It's all about the rake online if your not raking then your not baking

greed will shoot these sites in the foot in the next few years

Meh, you are hardly the first moral crusader in this thread. If gambling is a vice you think can be exploited, then I have news for you in the real world - lots of things are exploiting people in the way you believe.


Tons of sites exploit people out of their money due to their lust of men/women/dudes punching themselves in the face etc. The porn industry is a simple example of that.


Tons of food companies take advantage of many people's innate gluttony by producing unhealthy, yet tasty food items. The fast food industry is the simplest example.


Tons of companies take advantage of many people's innate greed. One can hardly turn on the TV without seeing some lame advertisement to buy gold or some other "investment" that loses 25%+ of it's value once you buy it.


Tons of companies take advantage of many people's sloth. Want to lose weight fast, just try these pills or get that crappy piece of equipment as seen on TV.

Tons of companies take advantage of many people's wrath. When a group of people or nation feel angered you can count on a lot of people who will do what they can to monetize it. This latest incident in Boston had hundreds of fake charities pop up after.

Tons of companies take advantage of many people's innate envy. Much of marketing is convincing people that by getting your good or service you will be the envy of your friends, or a variation that you will no longer be envious of people you know. This can be for tame things like who's lawn is greener, or more expensive items like cars/houses etc.

Tons of companies take advantage of many people's innate pride. Think about that the next time you buy yourself some Viagara.



Welcome to humanity, filled with all sorts of deadly sins and those who will exploit them for gain. If you cannot handle that this is a part of the human condition then my suggestion is to remove yourself totally from the grid, or at least preach your moral crusade on a forum that might actually care.

No doubt you have deep conspiracy theories about all sorts of things, not just online poker/gambling - so before you vanish how about you share a few from your collection, and maybe you will be original with some of them (I doubt that).

All the best.

If by "attack[ing] and mock[ing]" you mean pointing out that you've made a clame without commensurate proof, guilty as charged.

You've made an argument which you've not substantiated with falsifiable evidence.

I say there's a teapot orbiting Venus.

There you go. We've both made arguments. That, plus $1.40 will get you a nice hot cup of coffee. Congratulations.

Immaterial. What we're talking about here is whether the deal is rigged, not what happens to the poker sites after it's demonstrated.

I think manipulation of a random stream of data that is correlated to expectation is either significant enough to be detected or insignificant enough to not matter.

Still waiting for your demonstration of that rig you spotted in three hands, sir.

Computer poker can and will be doctored for many years to come ta

Without detection? How?

I'm having trouble spotting the rig in my graph. Can you help me?

Don't be shy.

Your opinions are legit and real, that's what it happens. But you forget about one thing, money and greed.

Real casinos are regulated for a long time, for example the payout in a slow machine is set by law now, but you forget that in the past it wasn't. So yes, casinos did do it, they don't do it now or they do it less because the law stepped in after some time. It isn't that time yet for online poker.

So when the US government tried to step into online poker, the poker companies ran. Why did they do that ? Cause of what happened at full tilt ? Cause of taxes ?

Yes, they can take 5% rake from players. As tobacco companies could be satisfied with the smokers that they have and took money from them.

But ask yourself if you are so clever and know that online poker profits from rake, and tobacco industry profits from smokers, why did the tobacco companies deliberately increased the nicotine concentration over the years and hidden and lied about cigarets? They had no reason cause there were already smokers and they were already making money....

Many people after smoking for a while realize that this is wrong for them and try to quit, but the nicotine addiction is getting tougher to beat. Many online poker players, most of them who play for the first time online or even poker, don't know much about poker and after playing a while and loosing money, and seeing that the game is not for them they will quit.

How can online poker companies determine bad poker players to think that they actually have a chance in winnings at poker ? Poker courses, poker tutorials, play money games... that's just the front.

As tobacco companies would have been dried out by now if they didn't put more nicotine in their cigarettes and lied about their product, so does the online poker industry will dry out soon if they don't use unfair methods.

Tobacco companies couldn't make that much money if they didn't rigged the cigarette, because regular smoking is very bad for health and also expensive, they turned people from casually tobacco smokers and pipe smokers to 3 packets a day smokers. As such, online poker companies can't make that much money because not everyone is a poker player, they will do their best to turn every poker enthusiast into a regular poker player for their own profit, regardless pf the person well being.

Now don't tell me the tobacco and online poker is not a good analogy.... Their both vices, their both billions of dollars industries and they both started out casually.

Quick!

Make some more posts before you get banned again!

good forum ta

OK. Demonstrate such a rig (pseudocode is fine) or submit a dataset which has been manipulated.

You forget about one thing; claims require proof.

Where is it? After all, it's so obvious you can detect it in three hands.

Yes, claims require proofs. But when there is no proof the next best thing to do is to think and look at very similar cases in history.

And you're still obsessed with my three hands example, as I said, that was my personal feeling about that particular game. As it's my personal opinion about the online poker industry being as rigged as the tobacco industry was and is now.

So my personal opinions don't require your approval or acknowledgement. It's a forum and I'm sharing them with people interested in this subject.

You can stop posting if you don't like them ) and also you can stop asking for proof. As I said previously, to expect and ask for proof that could crumble a billion dollars industry on a forum is stupidity at it's highest. If you require arguments for my opinion, well, I just gave you.

LE: And don't think that I don't know what you are doing ... You're trying to redirect the discussion to the old shuffle rigged issue, where you know there isn't any proof (but still stupidly ask for) that the cards are rigged but there is proof that they aren't (the 50 - 50 ods that are ok for all online poker companies). But even if that was true and real, it doesn't mean that online poker isn't rigged, it just means that the cards aren't rigged.

If what you claimed was true, proof would be simple.

Please, demonstrate how one can manipulate a random datastream such that it is both undetectable and has a significant correlative effect on the benefit to the poker room.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

This thread is about rigging and you wrote:

You claimed you could tell within three hands that an online poker room was rigged.

Not letting you get away from your claim is germane to the thread.

Nice try tho.

No, what you made was a statement of fact.

You can have personal feelings about whether the skin is aesthetically pleasing. That's subjective. You can have personal feelings about whether the rake is too high since it's also subjective.

You can't have personal feelings about whether a game is rigged or not because it is objective -- it is either rigged or it is not rigged.

I agree wholeheartedly; you're under no obligation back up a claim with evidence.

But it's also my prerogative to point out that you've made objective claims that you have tried to brush off as subjective opinion.

I can also point out that you've attempted to make your statements out-of-bounds by describing analysis of those statements as "obsessed."

Nah. That's what we do.

It's math. If demonstrating that 9 x 9 = 81 would result in the mafia crumbling, demonstrating it wouldn't become

One.

Single.

Bit.

Harder.

Not one of you dummies can ever explain how asking you to back up what you say = defending poker sites. Why is that?

Redirect the ...? You realize random card distribution is what this thread is about, right?

If your argument is that the cards are rigged, demonstrate how one can manipulate a random datastream such that it is both undetectable and has a significant correlative effect on the benefit to the poker room.

If your argument is that the cards are not rigged, you're in the wrong thread.

Stop prevaricating and back up your claim that the deal is rigged. You said you could do it within three hands, should be a cinch.

@quux You can smooth talk all day long and try to emphasize your superior language and conversational skills also all they long, I personally don't really care about that.

But you're missing intentionally the point of this thread. Instead of debating and arguing about why or not online poker is rigged, you attack, provoke and try to demonstrate your superiority in every single reply that I read so far.

People who enter in this topic, trust me, don't care how smart or smooth talking you are. They want to see what other people think and have to say about online poker, specifically if it's rigged or not, so your replies are worth the same as your teapot orbiting Venus.

Statistics isn't mathematics you clown.

Completely different from rigtards, who all have their own unique posting style and don't just call people affiliates, shills and site promoters(whatever the **** that is).

Sorry we use big confusing words when replying to you, and question your beliefs instead of just joining the losing, whiney player circle jerk.

You want to understand your riggie culture, so perhaps these links will help. They are all different riggies, but you may believe them all even if they say different theories.


Stats riggie (note, you likely will not understand a word he says):

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...hould-1299786/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...isive-1293249/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...untry-1123425/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...uency-1116343/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...omaly-1007942/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...l-play-985031/


Extreme Conspiracy Riggie:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...ssion-1100433/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...ssion-1132764/

He had a lot of beliefs, not all poker related

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/41...onomy-1130732/


Troll/Martyr Riggie:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...sioned-806209/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...ink-so-816658/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...mbling-822222/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...e-yawn-897603/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/26...warded-858683/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36...nents-1026747/


Youtube riggie many riggies enjoy (be sure to click his advertisements to make him some money):

http://www.youtube.com/user/magic612/videos?view=0


My riggie commandments:

Commandment 1: Thou shalt ask others to prove it false

Commandment 2: Thou shalt state an opinion and declare it a fact

Commandment 3: Thou shalt hurl personal attacks

Commandment 4: Thou shalt assume

Commandment 5: Thou shalt have no time to test thy theories

Commandment 6: Thou shalt support they brethren unconditionally

Commandment 7: Thou shalt believe anything is possible with software


I hope all of this helps you better appreciate your riggie culture.


All the best.

ups

that whole 'walking on hot coal's in order to pull one's life together' ritual that became popular some time back was a successful invention by the shrewd marketing boys at the kingsford briquette co.

No, you are missing the point.

This forum (Internet Poker, not this thread) has many many threads dedicated to exposing and finding shady behaviour by poker sites. There is probably nowhere else on the internet that has as much of this information and discussion.

This thread is dedicated to discussion of whether the poker sites deal the cards fairly. Not whether they take players' deposits and buy lobsters with them or whatever.

Up to present there hasn't been any evidence that the cards aren't dealt fairly.

Many riggies say it doesn't look right to them. If they can really detect that something isn't right from playing their own hands then it necessarily follows that analysis of those hands would prove their point mathematically, if they were correct. To date not a single one has done this.

@Monteroy I don't have a riggie culture, trust me.

@Stats riggie - I doubt with 11 posts
@Extreme Conspiracy Riggie - is the tobacco industry methods of lying and deceiving and increasing the amount of nicotine a conspiracy theory ? It's a well known fact. My opinion on online poker gaming it's an analogy to this well known fact, it's an example.
@Troll/Martyr Riggie: - I know what a internet troll is
@Youtube riggie - ..

Up to present there hasn't been any evidence that the cards aren't dealt fairly.

Well, then my stay here is ended, cause, and I'm sorry to disappoint you but there will never be any evidence that the cards aren't fairly dealt. The long term percentage of odds and hands, that is the ONLY valid proof of fairly or unfairly dealing will always be 50/50, online poker sites will manage that. But as I said, that doesn't mean the online poker isn't rigged. So in my view, if this discussion is only about that, then you're in a wild goose chase.

3ozBacardi's been working on his theory that he loses 80% of the hands he's a 70% favorite in for 4+ years, I'm sure pretty soon he'll figure out how to run filters in PT4 to prove it.

Dude, I was just trying to help you understand your culture a bit better. Nobody likes or respects a riggie that pretends he is not a riggie, so man up and charge into your paranoid culture. I offered you lots of variations to look over to help you pick which flavor of riggie you want to be moving forward with life.

The stats riggie had 323 posts, not 11, and it is interesting you regard 11 as insignificant when 3 hands were plenty for you.


The conspiracy riggie will help you learn about how the rigs can be in ways you never expected, and you might be able to expand on your morality thing you have going vs vices like smoking and gambling.

He said a lot of things were known facts when they were just his opinion, so you should be able to relate and learn from him.


The troll riggie may add depth to your troll routine (and obviously I have assumed that is what you mainly are, though even so lots of others are limited mentally in the way you portray).

The youtube riggie just about all riggies worship, so it is a requirement that you watch his videos.


You have all the qualities of a guy who will last 1-2 days and then move on with your life, as limited as that is, so I am literally trying to help you make a better use of your time here, and also embrace your culture.

You know everything I am saying is true, because they are all facts.


All the best.

Attempting to shift the focus to me won't work. My language skills (or lack thereof) have nothing to do with the question at hand.

You claimed an objective fact (the deal is rigged).

Prove it. You also claimed you were able to discern it within three hands. Should be a cinch.

Why? Before you can get to "why" you have to get past "if."

You are not obligated to provide proof, which is fine. I'm pointing out that you have failed to do so.

There's no attack, provocation or demonstration of superiority insisting that objective claims be supported by evidence before one accepts them as fact.

Poetry.

From Wiki:

"Some consider statistics a mathematical body of science that pertains to the collection, analysis, interpretation or explanation, and presentation of data,[5] while others consider it a branch of mathematics[6] concerned with collecting and interpreting data."

anybody who plays long enough knows it's rigged

This thread is at the top of google so shills will still be on here in 50 years if online poker is still legal then which i doubt

can you prove it's rigged no but can you prove it's not rigged no