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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-07-2009, 03:10 AM   #6201
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
In other hand, there are 2-300 users entered to this thread being concerned about the integrity of the game.
this is an utter fabrication.
Quote:
All of them very understandable worry about the integrity of the game. Many of them presented very valid and rational arguments and opinions about why system audit is a must for gambling operators, the criminal connections of online gambling industry, the criminal mindset of gambling operators that by definition is one of the driving forces in the industry, unregulated manner of the online gambling industry which is obviously a disgrace, etc.
All come with concerns, few come with data to give them any weight.

Feel free to share some when you have it.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:05 AM   #6202
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Re: Pokerstars last rng 'limted audit' was 2003, Bodog 2005/blog backed compliance

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In during merge.
Mutter, mutter abuse of moderator privileges mutter, mutter.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:12 AM   #6203
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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NFuego20 cut me down with his well crafted arguement.
It's called 'proportionate response'.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:13 AM   #6204
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I understand someone who might be indifferent and might claim I don't know if it's rigged or not. I don' t really understand the posters here who vehemently deny that it's not rigged. I mean you're trusting a site that's from a different country that you don't really know exactly how they operate and conduct business. I don't understand what your goal is defending them to a T. It's almost like your sole purpose is to be here arguing.

It just really bothers me. I mean I've played tons of real poker along with friends who have played online. They all agree that's it completely different whether it's rigged or not. No matter the limit or the players. Something is different. No matter if it's conscious or subconscious something is different. Something is stale when you play. It always seems like something fishy is going on. No pun intended. You people don't sense this? Do you play live poker?
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:29 AM   #6205
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by FeltMeUp View Post
I understand someone who might be indifferent and might claim I don't know if it's rigged or not. I don' t really understand the posters here who vehemently deny that it's not rigged.
I presume you actually mean: "posters here who vehemently deny that it is rigged"?

If so, could ypu please post a link to a single message where someone has vehemently denied that online poker is rigged?

Those of us arguring agaist rigtards universally take the stance that online poker very probably isn't rigged.

We take that stance for the simple reason that there is no evidence that it is.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:57 AM   #6206
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Dire View Post
Two unrelated questions:

Why would sites not strongly encourage, or even support, efforts of players like IndianaV8 who has accumulated a billion or so hands and is actively obfuscating the hands such that they cannot be used for opponent profiling, but more for simple data analysis? He's even restricting access to them to make it even less likely that a motivated grinder would be able to even attempt to try to use them for profiling.

Also, I was just browsing the last few pages. Some people mentioned rigging being 'illegal'. Under what law and jurisdiction would rigging the games be illegal? Russ Hamilton cheated in a very direct manner doing nothing short of directly stealing players' money and even he hasn't been charged with anything. So far as I know no police were never even involved at any stage of that incident. The only possible punishment of rigging would seem to be judged in the court of public opinion. But again, AP/UB/Cereus show that court is somewhat lacking in clout. Either way, it seems simply disingenuous to imply that rigging would be a criminal offense. Toto, I don't think we're in Vegas anymore.
Very good points.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:02 AM   #6207
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by FeltMeUp View Post
1. The Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker Scandal
2. Bots
3. Hackers
4. Collusion
5. No regulation cause these sites are in bum**** nowhere
6. Big Stack miracles in Tourneys
7. Short Stack miracles in Cash Games
8. Money Laundering
9. Mafia connections
10. Countless Payout Delays
11. Cash Out Curse/Doomswitch
12. Superusers
13. Players using multiple accounts

There's no proof any of this rigged! What a joke!
I wonder if some of you nonrigtards are affiliated to these sites.
There's always about 3-5 of you on every rigged thread on every poker forum.
+1

There simply isn't a reasonable explanation as to why the small group of poster's continue to defend Online poker so vigourously and for so long.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:10 AM   #6208
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, since I strongly believe PS operation is dishonest, fraudulent and they simply misleads players about the integrity of their operation by making the marketing cloud about the Cigital report on the RNG and in the meantime have been hiding the only relevant full system audits from the public (which obviously not exists that’s why they aren't revealing) I call them criminals. I call Madoff and the Enron fraudsters criminal as well. Until PS is not providing credible evidence about the existence of full system audit reports that covers all aspects of their operation, they are just money collector fraudsters hiding behind the tiny Isle of Man gaming authority wihout proving their honesty and they are not in the league of legitimate and honest businesses.

I can’t wait UK law enforcement listen to consumer protection groups and finally initiate a criminal investigation against PS in the UK which will force them to submit their full source code and will reveal the nature of their operation, and then we will see who was correct about PS. Knowing gambling industry traditionally and by nature attracts criminals like magnet and understanding what is common in Madoff and people who set up PS I am not to worry about the libel you referring to.



I was not aware that this site is for professional poker players only. I found this thread that discusses rigged online poker and I was under the impression that not all posters are professional poker players here - in fact your ranting buddy qpw is not a poker player at all, as it became clear he is not playing the game at all just shilling here.



I don’t associate with anybody apart from
1) morally supporting UK based consumer groups which hopefully will be able to initiate a criminal investigation against PS behalf of pissed of players
2) being involved by providing some coding with an open source software project that purpose is to deliver 100% transparent poker game in which the RNG and all software source code including the database is available for public review and obviously is not rigged.

That’s all my association with the gambling industry.




Yes, 5-6 regular site defender crusaders like yourself have been posting their opinion here and some of you ranting about rigtards/******s, paranoia and personally attack users who dare to wonder about the integrity of the game. In other hand, there are 2-300 users entered to this thread being concerned about the integrity of the game. All of them very understandable worry about the integrity of the game. Many of them presented very valid and rational arguments and opinions about why system audit is a must for gambling operators, the criminal connections of online gambling industry, the criminal mindset of gambling operators that by definition is one of the driving forces in the industry, unregulated manner of the online gambling industry which is obviously a disgrace, etc.
Excellent post!
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:16 AM   #6209
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Very good points.
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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
+1

There simply isn't a reasonable explanation as to why the small group of poster's continue to defend Online poker so vigourously and for so long.
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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Excellent post!
Taking it easy today, supperbowl?

Just making a few 'me too' posts and letting others do all the work?

Have you finally embarrassed yourself spouting nonsense and decided to take a break to give your self respect a chance to recover?

Mind how you go.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:20 AM   #6210
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
No it is not. You know nothing about software engineering that’s why you are speculating on the issue and making incorrect assumptions.

As I said earlier in my previous post, maximum 2-3 senior level software/system engineers would need to be involved to handle the rigged code segments and its deployments and certainly not thousand of peoples as you have assumed.
So these same 2-3 guys go to all the hundreds of rooms and do the voodoo that they do? That is your theory? At each of these individual sites not a single internal person knows about this?

That seems.... interesting.

Since you have a lot of time on your hand by not emailing the sites your questions, why don't you break down the industry for us so no one makes any more faulty assumptions.

There are hundreds of rooms. How many are rigged with your magic software. How many are not. How many at each specific room would know about it in some way.

Yeah, this is where we get to actual proof type stuff so I imagine your interest in breaking this down will diminish greatly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
No I don't get your point. Why do you assume that ALL poker sites are rigged and there is no honest operation at all? I assume PS and FT are rigged, but it obviously does not mean that all sites are rigged, and I am sure there are a lot of honest online poker rooms. So we are not talking about thousands of people just 1-2 at PS.

Are you paranoid that making up that massive thousand people conspiracy theories and overcomplicating simple things?

I see. What about all of those who think Party is rigged, Cake is rigged, ipoker rooms are rigged, ongame rooms are rigged, everest is rigged, Microgaming rooms are rigged etc.

Are you saying all of them are actually wrong and only Stars and Tilt are rigged? A lot of riggedologists will be disappointed!

Kind of feels like you have a weird specific agenda now Then again maybe only Stars and Tilt can hire the black ops, ninja team of experts you say exist to make it all happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
The golden rule is if you are suspicious quit playing, it will cost you nothing, you mighr even 'get a life' so to speak
You might be surprised. Once in a while a paranoid riggedologist will explain their ways at a table after they win a way too small pot based on their hand and opponents hands. They will explain that they know the site will screw them so they will not bet until the river when they know they have won for sure. They think it cost them nothing because they still won the hand. It cost them tons and it is one of the main reasons they are generally losing players - they make a lot of blatant mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeltMeUp View Post
I understand someone who might be indifferent and might claim I don't know if it's rigged or not. I don' t really understand the posters here who vehemently deny that it's not rigged.
Same methodology as people who say aliens live among us are not real until proof is shown. It does not mean that aliens cannot exist, just that proof is needed for a claim like that to be believed.

The alien among us nuts ask the exact same question you just did when mocked as well. 9/11 people are even cuter.

It's just standard paranoid conspiracy stuff, nothing more. Some innately believe in them, most do not. Those that do not either ignore the paranoid people, some ask for proof and the cycle begins (as we see here over and over ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeltMeUp View Post
It just really bothers me. I mean I've played tons of real poker along with friends who have played online. They all agree that's it completely different whether it's rigged or not. No matter the limit or the players. Something is different.
Yes, the games are harder. Many use software to identify opponents in ways that few can do live. Many multi table and get a ton more hands in an hour then live players get in a week.

It's a tougher game. If you are used to live which tends to be much looser then it probably takes a lot of adjustment. Multi tabling online players do not need to play hands out of boredom because they get 1 every 3 minutes.

This is not that hard a concept, buit many do not get it. One guy in this thread thought it was fishy that he would lose more when he moved up in limits. Gee...



Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
+1

There simply isn't a reasonable explanation as to why the small group of poster's continue to defend Online poker so vigourously and for so long.
Has nothing to do with the sites for me, it is just an amusing debate that lets me see more into the paranoid mind at times. I play online poker so it is a better area to do this then any of the other similar conspiracy areas like 9/11, aliens, whatever that are not of much interest to me personally.

You still post here on a poker message board a lot even though you quit poker a while ago when you realized you could not hack it at the game. Explain that

Maybe I should create another gimmick account and post a totally wild story to get you to say "Excellent post!" to me again like you did a couple months ago. That was kind of fun as well.

All the best.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:40 AM   #6211
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
this is an utter fabrication [that there are 200-300 users in this thread concerned about the integrity of the games]
How is this a fabrication? The 'site defenders' seem to made up of a small group that are making hundreds of posts. Aside from them this thread seems mostly to be made up of people indeed concerned about site integrity making a few posts here and there, with varying degrees of.. clarity.

Posters with over 100 posts: 14
Posters with over 250 posts: 6
Maximum number of posts: 627

Total posts in thread: 6100+
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:46 AM   #6212
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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How is this a fabrication? The 'site defenders' seem to made up of a small group that are making hundreds of posts. Aside from them this thread seems mostly to be made up of people indeed concerned about site integrity making a few posts here and there, with varying degrees of.. clarity.

Posters with over 100 posts: 14
Posters with over 250 posts: 6
Maximum number of posts: 627

Total posts in thread: 6100+
I would be honored to be a working part of your new paranoid construct, as it would be fun to see the paranoid conspiracy formation process from the very beginning.

9/11 has truthers so you should come up with a catchy name as well. "Site defenders" is a bit long and clunky and shills is whiny and overused. You don't want to use "defenders" since that implies "defends the truth"

Hmm, how about "proponents." Same thing but sounds more sinister.

Hope that helps some!
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:51 AM   #6213
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
I would be honored to be a working part of your new paranoid construct, as it would be fun to see the paranoid conspiracy formation process from the very beginning.

9/11 has truthers so you should come up with a catchy name as well. "Site defenders" is a bit long and clunky and shills is whiny and overused. You don't want to use "defenders" since that implies "defends the truth"

Hmm, how about "proponents." Same thing but sounds more sinister.
Oh, to hell with it!

Why not just stick with 'Agents of the Lizard People'?

At least it has the dual benefits of honesty and accuracy.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:56 AM   #6214
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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How is this a fabrication?
two reasons...

1) like most rigtard figures, this was made up out of thin air.

2) if by some chance there are 200 different screen names who have expressed concern about the integrity of online poker ITT, it's easy to show that they are not 200 different people. Think of them as "Rigtard Bots," if you will.

but hey, if you or your boy want to go through the "Who Posted" list and show me that the patterns which my brain has perceived are not, in fact, correct I will apologize and even change my undertitle to something appropriately humble for a week.

see how providing data to back up claims makes things better?
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:56 AM   #6215
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Monteroy, your posts are rather ironic as you seem to be under the paranoid impression that anybody that does not blindly trust foreign unregulated sites must surely be a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

ITT: Internet poker's very own Clayton Bigsby.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:05 AM   #6216
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Monteroy, your posts are rather ironic as you seem to be under the paranoid impression that anybody that does not blindly trust foreign unregulated sites must surely be a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.
You clearly have no idea as to the meaning of 'paranoid'.

We'll just add that to the list of other things about which you appear to be completely clueless.


Have a nice day.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:08 AM   #6217
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
two reasons...

1) like most rigtard figures, this was made up out of thin air.

2) if by some chance there are 200 different screen names who have expressed concern about the integrity of online poker ITT, it's easy to show that they are not 200 different people. Think of them as "Rigtard Bots," if you will.

but hey, if you or your boy want to go through the "Who Posted" list and show me that the patterns which my brain has perceived are not, in fact, correct I will apologize and even change my undertitle to something appropriately humble for a week.

see how providing data to back up claims makes things better?
My boy? Don't get paranoid here. I don't know or care who made the original post. I just found your comment unusual and unsupported by the numbers in the thread. Again, also supported by a healthy dose of irony as you suggest others provide data to back up their arguments while you do nothing of the like - and I actually did provide a brief overview of the figures which show about 4,000 posts made by lots of posters with very few posts, and the 'site defender' group seems to be made up of a small number of posters with a huge number of average posts per user.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:08 AM   #6218
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Dire View Post
Monteroy, your posts are rather ironic as you seem to be under the paranoid impression that anybody that does not blindly trust foreign unregulated sites must surely be a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

ITT: Internet poker's very own Clayton Bigsby.
Your xenophobia notwithstanding, I am a believer of marketplaces regulating themselves when mature, especially in an area where all of the data (hand histories) is available for study.

Customers keep the sites in check. Competitors do. The sites have to provide a product customers are comfortable with to survive (which again is why many sites have folded recently).

I do not blindly assume that foreign entities are criminals like a bad James Bond movie, and frankly whether the sites are licensed by the US or a high school chess team in outer Mongolia is not really significant for my beliefs as to how the marketplace manages itself. Call me a sucker for pure capitalism.

If you want paranoia, you need to look at those who create theories out of thin air. You know, like you are starting right now with your "proponents" theory.

Good luck with that by the way
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:13 AM   #6219
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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My boy? Don't get paranoid here.
Will you please stop using the word 'paranoid' until you have learned what it means?

Although it's amusing for those of us who do know what it means and use it int its correct sense to see a rigtard losing even more credibility by aping our usage but getting the meaning wrong it does seem charitable to point out to you that you are making an even bigger idiot iof yourself than usual.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:15 AM   #6220
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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You clearly have no idea as to the meaning of 'paranoid'.

We'll just add that to the list of other things about which you appear to be completely clueless.


Have a nice day.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranoia

2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

I am not fully trusting of foreign unregulated sites. Greed is a very powerful driving force.

Monteroy, yourself and the handful of others seem to be excessively suspicious of anybody who does not blindly put their faith into the sites for no apparent reason. And your use of first person plural seems to indicate you've already mentally segregated yourself into "us versus them." when in the end, we should all be on the same side anyhow.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:22 AM   #6221
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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My boy? Don't get paranoid here. I don't know or care who made the original post.
PROVE he's not your boy.
Quote:
I just found your comment unusual and unsupported by the numbers in the thread. Again, also supported by a healthy dose of irony as you suggest others provide data to back up their arguments while you do nothing of the like - and I actually did provide a brief overview of the figures which show about 4,000 posts made by lots of posters with very few posts, and the 'site defender' group seems to be made up of a small number of posters with a huge number of average posts per user.
yep, the numbers are there about "Who Posted?" but it doesn't show whether or not they support the Rigtard Cause. Many of those who only have 1-2 posts in this thread just popped in to make fun of the Core Fanatics, drop off a dinosaur picture or just express how funny this "debate" is.

So, I respectfully disagree with your estimate and look forward to detailed figures.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:22 AM   #6222
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Not a one of the figures you mention are close to reality. Your 17:1 which should say 16:1 was the least far off. When did sets change from 7.5:1 to 50:1? You are talking about poker right?
If it was 7.5:1 you woud see one almost every hand.
Back to school for you me thinks!!
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:31 AM   #6223
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Dire View Post
Monteroy, yourself and the handful of others seem to be excessively suspicious of anybody who does not blindly put their faith into the sites for no apparent reason. And your use of first person plural seems to indicate you've already mentally segregated yourself into "us versus them." when in the end, we should all be on the same side anyhow.
Has nothing to do with the sites. I do not blindly put my faith in people's conspiracy theories when they have zero proof.

I would treat a 9/11 "melting steel" guy the same way I treat a riggedologist like yourself. Show me verifiable proof to support your beliefs and I will believe you. Until then you are another routine guy who makes stuff up for a personal agenda who will never show a single bit of actual proof.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:39 AM   #6224
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
If it was 7.5:1 you woud see one almost every hand.
Back to school for you me thinks!!
Odds of a pocket pair flopping a set = 1 - (chance of not flopping a set)

= 1 - (chance first flop card doesn't have same rank as pair * same thing for second card * same thing for third card)

= 1 - ( 48/50 * 47/49 * 46/48)
= 1 - 0.88244
= 0.11755
= 1 / 8.506944444

= 7.5 : 1
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:44 AM   #6225
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Dire View Post
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranoia

2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

I am not fully trusting of foreign unregulated sites. Greed is a very powerful driving force.
So you don't trust 'foreign' unregulated sites.

But you trust sites in t-land that are unregulated?

Quote:
Monteroy, yourself and the handful of others seem to be excessively suspicious of anybody who does not blindly put their faith into the sites for no apparent reason.
ROFLMAO.

We are not suspicious of you!

We just think you are idiots.

To qualify as paranoid we would need to believe that you were out to get us. Speaking purely for myself I certainly don't believe that.

Rigtards, on the other hand, self evidently do believe that the sites are conspiring to 'get them' in the sense of dishonestly part them from their money.

Thus the rigtards qualify for the epithet 'paranoid' but no rigtards do not - at least not on the basis of their imputation of the motives of rigtards.

Clear?


Have a nice day.
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