government, Gambling Control Commission
Yeah, pretty solid especially their background on Offshore islands which are known for money laundering for many organisations.
I don't think the British Channel Islands are known for money laundering, and I believe they have treaties in place with many countries to fight it, including the EU. Maybe you have them confused with some of the Caribbean islands that are actually known for this? Citations or evidence please.

Quote:
Quote:
Cigital Inc. (Poker Stars)

BMM International (Poker Stars)

Technical Systems Testing (Full Tilt)
again srsly ?

What do you think who owns parts of these companys.
And what do you think ps and ft would pay them, when they say: sry your software is manipulated and not legit.
You might want to look at them and their reputations before making a slanderous claim like that. The first two do projects for most of the largest governments in the world. Citations and evidence please?

Edit - work on your spelling and grammar too. Might make you more convincing.
.

Last edited by spadebidder; 01-30-2009 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:42 PM   #611
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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yes i can. Just check out the ub scandal closely and the 60 min report.

They are not a legit organisation, they do not respond to players even if they have evidence for cheating.
Their Chairman was also in the UB management, this is not legit.

They are scammers searching for the biggest profit, no matter how.

thx
I know that Joe Norton is an owner of Tokwiro/UB/AP and that they had a rogue employee who got caught cheating. They also may have been slow to take action, but ultimately did so. I'm not sure how this indicates the Gaming Commission is corrupt or that they would not do their regulatory job, particularly with other operators that they have no stake in. I'm also not sure how a cheating employee is related to rigged game sites. Perhaps you can elaborate. I'm not defending Kahnawake, I just want to follow the reasoning that leads to them being a corrupt regulatory agency.

Edit - they also hired Frank Catania, a respected attorney and former New Jersey gaming regulator, after they were bitten by scandal, to be their watchdog. Is he also corrupt?

Last edited by spadebidder; 01-30-2009 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:20 PM   #612
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Quote:
Yeah, pretty solid especially their background on Offshore islands which are known for money laundering for many organisations.
I don't think the British Channel Islands are known for money laundering, and I believe they have treaties in place with many countries to fight it, including the EU.
I did some research and there is some historical truth to your claim, but it looks like they've made a lot of progress in recent years to fight it.
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:44 PM   #613
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Holy Bizarro World!

Here's imagine!'s profile on the Golden Tee Forum.

If you look over his posts, he claims Golden Tee is rigged, that there are players who are "in the club," (same idea as "Golden Accounts") and complains that people are trying to silence him.

But he's fighting the good fight, 'til the bitter end!
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine!
I'll never keep my mouth shut buddy! You hear me? NEVER!!!!!!
The more I read, the more I'm convinced that there are rigged trolls going to any forum they can find and amusing themselves.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:27 PM   #614
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
edit, pokgen2 is obviously GrinderR. Registered today and all his other posts are in the German Forum. He's persistent, I'll give him that!
Yup
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:37 PM   #615
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
edit, pokgen2 is obviously GrinderR. Registered today and all his other posts are in the German Forum. He's persistent, I'll give him that!
Already banned and deleted, kinda messes up the thread when I'm debating with posts no longer there, but with him it really doesn't matter either.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:39 PM   #616
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Edit - the video has been made private now and can't be viewed.
That's my fault.

I went over to their site to discuss the merits of their "audit".

Pretty sure it's the first time I've ever been banned


I might have been a little harsh when he tried to blame the crapiness of the report on 2+2. (See, 'cuz he "emailed 2+2" (I'm still not sure what that means) for help preparing the report and because 2+2 never got back to him, it's 2+2's fault the "audit" sucks).

Their site is now on lockdown, you need to be a registered user just to read the forums. I guess they're afraid of 2+2 goons coming over breaking things and spray painting rude words on the wall.

lol.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:42 PM   #617
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

damn, son! you have any of it saved in cache or anything?

fwiw I'm still not banned on Golden Tee.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:44 PM   #618
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Cry Me A River View Post
Their site is now on lockdown, you need to be a registered user just to read the forums. I guess they're afraid of 2+2 goons coming over breaking things and spray painting rude words on the wall.

lol.
They also locked the video copy on youtube. Too embarrassing I guess.

Edit: and it looks like all the copies/links everywhere on the web now say this:




and a site that had a copy now shows:
This video does not exist. It either was deleted or flagged as innappropiate!


Looks like they are cleaning up fast everywhere.

Last edited by spadebidder; 01-30-2009 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:58 PM   #619
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Im not sure whats worse, the poster who starts a new rigged thread, or the ones that jump his **** complaining that someone started another one, yet the complainer's are all over everyone of these types of threads with multiple posts and constant bumping of them to top of the page. Good job Morons
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:08 PM   #620
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Im not sure whats worse, the poster who starts a new rigged thread, or the ones that jump his **** complaining that someone started another one, yet the complainer's are all over everyone of these types of threads with multiple posts and constant bumping of them to top of the page. Good job Morons
Nice bump.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:32 PM   #621
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
damn, son! you have any of it saved in cache or anything?
Yes, in case another rigtard turns up citing that audit as proof of anything:

Quote:
First and foremost we have acknowledged the flaws with this audit. In our defense, however, there are several factors you should keep in mind: We've done some damn good work for this industry. This project was not one of them, but we're ok with that because if you're going to take chances it's inevitable that you're gonna mess up at some point.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:58 PM   #622
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Cry Me A River View Post
Yes, in case another rigtard turns up citing that audit as proof of anything:
I signed up over there to view the forums and they have closed the thread and removed the video. They also deleted the posts by River.

J Todd is pretty defensive about the whole thing.

Quote:
Permalink Reply by JTodd 1 day ago
Send Message
Hello River...

You have actually picked a very bad time to dredge this all up again, as I am currently in the UK at the International Gaming Expo and have limited internet access and very little time to get into this... again. Let me just say a few things and them we can discuss them at length when I return in the middle of next week... if you wish.


First and foremost we have acknowledged the flaws with this audit. In our defense, however, there are several factors you should keep in mind:

1) We were repeatedly asked to do this audit by players and felt obligated to do so, even though we had never undertaken such a project before.

2) We sent several emails to 2+2 months before we did the audit, asking for your input and assistance, and they went unanswered. Even afterward we asked for assistance from 2+2 and still no one answered. It seems the only time we hear from 2+2 is when you want to be critical.

3) We asked the Wizard of Odds to assist us in this project, but he too refused to answer emails.

4) It was never our intention to say all online poker was rigged, just that the play at Full Tilt seemed to be out of the ordinary... and many people agree... that the software seems to want to generate action to build pots and increase revenue.

================================================== =======================

We had nothing to gain from pursuing this, and you really should go back and see the other 100 plus videos we've done... or other audits we've conducted... the conferences we speak at... the magazines we've been featured in... before you come in here with a predetermined opinion about us.

We've done some damn good work for this industry. This project was not one of them, but we're ok with that because if you're going to take chances it's inevitable that you're gonna mess up at some point. And if we mess up, we do so for the right reasons.

Had anyone at 2+2 or the Wizard of Odds been interested in helping us out when we asked things could have been handled differently. It seems, however, that it's easier to shred us for trying than to communicate and work together... even though APCW works just fine with everyone else.

We have professional relationships with the Poker Players Alliance, eCogra, the Kahnawake, NETeller, and major software providers. We are supported by major poker affiliate programs and contribute many positive things to this industry. If you would spend half as much time helping us and you just did tearing us to pieces we could actually help make a positive change for our industry.

Are you interested in that?

=============================

Permalink Reply by JTodd 1 day ago
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Obviously you are one of those arrogant, cannibalistic type we so frequently encountered at 2+2. I don't think any of you actually believed AP or UB had "integrity" issues either, until it was shoved down your throats and you were forced to admit it. I guess if this thread cannot be about how great you are and how stupid we are then you resort to lower and lower insults, even in the face of our good intentions to serve the industry. Clearly you are a class act, but I hope not an average representation of 2+2.

Thank you for clearly demonstrating the frustrations and disappointments the APCW had to deal with when we asked for 2+2's assistance in the first place. Thank you for showing the readers here that while the APCW is run by humans, capable of error and willing to admit it, at least you seize upon every opportunity possible to belittle others. Thank you for taking time out of your day to preserve a record of your professionalism.

The APCW has been a respected member of the online gaming community for many years without your assistance, and we continue to do so despite the best efforts of people like you with too much time and too few hobbies. While the rest of us work to make this a better place, you can keep hurling insults and showing everyone why the most you will ever attain in this industry is moderator of a message board.
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Old 01-30-2009, 05:33 PM   #623
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

so the reason their audit sucked is b/c no one helped them do it?
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:29 PM   #624
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I signed up over there to view the forums and they have closed the thread and removed the video. They also deleted the posts by River.

J Todd is pretty defensive about the whole thing.
lol

I didn't really intend to revive this - Just having some fum with the Youtube image.

Please don't go over and poop on their forums! We're better than that!!


When I went over there, I reposted everything I had posted in the other rigged thread about the audit and added a couple new points. That what his first post ("You have actually picked a very bad time to dredge this all up again") is responding to.

His second post ("arrogant, cannibalistic type") is responding to my follow-up where I go off on him a bit for trying to shift the blame.

For the record, this is the post that got me banned (yeah, I mixed up Casinomeister and Wizard of Odds):



Quote:
First and foremost we have acknowledged the flaws with this audit. In our defense, however, there are several factors you should keep in mind: We've done some damn good work for this industry. This project was not one of them, but we're ok with that because if you're going to take chances it's inevitable that you're gonna mess up at some point.
Wait, so your garbage audit is our fault? Or Casinomeister's?

Are you kidding?

You "sent an email to 2+2"? What does that even mean? You sent an email to the book publisher? I'm a moderator on the 2+2 forums. 2+2 is not one guy like this site seems to be, it's tens of thousands of people. You emailed 2+2? So, what, Mason, or the administrators had better things to get back to you about another rigtard thread? Are you serious? I can't imagine how many emails Mason gets from tiny poker sites hoping to ride his coattails.

If you want 2+2's input, you post in the forums. That's where 2+2 lives and breathes.

Except 2+2 gets a lot of rigtard threads, don't expect a warm welcome if your quality matches what you brought to this.


So, having acknowledge that your "audit" is a bunch of crap, why have you not rescinded it? Why have you not apologized to Full Tilt for slandering them? Why have you left that audit there to mislead the gullible, superstitious and clueless?

You are troll bait, sir. Any "predetermined opinion" I have is based entirely on your own work, on your own audit. And it is nothing but crap. Why is it still here, almost a year later when you know it is worthless? Why do you think a bad, misleading "audit" is better than no audit at all?

"Positive change" doesn't include humiliating yourself and pandering to the tin foil hat brigade. Are there rigged sites? Do people need to be careful? Yes. And 2+2 has been at the forefront of exposing them. But an audit like yours HELPS THE RIGGED SITES by muddying the waters. How many people saw your "audit" and decided to avoid Full Tilt (which is considered a reputable site even though their customer service is terrible) and then wound up on a shady site? Particularly Americans who don't have a lot of options as far as poker sites.

How many people did you drive into the arms of scammers?
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:42 PM   #625
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarMike View Post
Im not sure whats worse, the poster who starts a new rigged thread, or the ones that jump his **** complaining that someone started another one, yet the complainer's are all over everyone of these types of threads with multiple posts and constant bumping of them to top of the page. Good job Morons
The only way to fight ignorance is with knowledge.

What would you have everyone do, allow absurd statements to go unchallenged? When it comes to something like the APCW "audit" is that I'm not worried about people with an ounce of sense believing for it. Anyone with a functioning cerebral cortex who takes two minutes to look at the thing can tell that it's garbage.

On the other hand, the people who believe this stuff uncritically and the people who can't tell something like the "audit" is crap are the people I most want to be sitting at the online poker tables when I play! That is I have a huge vested interest in convincing the people who are dumb enough to swallow this crap that online poker is safe and secure because these people are very likely to be huge donators. But if they believe things like the "audit" or other unsubstantiated conspiracy theories they are that much less likely to play. Which is taking money out of my pockets.

The thing these rigtards don't understand is that if anyone ever managed to actually prove that Full Tilt is rigged it would be a huge story. It would be one of the biggest things to ever happen to online gaming, second only to the UIEGA. It would dwarf the AP and UB scandals. It might not make the mainstream news in a big way since after the 60 Minutes story the novelty is gone. However, in the industry it would be an atom bomb. It would be on the front page of every poker and gambling website in the world. It wouldn't be buried in the back of some obscure little website that nobody ever heard of.

It would be like if my neighbour, the UFO nut was actually able to turn up the UFO crash site he claims to have stumbled on while out hunting but has never been able to find again. But in the meantime, we all just assume it wasn't a crash site just a little too much Jack Daniels and we keep the kids away from his property.
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