Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-06-2009, 06:31 PM   #6151
jagnje
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 60
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
You are not a secret agent. If you have proof that a site is rigged then show it. Believe me, you saying their name will not impact it one bit, since no one really believes you anyway.
As of yet, I don't have any proof, just suspicion. I really don't see the point in defining which site it is, if I can prove the unfair deal, you will know, and if I can't prove it, it clearly doesn't matter. Furthermore the games are soft and the software is decent. I really don't want to harm them in any way if their deal is fair.
jagnje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 06:31 PM   #6152
Stars
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 98
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

because an audit isn't just about the RNG it is people going in and looking through files and seeing what is going on there. The 'testing' is for the RNG. That is different, of course they could switch it back, but unless somebody looks at their operations then we'll never know.
Stars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 06:32 PM   #6153
Stars
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 98
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Call up the Pokerstars auditors, they will tell you the testing they did was LIMITED meaning that it wasn't a complete test.. so it could have been rigged from the beginning with these two 2003 tests just limited yet referred to endlessly.

Call them and ask yourself.
Stars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 06:33 PM   #6154
Stars
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 98
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

in regards to the bots, there are players 'names' that are in every single tournament how exactly is that possible, never sleep?
Stars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 06:42 PM   #6155
Dire
banned
 
Dire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: wasting less time
Posts: 8,581
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Two unrelated questions:

Why would sites not strongly encourage, or even support, efforts of players like IndianaV8 who has accumulated a billion or so hands and is actively obfuscating the hands such that they cannot be used for opponent profiling, but more for simple data analysis? He's even restricting access to them to make it even less likely that a motivated grinder would be able to even attempt to try to use them for profiling.

Also, I was just browsing the last few pages. Some people mentioned rigging being 'illegal'. Under what law and jurisdiction would rigging the games be illegal? Russ Hamilton cheated in a very direct manner doing nothing short of directly stealing players' money and even he hasn't been charged with anything. So far as I know no police were never even involved at any stage of that incident. The only possible punishment of rigging would seem to be judged in the court of public opinion. But again, AP/UB/Cereus show that court is somewhat lacking in clout. Either way, it seems simply disingenuous to imply that rigging would be a criminal offense. Toto, I don't think we're in Vegas anymore.

Last edited by Dire; 07-06-2009 at 06:49 PM.
Dire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 06:44 PM   #6156
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars View Post
in regards to the bots, there are players 'names' that are in every single tournament how exactly is that possible, never sleep?
Give us a few examples. I call bs.
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 06:51 PM   #6157
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars View Post
in regards to the bots, there are players 'names' that are in every single tournament how exactly is that possible, never sleep?
Well after checking over your exhaustive list of these names, I can't really argue with you. Refreshing to see someone post evidence to back themselves up, and not just spout random bull**** that's easily provable yet they don't prove it.

Last edited by otatop; 07-06-2009 at 06:51 PM. Reason: dammit, should have refreshed first
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 07:00 PM   #6158
BucketFoot
grinder
 
BucketFoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Boston
Posts: 500
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

FTP is rigged IMO
BucketFoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 07:00 PM   #6159
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

not surprising he didn't provide examples... these guys come on here trying to sound intelligent and then they bury their credibility with a simple line of bs like that

I mean something like that would be soooo easy to investigate.
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 07:01 PM   #6160
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
FTP is rigged IMO
You've made your opinion clear on numerous occasions. My opinion that you're dumb remains as well, as long as we're going to restate the obvious.
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 07:12 PM   #6161
Dire
banned
 
Dire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: wasting less time
Posts: 8,581
Re: Pokerstars last rng 'limted audit' was 2003, Bodog 2005/blog backed compliance

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Actually, why would Stars need to have the RNG audited again if it hasn't changed.

And before anyone starts bleating that 'PS may have changed it in the interim' there's nothing to stop them replacing the audited RNG with another the moment the auditing authority walks out of the door.

So unless you expect them to have the auditors active 24/7 there's no real problem here.
Game audits are done to help the sites figure out if they're dealing fairly, as much as financial audits are done to help companies figure out if they're reporting their finances correctly. They're done for one reason: integrity and conformance to regulation. In Nevada, for example, Group 1 casinos (casinos with annual gaming revenue of 3million+) not only have all of their RNGs routinely audited, but are also subject to unannounced and even covert audits.

Of course we don't have anything like this with current online poker since the industry is effectively unregulated, and so you're here defending a prescheduled limited audit performed 5 years ago by arbitrary hand-picked third parties as acceptable. It's certainly better than nothing but not a practice that I think is worth defending.
Dire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 07:49 PM   #6162
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
Re: Pokerstars last rng 'limted audit' was 2003, Bodog 2005/blog backed compliance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire View Post
Game audits are done to help the sites figure out if they're dealing fairly, as much as financial audits are done to help companies figure out if they're reporting their finances correctly. They're done for one reason: integrity and conformance to regulation. In Nevada, for example, Group 1 casinos (casinos with annual gaming revenue of 3million+) not only have all of their RNGs routinely audited, but are also subject to unannounced and even covert audits.

Of course we don't have anything like this with current online poker since the industry is effectively unregulated, and so you're here defending a prescheduled limited audit performed 5 years ago by arbitrary hand-picked third parties as acceptable. It's certainly better than nothing but not a practice that I think is worth defending.
Lets pretend they have not been audited in a single way ever. What still fails the common sense test is that the software is being secretly manipulated by secret people who keep the secret for I assume hundreds or thousands of sites, many of which no longer exist.

This is not a blanket statement that all is rainbows and unicorns, and in fact this industry has a lot of problems. Many small rooms and casinos stopped paying out cashouts. Many (ipoker for instance) have bot issues, that are not properly handled. Many (like crypto in the day) had people who entered tourneys with multiple accounts. Many have poor customer support. That list can go on to include issues like collusion, player to player fraud and a whole host of other things.

Those are all real basic problems that can be on any of the sites and they are very valid reasons to choose to play or not play on particular rooms.

Riggedologists go way past that though and start seeing deliberate acts of evil directed toward them, which again fail the common sense test. Are all rooms doing this? If so, how have the thousands of programmers, managers and others aware of this not come forward , even from the rooms that shut down? Why do they always pick on losing, bad players (who think they are good)?

While it is sort of fun seeing all of the fanciful and whimsical and often times deeply paranoid beliefs many have, the problem is that they distract from actual real problems in this industry. All of those craving some type of undefined "audit" will never be satisfied no matter who does an audit and how often. The sites will always be rigged against them in their mind, even though they will never be able to prove it. To deal with them is basically a waste of time, because their paranoia will never change. Ever.


The availability of data, and the competitive market place do a lot to keep the rooms in check. This is why many, MANY rooms have vanished recently. They could not compete in a maturing industry. This business is like any other where the smart and strong and efficient will do well, and those that fall behind will not. Simple economics, nothing more.

By the way, pretty much all industries have paranoid people who think there are dark forces at work.

McDonalds:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com..._bloodline.htm

Think this involved lizard people so bonus points

Burger King:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO4ND1pfw1w

This may involve Lizard People as well! That King guy is a bit creepy.


Microsoft/Apple:

http://theappleblog.com/2007/02/06/p...piracy-theory/

No lizard people, though Gates kind of looks like one.

Walmart:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ell.html?cat=3

Disney:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...iminal-erotica

Maybe animated lizard people make an appearance


GM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_A...eetcar_scandal


Welcome to the real world, filled with the equivalent of riggedologists in every industry. Online poker just happens to have a nice thread for them all
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 07:50 PM   #6163
pen15
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 627
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Why is it I get all the good luck in freerolls but increaasingly bad luck in cash games the higher stakes the worst.

Latest holding QQ Jack high flop so worth a bet I get called figure he has jacks or maybe 2 pair, I notice a possible straight is on he raises the turn I call and hit QQQ on the river.
I think sod it, I'mall in as I am pot commited anyway and ofcourse he flops the 100-1 straight which combines with my otherwise nuts QQQ.
pen15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 07:57 PM   #6164
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
Why is it I get all the good luck in freerolls but increaasingly bad luck in cash games the higher stakes the worst.
Let me see if I understand. Because you have worse results the higher stakes you move up, you attribute that to the site being rigged? Seriously, this latest crop of riggedologists...


Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
Latest holding QQ Jack high flop so worth a bet I get called figure he has jacks or maybe 2 pair, I notice a possible straight is on he raises the turn I call and hit QQQ on the river.
I think sod it, I'mall in as I am pot commited anyway and ofcourse he flops the 100-1 straight which combines with my otherwise nuts QQQ.
I assume this is a bad beat story, though it is hard to make any sense of it. Pretty sure you did not lose to a 100-1 situation no matter what the hand was or how it played, but pretend math is nothing new for those who practice riggedology so good work.

If English is your primary language, you have other issues you may wish to address before cracking the non-freeroll rigged code against you.

All the best.
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:15 PM   #6165
pen15
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 627
Re: Pokerstars last rng 'limted audit' was 2003, Bodog 2005/blog backed compliance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Lets pretend they have not been audited in a single way ever. What still fails the common sense test is that the software is being secretly manipulated by secret people who keep the secret for I assume hundreds or thousands of sites, many of which no longer exist.

This is not a blanket statement that all is rainbows and unicorns, and in fact this industry has a lot of problems. Many small rooms and casinos stopped paying out cashouts. Many (ipoker for instance) have bot issues, that are not properly handled. Many (like crypto in the day) had people who entered tourneys with multiple accounts. Many have poor customer support. That list can go on to include issues like collusion, player to player fraud and a whole host of other things.

Those are all real basic problems that can be on any of the sites and they are very valid reasons to choose to play or not play on particular rooms.

Riggedologists go way past that though and start seeing deliberate acts of evil directed toward them, which again fail the common sense test. Are all rooms doing this? If so, how have the thousands of programmers, managers and others aware of this not come forward , even from the rooms that shut down? Why do they always pick on losing, bad players (who think they are good)?

While it is sort of fun seeing all of the fanciful and whimsical and often times deeply paranoid beliefs many have, the problem is that they distract from actual real problems in this industry. All of those craving some type of undefined "audit" will never be satisfied no matter who does an audit and how often. The sites will always be rigged against them in their mind, even though they will never be able to prove it. To deal with them is basically a waste of time, because their paranoia will never change. Ever.


The availability of data, and the competitive market place do a lot to keep the rooms in check. This is why many, MANY rooms have vanished recently. They could not compete in a maturing industry. This business is like any other where the smart and strong and efficient will do well, and those that fall behind will not. Simple economics, nothing more.

By the way, pretty much all industries have paranoid people who think there are dark forces at work.

McDonalds:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com..._bloodline.htm

Think this involved lizard people so bonus points

Burger King:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO4ND1pfw1w

This may involve Lizard People as well! That King guy is a bit creepy.


Microsoft/Apple:

http://theappleblog.com/2007/02/06/p...piracy-theory/

No lizard people, though Gates kind of looks like one.

Walmart:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ell.html?cat=3

Disney:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...iminal-erotica

Maybe animated lizard people make an appearance


GM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_A...eetcar_scandal


Welcome to the real world, filled with the equivalent of riggedologists in every industry. Online poker just happens to have a nice thread for them all
You raise some good poiints in your post, I used to play at crypto and I knew people could have mutliple accounts, as one guy admitted to it an I could tell from the disproportionate number of 'new' players and scarcity of regulars despite me playing at the same times in the same games.It was clear many 'knew' my game, I did take advantage of this by switching from passive to aggresive. I also notice 'bot' like play at ipoker, to many tight players at low stakes etc..


But what this does show is players are willing to cheat, and players are people an poker sites are run by people thus there are cheats at every poker site. Business peoplep tend to be by their very nature cheats.

There reason why managers and programmers don't come forward is because either they don't know about it or are involved in it, there is the added incentive of not losing your job/career.

As time goes by people (workers) at sites get to know each other socially
and no doubt begin to discuss how they could rig games down the pub or what ever. All it takes is a few key people, a programmer, a manager and maybe a security person (assuming they have one) and they have a license to print money.

It is almost inevitable that cheating will evolve.

Why doesn't a site care about multiple accounts? Well half of them probably belong to the staff and of course staff can easilly delete all traces of their old accounts etc...

It's all so easy, cheating will happen, do the management care?
No of course not, so long as they are getting paid they don't give a toss.
pen15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:19 PM   #6166
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
Why is it I get all the good luck in freerolls but increaasingly bad luck in cash games the higher stakes the worst.

Latest holding QQ Jack high flop so worth a bet I get called figure he has jacks or maybe 2 pair, I notice a possible straight is on he raises the turn I call and hit QQQ on the river.
I think sod it, I'mall in as I am pot commited anyway and ofcourse he flops the 100-1 straight which combines with my otherwise nuts QQQ.
shut up
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:20 PM   #6167
pen15
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 627
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Let me see if I understand. Because you have worse results the higher stakes you move up, you attribute that to the site being rigged? Seriously, this latest crop of riggedologists...




I assume this is a bad beat story, though it is hard to make any sense of it. Pretty sure you did not lose to a 100-1 situation no matter what the hand was or how it played, but pretend math is nothing new for those who practice riggedology so good work.

If English is your primary language, you have other issues you may wish to address before cracking the non-freeroll rigged code against you.

All the best.
No I said I get more 'bad luck' at higher stakes, I never make any draws yet I make the expected percentage in free rolls etc...

I am not sure what your language is but riggedologists si not in any recognised dictionary and you are the only person in the history of the internet to use it as google clearly shows. One - Nill.
pen15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:23 PM   #6168
FeltMeUp
stranger
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

1. The Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker Scandal
2. Bots
3. Hackers
4. Collusion
5. No regulation cause these sites are in bum**** nowhere
6. Big Stack miracles in Tourneys
7. Short Stack miracles in Cash Games
8. Money Laundering
9. Mafia connections
10. Countless Payout Delays
11. Cash Out Curse/Doomswitch
12. Superusers
13. Players using multiple accounts

There's no proof any of this rigged! What a joke!
I wonder if some of you nonrigtards are affiliated to these sites.
There's always about 3-5 of you on every rigged thread on every poker forum.
FeltMeUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:31 PM   #6169
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
No I said I get more 'bad luck' at higher stakes, I never make any draws yet I make the expected percentage in free rolls etc...
Oh cool, so you're keeping track of it and have graphs to post, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeltMeUp View Post
1. The Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker Scandal
2. Bots
3. Hackers
4. Collusion
All have nothing to do with rigging.
Quote:
5. No regulation cause these sites are in bum**** nowhere
Which sites are unregulated?
Quote:
6. Big Stack miracles in Tourneys
7. Short Stack miracles in Cash Games
Neat. Others have proposed the exact opposite theories, though, so you guys are gonna have to work something out.
Quote:
8. Money Laundering
9. Mafia connections
10. Countless Payout Delays
...which again has nothing to do with rigging.
Quote:
11. Cash Out Curse/Doomswitch
Probably has just as much evidence for it as against it.
Quote:
12. Superusers
On 2 sites (same network), that was caught fairly quickly with a little thing called "evidence".
Quote:
13. Players using multiple accounts
Again, has nothing to do with rigging.
Quote:
There's no proof any of this rigged! What a joke!
I wonder if some of you nonrigtards are affiliated to these sites.
There's always about 3-5 of you on every rigged thread on every poker forum.
And there's always about 3-5 rigtards on every forum. Neat.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:31 PM   #6170
pen15
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 627
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
shut up
NFuego20 cut me down with his well crafted arguement.
pen15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:48 PM   #6171
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
NFuego20 cut me down with his well crafted arguement.
Bad beat stories aren't proof, they're just annoying.

Especially since that hand probably wasn't really a bad beat, just "omg I has a set!".
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 08:52 PM   #6172
FeltMeUp
stranger
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
Oh cool, so you're keeping track of it and have graphs to post, right?
All have nothing to do with rigging.
Yeah bots, collusion, and hackers make such a fair and honest game.

Which sites are unregulated?
Ha. All of them! Have you watched the 60 mins special? The professional internet poker player talking about how none of them are regulated.

Neat. Others have proposed the exact opposite theories, though, so you guys are gonna have to work something out....which again has nothing to do with rigging.

I've always stuck to my word on these theories. Tournaments- Big stacks speed them up. Saves Bandwith. Players buy in to more tourneys. Cash Games- Save the small stack. Creates bigger pots for more rake.

Probably has just as much evidence for it as against it.

Sure. Pokerstars actually have a patented email in their database when you bring up the doomswitch. I've emailed them and I've seen other's emails. Exact same email. They must have been flooded with these to put this email in their database. Joke.

On 2 sites (same network), that was caught fairly quickly with a little thing called "evidence".Again, has nothing to do with rigging.

Right. There could be 100's or 1000's of players with multiple accounts and their top security teams hunts them all down and banish their accounts. Sure. Well let's just start new ones!

And there's always about 3-5 rigtards on every forum. Neat.
There are millions of players who think it's rigged and about 3-5 on you on every forum.
FeltMeUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 09:06 PM   #6173
pen15
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 627
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
Bad beat stories aren't proof, they're just annoying.

Especially since that hand probably wasn't really a bad beat, just "omg I has a set!".

Chance of a pocket pair 17-1, a high pocket pair giving the highest set is about
50-1 chance of making a such a set thus about 250-1.
Combine that with the chance of someone flopping a set (about 50-1)
Gives about 12,000-1.


Combine that with the frequency of similar crap and well you get the picture.
pen15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 09:41 PM   #6174
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
Chance of a pocket pair 17-1, a high pocket pair giving the highest set is about
50-1 chance of making a such a set thus about 250-1.
Combine that with the chance of someone flopping a set (about 50-1)
Gives about 12,000-1.


Combine that with the frequency of similar crap and well you get the picture.
You do math in a creative, non mathematical way. Kind of like abstract art. This may help explain your bad "luck" at the game overall.

Do I need to mention that I got 2 Omaha hands in a row and the odds of them happening in that exact order were about 1 trillion to 1? Meaningless math can be fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
But what this does show is players are willing to cheat, and players are people an poker sites are run by people thus there are cheats at every poker site. Business peoplep tend to be by their very nature cheats.
This is just a cynical, paranoid view of the world. Do you assume every person in every business is a crook? If you hate business that much then you can move to a more non-capitalist nation I suppose. Playing poker seems an odd choice for someone who hates business/capitalism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
There reason why managers and programmers don't come forward is because either they don't know about it or are involved in it, there is the added incentive of not losing your job/career.
Many have lost their jobs by now as their poker rooms collapsed. Why have they not told yet? Are they still worried about losing their job that they already lost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
As time goes by people (workers) at sites get to know each other socially and no doubt begin to discuss how they could rig games down the pub or what ever. All it takes is a few key people, a programmer, a manager and maybe a security person (assuming they have one) and they have a license to print money.
So your proof of hundreds of sites being corrupt is that a few people can talk about it at a pub? OK. They are lucky not a single person overheard the chat, nor that any of these pub guys ever leaked their valuable information.

Even after many lost their jobs.

No logic gaps in that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
It is almost inevitable that cheating will evolve.
This is called being paranoid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
Why doesn't a site care about multiple accounts? Well half of them probably belong to the staff and of course staff can easilly delete all traces of their old accounts etc...
This is called being REALLY paranoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
It's all so easy, cheating will happen, do the management care? No of course not, so long as they are getting paid they don't give a toss.
See, now this is something a guy at a pub would say.

A drunk guy.

Who is paranoid about the world.

All the best.
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 09:49 PM   #6175
PokErasmus
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 110
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
For reasons I've posted many times before and which should be self-evident, for any scheme to result in more profit for the site, it must result in more players sitting in seats on a 24/7 average.
Not necessarily. Deploying system driven wining bot accounts which as you know would be a trivial software engineering exercise would increase the revenue without increasing actual count of depositing users. Taking 5% from every tournament by allocating that amount to the bot accounts would result in significant additional revenue for the sites, extra profit in the range of tenth of millions of dollars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
This doesn't even address any technical hurdles, or the problem of maintaining secrecy.
It is certainly one of the strongest arguments against a rigged system and a very valid point. Having said that, only 1-2 senior level software engineers needs to be involved with such rigged implementation. Being an imaginative software engineer, I can certainly imagine a system where not even the senior who responsible for the data layer needs to be involved, and the rigged code segment can be isolated to the software module that implements the business logic of card distribution and player allocation to tables. We can draw a class diagram easily to demonstrate that such modular design is possible, in fact modular design would be the most sensible for a complex enterprise application such as the PS system.
Additionally, the Madoff types of people are very good at implementing rigged systems and keep the secrecy as it was demonstrated by Madoff, and since the owner of PS the IBM veteran senior programmer is a Madoff type of origin I have to assume that the secrecy issue would be solved. But, you are right and the point was valid, the secrecy is issue in implementing rigged operation.

I will try think scenarios for the proof of concept rigged system and I hope you will be able to spend some time to let me know whether such design would really modify the expected statistical values.
PokErasmus is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive