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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:20 PM   #6076
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
... it would be an even bigger waste of time if he tried to satisfy every vague request from paranoid posters who will never be happy with any answer that does not meet their expectations.
Funny argument. Players and users have never seen any audit from PokerStar as the site has been hiding this information and you are referring to answers. This question has never been answered in the history of online poker.

Forget the “any answers” you are refering to that have been submitted by shills, PS employees and voluntary site defender crusaders. I believe players are not really interested in that nor in your answers, personal rants and observation on individuals’ mental state who dare to ask a full system audit from the operator. What players want is the sites finally provide EVIDENCE that their operation is really fully audited.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:20 PM   #6077
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Well, I disagree with that. I believe it is possible to design a software system that is rigged and in the meantime its output fits into the statistically expected values. I think such system is possible by deploying system driven bot player accounts and redirecting winning hands to those accounts or using another tricks that have been discussed in here earlier that increase the revenue for the site.

I understand you write software for statistical purpose, which is great, but if it is possible to design some kind of rigged software that produces statistically fit data then your software and its output will be kind of useless and would prove nothing. I think software engineers like myself, yourself or others who contribute to this thread should try to come up with a proof of concept for rigged poker software. It will be clear and measurable whether the rigged data fits into the statistically expected data set. If it turns out that it is not possible to come up with such a system than you are obviously right about the traceability of rigged data within a large data set.

What do you think?

You also need to add in that every single person involved in this, whether programming, or managing, for hundreds of different sites all have kept their mouth shut about this massive conspiracy/fraud. You seem to casually ignore that massive issue conveniently.

By the way, your theory is extremely paranoid in nature, if you wanted another example of that.

Remember also, when he says it is impossible and impractical that you need to reconfigure your beliefs to ignore that somehow.


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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Funny argument. Players and users have never seen any audit from PokerStar as the site has been hiding this information and you are referring to answers. This question has never been answered in the history of online poker.
In the time you have taken to write your dozen posts today about this you could have easily emailed the sites to ask them your concerns. Just do that already.

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Forget the “any answers” you are refering to that have been submitted by shills, PS employees and voluntary site defender crusaders. I believe players are not really interested in that nor in your answers, personal rants and observation on individuals’ mental state who dare to ask a full system audit from the operator. What players want is the sites finally provide EVIDENCE that their operation is really fully audited.
Believing the world is full of "shills, PS employees and voluntary site defender crusaders" simply because they question your opinions is a sign of paranoia in case you are wondering. A pretty serious one at that.

If you need magical evidence, how about - hmm I know

Email the sites and ask. See what they say. You keep avoiding this for some reason, why?
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:24 PM   #6078
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Funny argument. Players and users have never seen any audit from PokerStar as the site has been hiding this information and you are referring to answers. This question has never been answered in the history of online poker.

Forget the “any answers” you are refering to that have been submitted by shills, PS employees and voluntary site defender crusaders. I believe players are not really interested in that nor in your answers, personal rants and observation on individuals’ mental state who dare to ask a full system audit from the operator. What players want is the sites finally provide EVIDENCE that their operation is really fully audited.
Well at the time of posting this there seem to be over 27 thousand players on PS who are happy to play there without all the paraphernalia that the paranoid rigtards think they want.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:32 PM   #6079
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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... can't just rig the site in favor of house bots and say that it's undetectable. If house bots receive a disproportionate amount of winning hands, then their opponents, legitimate players, must receive a disproportionate amount of losing hands. This should be detectable statistically by an individual player looking at their own results.
Well, if that would be the case then such thing that winning poker player would not exist at all. A winning player supposedly have more winning hands or/and play better and the existence of winning players do not modify the statistically expected values. So why a site deployed bot account can’t do what a winning player does and if the site deployed bot account does what a winning player does how that would be detectable statistically?

Anyway, I will try to come up with scenarios about rigged software and deals and (hopefully) you will tell me if that is technically, logically or from statistical viewpoint is not doable.

Now I have to go.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:34 PM   #6080
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I thought Meares patented that idea. New account Stephen?
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confirmed - I should've guessed when he was trolling me within his first three posts.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:37 PM   #6081
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, if that would be the case then such thing that winning poker player would not exist at all. A winning player supposedly have more winning hands or/and play better and the existence of winning players do not modify the statistically expected values. So why a site deployed bot account can’t do what a winning player does and if the site deployed bot account does what a winning player does how that would be detectable statistically?
Winning players win because they play poker better than bad players, not because the deck is rigged in their favor. So if a sites deploys bots that play poker well, that has nothing whatsoever to do with a site being rigged.

This topic is about the sites being rigged. House controlled bots receiving random cards but playing good poker would not seem to have much to do with the topic imo.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:43 PM   #6082
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, if that would be the case then such thing that winning poker player would not exist at all. A winning player supposedly have more winning hands or/and play better and the existence of winning players do not modify the statistically expected values. So why a site deployed bot account can’t do what a winning player does and if the site deployed bot account does what a winning player does how that would be detectable statistically?
Now this is the good, juicy paranoid stuff. Layers and layers of made up unprovable beliefs piled together.

Ever consider they just make money getting rake from every game they deal? May not be as romantic or fun, but makes a bit more sense.


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Anyway, I will try to come up with scenarios about rigged software and deals and (hopefully) you will tell me if that is technically, logically or from statistical viewpoint is not doable.
That's the problem with your theories. You make them up and you do not worry about such trivial matters like whether they are logical or practical or even possible. Hint, that's another sign of... well you know what.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:48 PM   #6083
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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You also need to add in that every single person involved in this, whether programming, or managing, for hundreds of different sites all have kept their mouth shut about this massive conspiracy/fraud. You seem to casually ignore that massive issue conveniently.
No I don't, and it is a very valid point which makes any rigged operation virtually impossible. In other hand, the Madoff type people are very good at putting place a system that is rigged and still operates for long years. So, I still would like to see that audit and not rely on your point, which is again very valid.


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Email the sites and ask. See what they say. You keep avoiding this for some reason, why?
I suggest stop wondering about what I do or don't do which seems is the central problem in your life.

You do not know what kind of email I am writing to PS and frankly it is not your business at all. This thread is for publicly discussing whether online poker is rigged, and I know it is very hard for your shills to discuss this topic without ranting and personal comments, but would be better try to do so.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:55 PM   #6084
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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No I don't, and it is a very valid point which makes any rigged operation virtually impossible. In other hand, the Madoff type people are very good at putting place a system that is rigged and still operates for long years. So, I still would like to see that audit and not rely on your point, which is again very valid.
Heh, Madoff. The paranoid visionaries poster child of choice for all unrelated "business" conspiracies. Enron must be sad to be replaced.

Dude - hundreds of poker rooms, many of which are now gone. Somewhere in all of that a bitter employee would tell by now. At least in the real world




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I suggest stop wondering about what I do or don't do which seems is the central problem in your life.
Don't over-value yourself. If you died, no one here would notice or care, which is not the point.

The fact you never email the sites with your concerns is just weird, that's all. It's like whining all day that you are hungry and ignoring people who are saying "maybe eat something."

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
You do not know what kind of email I am writing to PS and frankly it is not your business at all. This thread is for publicly discussing whether online poker is rigged, and I know it is very hard for your shills to discuss this topic without ranting and personal comments, but would be better try to do so.
Not sure why you are so defensive. All you have to do is show your emails and their responses. Quite easy and based on the real world, unlike your theories.

Oh yeah, if you are hungry I suggest eating. Or don't actually.

All the best.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:57 PM   #6085
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I suggest stop wondering about what I do or don't do which seems is the central problem in your life.
It's really the problem in your life, though, isn't it?

Instead of taking the logical course and asking the poker sites the questions only they can answer you come to this forum and make a fool of yourself ranting and raving in a manner that demonstrates your paranoia all too clearly.

Monteroy is right.

Email the site and ask them.

You won't get the answers you want here.

Last edited by qpw; 07-06-2009 at 01:10 PM. Reason: tpyo
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:00 PM   #6086
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Ever consider they just make money getting rake from every game they deal?
Yes, I do and I agree that the site getting rake.

Now tell me, why you can't consider that PS and FT can make an extra 10 or 20 or 50 million per year by deploying bot accounts and keeping some portions of the deposit for the house. Don't forget we are talking about the traditionally criminal linked gambling industry with Madoff type of business owners.

Anyway, lets wait if such proof of concept about the bot account is possible at all, if it is detectable then nothing to discuss.

Take care.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:10 PM   #6087
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Now tell me, why you can't consider that PS and FT can make an extra 10 or 20 or 50 million per year by deploying bot accounts
We have already pointed out to you that:

a) If the house is running bot which are winning by skill then it isn't a rigging issue.

b) If the house is running bots and giving them an unfair advantage by rigging the deal then it will leave artifacts in the HH statistics.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:10 PM   #6088
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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... ranting and raving ... You won't get the answers you want here.
Well, here is so far the only person is ranting is you.

And let make it clear again: I expect no answer from you at all, to be honest who the f...k care what is your opinion about anything – I am just unlucky that you are here in 24/7 and ranting to everyone including me.

I suggest finding some life outside of this thread and ignore my posts if they are so paranoids. Ok?

I expect Josem the PS employee will make publicly available the full system audit of PS here and provide evidence that PS’s operation is indeed audited and its all aspects controlled by the gaming authority.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:13 PM   #6089
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Yes, I do and I agree that the site getting rake.

Now tell me, why you can't consider that PS and FT can make an extra 10 or 20 or 50 million per year by deploying bot accounts and keeping some portions of the deposit for the house. Don't forget we are talking about the traditionally criminal linked gambling industry with Madoff type of business owners.

Anyway, lets wait if such proof of concept about the bot account is possible at all, if it is detectable then nothing to discuss.

Take care.
I do not take people's creative delusions at face value, and in addition in this industry there is a ton of data available that has been analyzed by those who know what they are doing in that regard (unlike you), who have thusfar shown nothing wrong.

Add to that the impracticality of the conspiracy (hundreds - thousands of people never telling) and the result is for now I believe the game is fair.

If someone qualified with actual data shows otherwise I will reconsider that opinion, but no way will I change it simply because a random paranoid guy has an active imagination and no actual proof or data

Cliffnotes:

If spade came here and said "guys, we have a problem" I would be quite concerned.

When you come here and say "I can imagine ways where we could have a problem" and tell us stories of house bots and mafias, then I am entertained for a while, nothing more.

All the best.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:17 PM   #6090
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Well, here is so far the only person is ranting is you.
Evidence?

Quote:
I am just unlucky that you are here in 24/7 and ranting to everyone including me.
24/7?

Evidence?

When are you going to stop just making things up to support your feeble, paranoid, case?

Quote:
I expect Josem the PS employee will make publicly available the full system audit of PS here and provide evidence that PS’s operation is indeed audited and its all aspects controlled by the gaming authority.
As well as suffering from a clear case of paranoia and an inability to discern the difference between genuine facts and things that you've just made up on the spur of the moment it seems that you are also suffering from delusions of grandeur if you really think they are going to go to all that trouble just to appease you.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:26 PM   #6091
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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If spade came here and said "guys, we have a problem" I would be quite concerned.

When you come here and say "I can imagine ways where we could have a problem" and tell us stories of house bots and mafias, then I am entertained for a while, nothing more.

All the best.
Fair enough and very good. At least we do not have to waste each other time in the future by discussing this topic :-))

Let’s hope Josem security expert the PS employee will bring that full system audit about PokerStar, because players would be interested in that instead of reading shill comments here over and over, and perhaps Josem could provide some rational explanation why PS has been hiding and not willing to provide this information for 8 years.

Take care and all the best you too.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:31 PM   #6092
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Anyway, I will try to come up with scenarios about rigged software and deals and (hopefully) you will tell me if that is technically, logically or from statistical viewpoint is not doable.
Let me save you some time and give you a framework to devise a scheme.

For reasons I've posted many times before and which should be self-evident, for any scheme to result in more profit for the site, it must result in more players sitting in seats on a 24/7 average. That's how the site makes rake. To increase rake there must be a larger pool of money in play. And since card manipulation isn't going to increase average stakes played, it therefore must increase the 24/7 active player average.

Second, the scheme must produce a meaningful amount of increased revenue for the site to offset the risk. I've proposed a 10% threshold before, sustainable over time, and that's really still too low on a risk/reward basis but makes it easier for you to try and devise a scheme.

Then you have to show why your proposed scheme would not be easily detectable using available hand histories.

This doesn't even address any technical hurdles, or the problem of maintaining secrecy. I know you think those are trivial, but they aren't. Perhaps you can address them once you have devised a plausible scheme.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:31 PM   #6093
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Let’s hope Josem security expert the PS employee will bring that full system audit about PokerStar, because players would be interested in that instead of reading shill comments here over and over, and perhaps Josem could provide some rational explanation why PS has been hiding and not willing to provide this information for 8 years.
You really don't get it do you?

In your little fantasy world a large poker site is going to suddenly up publish a load of data just because of the paranoid delusions of a few rigtards on an internet forum.

Get Over Yourself.

You just ain't that important.


Now, you have a nice day, y'hear?
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:31 PM   #6094
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I suggest finding some life outside of this thread and ignore my posts if they are so paranoids. Ok?
hey big fella, can you clarify exactly what you hope to accomplish with your posts about something you suspect but can't prove?

do you think your half-baked theories are really convincing anyone to stop playing online? also, why do you care?

Personally, I think the Church of Scientology is full of ****, I don't care if people buy Dianetics books, which is why I don't troll L. Ron Hubbard forums. Why are you trolling here?

Last edited by Markusgc; 07-06-2009 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:32 PM   #6095
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Fair enough and very good. At least we do not have to waste each other time in the future by discussing this topic :-))

Let’s hope Josem security expert the PS employee will bring that full system audit about PokerStar, because players would be interested in that instead of reading shill comments here over and over, and perhaps Josem could provide some rational explanation why PS has been hiding and not willing to provide this information for 8 years.
You could email them for this information. Would take 1 minute .



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ake care and all the best you too.
Same. Thanks for the entertainment.

All the best.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:41 PM   #6096
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... if you really think they are going to go to all that trouble just to appease you.
What kind of trouble?

The Isle of Man gaming authority regulation clearly states that the system must be fully audited, it is under the full control of the authority including the source code and software builds just name a few from the regulatory requirements. As for PS, the company states that fully complies with the authority. So there is no trouble, because PS honest business the audit is certainly exists. If it exist (and I am sure it does exist) then it can be published within no time and prove that not only the Isle of Man based operation but the London and foreign based data centres are under the control of the tiny Isle of Man gaming authority.

There is no trouble qpw, and let Josem security expert from PS prove that PS is indeed honest business. Why your are so worry? Josem proves it and everyone will be happy.

Ok, I really have to go, take care.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:45 PM   #6097
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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What kind of trouble?
Really, any kind of trouble would be too much just to satisfy a few internet rigtards.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:50 PM   #6098
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http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...ine-poker.html

There's some decent articles on there.
Well isn't that interesting... Ed Miller is basically saying the same stuff I have been saying (also read his comments a few screens down @ Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:24:14 PM):

a) There is incentive to manipulate the deal to favor certain players (new, European, just come back after a long break, almost busto, etc.).

b) We can't just assume a manipulated deal would show up in statistical analysis. Just thinking about it for a few minutes I came up with a plausible way to cover your tracks by swapping out the two affected cards (the one that should have been dealt and the one that actually was) later in a meaningless spot.

c) It's certainly doable from a code POV if you implement it right and cover your tracks. What's scary to me on that is that they already do it in triple draw. There is some code that checks some condition, then deals the player a different card based on that condition. Just doing that is probably 80% of the actual programming you'd need to rig a flop, turn or river card to favor one player over another.

d) We can't just assume that because it might risk the future of the site, no one would ever try it out of greed.


Unlike most of you guys I don't take it on faith that these problems would automatically show up in a giant board-card distribution bar chart. I do think a huge database of showdowns (as I described) combined with information about the players involved (location, join date, online BR, etc.), and the equity involved in the showdown - could me mined to look for any anomalies.

Either that or a hard-core 3rd-party code audit to look at the architecture of the code - particularly how the "shuffled deck" object is passed around and accessed by the different parts of the program. As long as it's not a mysterious black box to most of the rank-and-file programmers, I would believe that there is no giant conspiracy among all the people working on the site.

Just like Ed though, I still think it's pretty unlikely. I would just like to feel 100% certain it's not being done at the major sites. And don't say that's impossible, because I just described two ways that you could essentially prove to a reasonable person that the site is not rigged. If this weren't the wild west and someone brought a lawsuit claiming PS was rigged (assuming it was deemed legit enough to go forward), this is exactly the kind of investigation that would happen.

Last edited by suzzer99; 07-06-2009 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:59 PM   #6099
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Well isn't that interesting... Ed Miller is basically saying the same stuff I have been saying:

a) There is incentive to manipulate the deal to favor certain players (new, European, just come back after a long break, etc.).

b) We can't just assume a manipulated deal would show up in statistical analysis. Just thinking about it for a few minutes I came up with a plausible way to cover your tracks by swapping out the two affected cards (the one that should have been dealt and the one that actually was) later in a meaningless spot.

c) It's certainly doable from a code POV if you implement it right and cover your tracks. What's scary to me on that is that they already do it in triple draw. There is some code that checks some condition, then deals the player a different card based on that condition. Just doing that is probably 80% of the actual programming you'd need to rig a flop, turn or river card to favor one player over another.

d) We can't just assume that because it might risk the future of the site, no one would ever try it out of greed.


Unlike most of you guys I don't take it on faith that these problems would automatically show up in a giant board-card distribution bar chart. I do think a huge database of showdowns (as I described) combined with information about the players involved (location, join date, online BR, etc.), and the equity involved in the showdown - could me mined to look for any anomalies.

Either that or a hard-core 3rd-party code audit to look at the architecture of the code - particularly how the "shuffled deck" object is passed around and accessed by the different parts of the program. As long as it's not a mysterious black box to most of the rank-and-file programmers, I would believe that there is no giant conspiracy among all the people working on the site.

Just like Ed though, I still think it's pretty unlikely. I would just like to feel 100% certain it's not being done at the major sites. And don't say that's impossible, because I just described two ways that you could essentially prove to a reasonable person that the site is not rigged. If this weren't the wild west and someone brought a lawsuit claiming PS was rigged (assuming it was deemed legit enough to go forward), this is exactly the kind of investigation that would happen.
The main problem for the site in trying to rig the deal in favour of certain players without getting caught (and thus for those who are asserting that this is a feasible thing to do) is this:

For there to be any point in doing it it must be noticable to losing players (since these are the ones that all these theories see as the beneficiaries).

Now, how in hell can the effect be noticable to players who, by definition, are not very good, when at one and the same time it is undetectable (apart from a vague feeling of not winning as often as they should) to players who are actually better at understanding the probability maths involved?

This is the problem that will come back and bite you time after time after time if you want to propose schemes like this.
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Old 07-06-2009, 02:00 PM   #6100
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
hey big fella, can you clarify exactly what you hope to accomplish with your posts about something you suspect but can't prove?

do you think your half-baked theories are really convincing anyone to stop playing online? also, why do you care?

Personally, I think the Church of Scientology is full of ****, I don't care if people buy Dianetics books, which is why I don't troll L. Ron Hubbard forums. Why are you trolling here?
Hello, I hope you are well.

To be honest I have no idea what are you talking about. I found your site and this thread that is dedicated for discussing rigged online poker software and I was under the impression that it is public domain where this topic can be discussed. Being software professional and interested in poker I found this topic is fascinating mainly from software and IT system viewpoint, but from business process viewpoint as well.

So I am in a thread that dedicated for rigged online poker and discussing our experiences, observations, feelings about the Madoff type of criminals.

But what are you doing here? (Apart from the fact that you are an admin and get paid to be here :-)))

I find quite unusual your admin methodology Markus. You worry about people who actually came here to write about the subject of the thread, but you got nothing to say about people like qpw and others who rants, personally attacks users that write actually about the subject of the thread and makes impossible having a conversation about the subject of the thread, just because they think it is an irrational topic.

Ok, take care.
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