Many training site instructors other than those at Cardrunners.

Well, then aside from some graphs of running below expectation (where those your graphs? Other people's? if they were yours, how does the graph look not cherry picked, but from start to finish. You provided very little context for that data.

What other actual number crunching evidence do you have. Why don't you kick this debate up a notch and show us something concrete after your year of research?

Well, I have to admit that from technicality viewpoint it was pretty stupid and from software analysis viewpoint it was largely idiotic to make that analogy about the 1024 digit integer. That number was derived by the possible number of cards can be shuffled (2^225), which was multiplied by the number of shuffles within a deal (hands, flop, turn and river). That number had been increased with my growing anger about the PS poker mafia which has added quite a few digits to the operation :-))) Anyhow, please accept my apologies for bringing that technically unreasonable arguments to this thread, I should not pisses of technically sound people with such a rubbish.

I was trying to make a point with that unreasonable argument. My point was and it is that being a software engineer in software security field and being familiar with the Intel hardware RNG that deployed by these PS criminals to obtain entropy sources, it just seems surreal and bizarre to me what PS delivers to the players. I demonstrated two consecutive deals which probability would be around 1:3 Billion, another player demonstrated scenarios that probability is 1: Billions. These demonstrated events should certainly not happen on a daily bases given the number of hands delivered by PS, but such events are still happening on a daily bases at PS. It seems that is just not random. Off course, I have no doubt that the Intel RNG generates random data, but I am quite positive that PS alters the randomly generated data at some point and delivers rigged deals.

My concerns remain the same:
a) PS has never published the full audit report of its IT operation (the Cigital report on the RNG covers only one tiny element of a very complex system) and never demonstrated that the whole system - that is composite of many software modules- is audited and the randomly generated data is not altered within the system at some point
b) PS has never published credible audit report or proved that the deployed software components in all data centres including the business continuity data centres (that are obviously not under the watch of the gaming authority) indeed verified and signed by the gaming authority, the digital signature of ALL software components at every location is verified and continuesly checked and therefore modified, and only audited software components have been deployed.

It seems you are familiar with PS’s system or perhaps Josem, the PokerStar's employee can publish those audit materials and provide explanation how the tiny Isle of Man gaming authority ensures that the software components at the London based operation and foreign data centres indeed the verified and audited software components. Perhaps you or Josem can provide evidence that ALL deployed software components’ source code is under the gaming authority control, ALL deployed components are digitally signed and the signatures are verified by the authority prior to deployment as well as checked during the operation. I am sure you or Josem can provide evidence that the full audit of the system exists and the regulation driven policies are indeed enforced by the gaming authority. And please explain, why PS has set up their own ISP to handle the IP traffic and why this ISP operates the way it does operate: it is basically an outlaw technology company, being not member of any professional organisations?

Prior collecting money from users PS claims that the integrity of its system is not compromised, therefore I think it is reasonable to ask evidence to back their statement.

PS:
as always I apologise for my poor English, it is still not my mother tounge

I wrote an email (below) to kahnawake gaming commission (since they are "regulating" the site I play on). For now no answer. Do I have any hope with emails like this? Is anyone in contact with them?

I want to see what the heck they are actually regulating. To me it doesn't help that they "regulate", I want to see what exactly they are doing. I don't know if you guys follow the unfolding of current economic crisis, but I can assure you that:

1) The regulators did very poor job in the crisis.
2) I would go even further than that - imo the regulators actually cooperate(d) with government and corporations.
3) The little man is constantly lied to and robbed for the benefit of the corporations.
4) It was all a part of the grand scheme and carefully orchestrated.


Dear Sir or Madam,


I am a long time professional poker player and in recent months I am suffering such a terryfing cards (at limit holdem games) that I decided to inquiry about site fairness.


Is it possible for your commission to test the randomness of the deal I was recieving? If yes, how does this procedure looks like, what are the costs involved, etc.


If you cannot test the deal for a specific player, what other kind of tests are you capable of performing?


Your response will be greatly appreciated,

jagnje

Unfortunately the tiny gaming authorities provide nothing more than the marketing cloud about regulated operation for these poker criminals that operates the poker sites.

The data centres are mainly outside of the authorities’ territories, the business continuity data centres are by definition certainly not at the authorities’ location, therefore the authorities have absolutely no idea what kind of software components deployed by the poker criminals, and therefore they cannot verify whether the software system delivers random deals.

Basically you are saying that the only way to fight them is to avoid them?

Actually, that's the intelligent response, isn't it.

When all is said and done, if you really feel that any site is untrustworthy, simply stop playing on it.

Easy.

Tell you what.

If you can give us the equivelant audit reports and other safeguards from a couple of major banks and a couple of major insurance companies and the tax departments of a couple of G8 governments I'll join your campaign to get the same from PS.

No, I am not suggesting that - only entered the sad reality about the gaming authorities.

I think it is very good that you have contacted the authorities and requested clarification about the operation of your gaming provider. Many more users should do that. As the gaming authorities have no adequate answer for your concerns, eventually it will became obvious for the public that the tiny gaming authorities virtually and practically can not do a lot in order to ensure the integrity of the game.

In other hand they are the beneficiaries of the booming online poker - the benefit is manifested in increasing number of $100K jobs at the authorities, so they have primary interest to keep alive the marketing cloud about regulated games, so million of technically unaware users believes “wow, the game is regulated”.

Don’t get me wrong, the regulations are excellent, for example the Isle of Man gaming regulation is very well draft, organised, high standard and professional. The only problem is that the tiny authority is physically and technically unable to enforce the regulation on PokerStars’s highly conspired massive IT system.

But at least the KGC will send you a free foil hat is you ask them which should make all the problems go away.

Pro primo, you should bring up that argument in a bank regulatory debate where people are concerned about the integrity of financial institution. In here we are concerned about the integrity of online poker games.

Pro secundo, the financial sector has been operating for years in such manners. For example the payment card industry is regulated by the PCI DSS standards and the policies are indeed enforced.

Pro tertio, I am glad you have mentioned the financial sector in which the main fraud was committed by Madoff who has the same origin and similarly frequent visitor in Israel just like the PS poker mafia.

I think you should be in an instutute for the terminally paranoid. Pro tempore.

The fact is, that PokerStar runs the whole IP traffic through on its own, proprietary ISP at where the gaming authority having absolutely zero control on the submitted data. Smart move from the IBM veteran who set up the PS mafia: if you have your own ISP there is no way data alteration can be prevented by gaming authorities which have no jurisdiction on ISP's operation.

Before you start the usual rants and personal attacks, your usual input to this thread, I think you should calm down and just let Josem provide the evidences about the audits.

If the software system is fully audited and controlled by the authorities than everything is cool, this thread can be closed and you will not have to spend your time 24/7 in this thread to send rant to poeple whom observation on certain situation and opinion is different than yours.

You appear on the thread and start ranting about conspiracies and the mafia and then tell someone else to calm down.

ROFLMAO.

Why is it that you rigtards are so good at unintentional irony?

And I have to tell you, having a laugh at the latest crazy posting from the rigtards is a beneficially calming activity in a busy day.

You are obviously completely clueless about the role of the ISP and, from what you've written above, the concept of TCP/IP in the first place.

You probably could have ended that at "stupid" though I am glad you got the mafia angle back in it. Nice to have that viewpoint back after all the gimmick bad beat whiners lately. Were you the entropy effect guy as well?


You should show the hands you are talking about when making these claims to remind people (even if at the end of the post).

I assume one is regarding the two Omaha hands that were actually not even close to being the same given the following:

- They had different cards in them
- They were at different tables at different stakes
- One hand featured 3 all in another 2 all in
- The EVs of each hand were significantly different
- The board cards were completely different

I just got Ks4d7h2c and the next hand got 8d5sAhKd. You know the odds of getting those 2 specific hands in that specific order in a row? It is in the billions or trillions to one area.

So what, that's the case with any 2 Omaha hands in a row in hindsight. Oh yeah, yours were not even hands in sequence either...

Feel free to repost the hands and show how they are the exact same given all of these massive differences.

Let's be honest though, the last thing you will ever do is repost the hands and acknowledge how different they are as that does not serve your creative agenda .


Don't worry, even if spade's billion hand database analysis shows it is legitimate you will still think it "seems" rigged, though it will be funny to see the creative ways riggedologists explain how his analysis is flawed ( I bet "he is in on it" is the most common or maybe "Stars knows what he looks for so hides the riggedness in what looks like real data")



Email them this and post their reply. Also realize that even if they did everything you think they need to do you would still believe it was a mafia run organization that paid off the people checking them. That's how paranoia works.


Email them your concerns and post their replies. It might be interesting to read even though nothing on earth will ever change your beliefs.

All the best.

Your argument is basically a defense of sites, no matter what. I want to make it clear that it is WRONG if they rig the games, you say: well, if they are rigged, simply go away. Very very interesting, I may add. I won't say that you are a shill, but please, can you tell me, where exactly is the PROOF that the sites are not rigged. And don't tell me that they don't have to prove it, they have to, since they claim that the games are fair.

To me it seems that simply saying that you are under scrutiny of some gaming commission is enough. Well maybe that is enough for you, but not for me. I realize how crooked some people really are, do you?

About 2 thousand trillion, actually.

Guess we just proved it was rigged based on my 2 hands.

Oops!

It is exactly the same defence that civilised people have been making of anything and everything for a very long time.

If you want to credibly accuse someone of something, first you must provide evidence.

It's as simple as that.

Of course.

WRONG!

I say if you think they are rigged, either provide proper, credible, evidence which will get an investigation underway or, if you have no evidence but just a vague feeling, either buy a foil hat or just stop playing on sites you don't trust.

I have a policy now, that I won't discuss proof with people until they have provided me with PROOF that that are not child molestors and PROOF that they have no criminal convictions for abusing little children.

Please supply that proof.

Yes, and if I had evidence that someone was crooked I would take it to the police and they would act on it.

If i just had a vague feeling that someone was crooked I simply would no longer have dealings with them.

It's an easy and straightforward strategy. Why don't YOU try it?

Damn!

QPW, my man, you are a piece of work.. I'm really curious as to your age

I am not sure what are you asking. I have already posted the hands here, they are in this thread you can find it within my earlier post, the posted deals were in sequence, obviously they are not the same deals, but it was established that the probability of such largely similar deals happens in a sequence is about 1:3 billion. My concern is that 1:3 Billion events happens on daily bases at PS that delivers no more than 100 million deals a day, and because the lack of transparency in PS operation the whole thing is just bizarre.

Anyway, you are quite wrong that I made up my mind about the conspiracy at PS, I just stated the fact about the origins of the owner which can be quite relevant in the mafia linked gambling industry. Once Josem the PS employee submit the full audit report of the IT system (including audit of the business continuity data centres) I will understand that the existence of such audits and the statistical data together proves that the game at PS is not rigged.

The statistical data without the audit and transparent operation is not sufficient evidence as it is clearly possible to design a rigged system that data output fits into the statistically expected data set.

It is a mystery why PokerStar feel not necessary to publish details about the system audit if their operation is not rigged. If you know why please let me know.

I know.

What a ***ing bastard!

I come on here and defend people from those who attack their honesty without providing a single scrap of credible evidence.

Honestly, I don't know how I live with myself, I really don't.

How fascinating for you.