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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-01-2009, 09:06 AM   #5801
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by redlotus View Post
This particular part of the program collects the hand information from all hands that made it to the river and the hole cards for at least two players are known. From there, it calculates the equity % and compares it to the actual win %(user can decide if the equity percent is calculated pre-flop, on the flop, or on the turn). All equity calcs are derived from heads-up matches, so, for example, if three sets of hole cards are known, the program will create 3 heads-up matches, with the third set of hole cards in each match up used as dead cards.
This is pretty interesting. Be sure you take into account that the players who did not make it to the street being analysed still made decisions before that point, and they introduce card removal effects. The only pure comparision is a preflop all-in with one caller, as there are no post-flop decisions at all. In all other cases, there are, and the deal of the turn and river is not totally random for the cards that are seen. It's tricky to adjust for those effects, and impossible to account for all of them.

For the equity calcs I use a modified version of Steve Brecher's showdown code, and I have it using multithreading. I can do about 50 million enumerations a second on a 2Ghz dual core (that's full board enumeration for only 30 preflop all-in hands).
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:12 AM   #5802
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
This is pretty interesting. Be sure you take into account that the players who did not make it to the street being analysed still made decisions before that point, and they introduce card removal effects. The only pure comparision is a preflop all-in with one caller, as there are no post-flop decisions at all. In all other cases, there are, and the deal of the turn and river is not totally random for the cards that are seen. It's tricky to adjust for those effects, and impossible to account for all of them.
That is why Hero's cards are included in all calculations, whether or not hero made it to the river. This counter-balances the card removal effects a little bit. Obviously you're still going to see some (notice the far left and far right regions of the graph I posted where the trend line flattens), but it's the best I can do and users will have to take that into account.

-red
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:55 PM   #5803
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Unless you are this guy:

The Lion would run right past your buddy to get to the delicious Bacon Man.

Not really, we are made of meat too and he has not realy got much meat on him. he is ful of holes.
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:59 PM   #5804
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Not really, we are made of meat too and he has not realy got much meat on him. he is ful of holes.
Less commenting on bacon man, more calling people shrills plz.

Unless you think the bacon man is a shrill.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:00 PM   #5805
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Not really, we are made of meat too and he has not realy got much meat on him. he is ful of holes.
Woosh!
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:37 PM   #5806
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I'd literally bet my life on it that online poker is rigged.
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:46 PM   #5807
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I'd literally bet my life on it that online poker is rigged.
I'm available to escrow this bet.
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:48 PM   #5808
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I'm available to escrow this bet.
Yes I know you are a sucker Marky-mark, you don't have to remind me again
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:53 PM   #5809
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Yes I know you are a sucker Marky-mark, you don't have to remind me again
demise carries less

Random Word Generator (Plus)
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:11 PM   #5810
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Alexd10 View Post
Do you really think companies the size or stars and FTP woud rig there cards? ^^
Nothing about rigged or not rigged but maybe they are so big because they are rigged? If they are so big and rich rigging games they have reason to do it . Socrates says that its logic.
I enclose picture as evidence.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:16 PM   #5811
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Too many fishy things happening to believe that it's not rigged.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:26 PM   #5812
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

The proof that online poker is rigged is simple : there are many talks about RNG generator and independent companies watching on RNG but there are no companies watching that this random cards are randomly distributed on random desks. For Pokerstars, Fulltilt and other companies is no problem pay small contribution for independent company to do it.
In this case all speeches about rigged or not rigged are pointless and everybody can be sure : ya, their business is clear and honest.
WHY THEY DON´T DO IT?
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:28 PM   #5813
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Yea I had few quid lef in an account i had so I though I would have a 'dable' at the low stakes. The guy who was winning every hand was there bullying me every hand eventually I flopped an ace and went all in assuming he had nowt but of course he had AK.
OK fair enough my bad play, then a little later, I have JJ I make a big raise, he calls
flop 884 I'am all in so is he, I got he he only had a 4 bbut of course the trun is a 4 as well.

That's just one typical hand of many, anyway earlier they stole all my poker poiints, they decided to make them worthless - how nice.

Then they had introductory freerolls where of course I get a load of luck to 'soften me up', of course when it comes to cash games I the opposite of that luck.
Anyway that's another site I won't play at anymore, they cheated me out of my points thus establishing the fact they believe cheatin pays so F**K EM!!
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:02 PM   #5814
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I have played on American Poker II machines for about 10 years and on Poker Stars at least 300.000 hands.Dealing cards on poker machines looks as random as Ps dealing cards but poker machines are well known rigged to keep a percent for the house.I doubt someone can prove that poker machines are rigged without seeing the source code.
On poker machines after I cashed out I started to lose...
On PS after I cashed out I started to lose...
So,I don't know about math,probability,statistics,etc.,but I can say that I know both poker machines and internet poker very well and internet poker seems similar to poker machines only difference is that everybody is some day the house(wining money,cashout) and other day the gambler(losing money,unbelievable badbeats, etc.).
Another funny thing is that after i sign up on a poker site, first 1-2 weeks i am a poker god,i'm winning no matter what,no bead beats,and after that period or after i cash out i became the worst poker player ever.
This is just a opinion,it's not based on statistics,but i think that poker sites should make public the dealing cards source code( if dealing cards results it's really unpredictable this shouldnt be a problem) and the programers will say if it's random or not.

P.S. : Sorry for my bad english(it's not my native language)
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:04 PM   #5815
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

You know, you never hear from the beginners who deposit, run like crap and never play again. Only the ones who run hot, withdraw some and then complain about how it is rigged to favor beginners.
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:59 PM   #5816
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
Too many fishy things happening to believe that it's not rigged.
Properly done statistical analysis and common sense > random guy thinking he sees something fishy. If it was the reverse this whole world would be in a state of chaos given all the wacky theories about all sorts of things people have :. Well, except for Lizard people - they are real.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PavelC View Post
The proof that online poker is rigged is simple : there are many talks about RNG generator and independent companies watching on RNG but there are no companies watching that this random cards are randomly distributed on random desks. For Pokerstars, Fulltilt and other companies is no problem pay small contribution for independent company to do it.
In this case all speeches about rigged or not rigged are pointless and everybody can be sure : ya, their business is clear and honest.
WHY THEY DON´T DO IT?
The same can apply to UFOs, doomsday predictions, Bigfoot, and all sorts of other fanciful beliefs. Lots talk about them but there are no official companies or governments checking to see if it is all true. In fact, many believe the government is in on it as well. WHY THEY DON'T DO IT?

Then again, Lizard People are real.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
Yea I had few quid lef in an account i had so I though I would have a 'dable' at the low stakes. The guy who was winning every hand was there bullying me every hand eventually I flopped an ace and went all in assuming he had nowt but of course he had AK.
OK fair enough my bad play, then a little later, I have JJ I make a big raise, he calls
flop 884 I'am all in so is he, I got he he only had a 4 bbut of course the trun is a 4 as well.

That's just one typical hand of many, anyway earlier they stole all my poker poiints, they decided to make them worthless - how nice.

Then they had introductory freerolls where of course I get a load of luck to 'soften me up', of course when it comes to cash games I the opposite of that luck.
Anyway that's another site I won't play at anymore, they cheated me out of my points thus establishing the fact they believe cheatin pays so F**K EM!!
Wow, that site spent a ton of man hours just to screw you out of your 5 bucks or so. I mean the elaborate setups with freerolls to soften you up, and get you comfortable, all the while they are waiting, waiting, waiting - to strike! Poof, your 5 bucks is gone to another player ( a house bot/player I assume).

All in all a few dozen hours well spent on their part. The Lizard People would be proud.


Quote:
Originally Posted by george999 View Post
So,I don't know about math,probability,statistics,etc.,but I can say that I know both poker machines and internet poker very well
It's like the "I am not a Doctor, but I play one on TV" approach. The Lizard People invented that by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbcooper279 View Post
You know, you never hear from the beginners who deposit, run like crap and never play again. Only the ones who run hot, withdraw some and then complain about how it is rigged to favor beginners.
One never seems to hear from winning players as well, that certainly is an interesting coincidence. I suspect the Lizard People are behind that


Also, the Lizard People approve of all of the new gimmick accounts appearing. I enclose this link (which includes pictures) as evidence. Well, ok the picture is of the guy who has formed most of the Lizard People beliefs, but he kind of looks like a Lizard Person at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:20 PM   #5817
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

They prefer the term "sauroids".
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:12 PM   #5818
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Well guys, consider me converted to the rigtards side. If you'll allow me to post a few hand histories, I'll show you why.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

KE_Bjorni (BTN): $27.10
patera007 (SB): $10.00
alecgmc (BB): $13.95
bagnus (UTG): $25.60
Hero (UTG+1): $27.60
JoeCrack07 (MP): $29.50
momo3569 (CO): $9.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with A K
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, momo3569 calls $1, KE_Bjorni calls $1, patera007 calls $0.90, alecgmc calls $0.75

Flop: ($5.00) 9 4 6 (5 players)
patera007 bets $0.50, alecgmc folds, Hero raises to $2, momo3569 folds, KE_Bjorni calls $2, patera007 raises to $5, Hero folds, KE_Bjorni calls $3

Turn: ($17.00) 2 (2 players)
patera007 bets $3.75, KE_Bjorni raises to $7.50, patera007 calls $0.25 all in

River: ($25.00) K (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $25.00
KE_Bjorni mucks T T
patera007 shows K 2 (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
patera007 wins $23.80
(Rake: $1.20)

How can he possibly get all in with bottom pair? Must be because he knows the two outer K on the river is coming! Look at these other hands he played immediately after this hand:


Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

KE_Bjorni (CO): $17.10
patera007 (BTN): $23.80
alecgmc (SB): $12.95
bagnus (BB): $25.60
Hero (UTG): $25.00
JoeCrack07 (UTG+1): $29.50
momo3569 (MP): $8.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with T 3
2 folds, momo3569 raises to $0.50, 1 fold, patera007 calls $0.50, alecgmc calls $0.40, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.75) A 2 Q (3 players)
alecgmc bets $0.50, momo3569 calls $0.50, patera007 calls $0.50

Turn: ($3.25) 2 (3 players)
alecgmc bets $0.50, momo3569 calls $0.50, patera007 calls $0.50

River: ($4.75) J (3 players)
alecgmc checks, momo3569 bets $0.50, patera007 calls $0.50, alecgmc calls $0.50

Final Pot: $6.25
patera007 shows 3 Q (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
alecgmc shows A 9 (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
momo3569 shows K Q (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
alecgmc wins $5.95
(Rake: $0.30)

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

KE_Bjorni (MP): $17.10
patera007 (CO): $21.80
alecgmc (BTN): $16.90
bagnus (SB): $25.35
Hero (BB): $25.00
JoeCrack07 (UTG): $29.50
momo3569 (UTG+1): $6.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 9 4
3 folds, patera007 calls $0.25, alecgmc calls $0.25, bagnus calls $0.15, Hero checks

Flop: ($1.00) 5 5 4 (4 players)
bagnus checks, Hero checks, patera007 bets $0.50, alecgmc calls $0.50, bagnus folds, Hero folds

Turn: ($2.00) 2 (2 players)
patera007 bets $1, alecgmc calls $1

River: ($4.00) Q (2 players)
patera007 bets $1, alecgmc calls $1

Final Pot: $6.00
patera007 shows K 3 (a pair of Fives)
alecgmc shows A A (two pair, Aces and Fives)
alecgmc wins $5.75
(Rake: $0.25)


Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

KE_Bjorni (UTG+1): $17.10
patera007 (MP): $19.05
alecgmc (CO): $19.90
bagnus (BTN): $25.10
Hero (SB): $25.00
JoeCrack07 (BB): $29.50
momo3569 (UTG): $6.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with Q 3
2 folds, patera007 calls $0.25, alecgmc calls $0.25, bagnus calls $0.25, 1 fold, JoeCrack07 checks

Flop: ($1.10) 5 2 9 (4 players)
JoeCrack07 checks, patera007 bets $0.25, alecgmc raises to $0.50, bagnus folds, JoeCrack07 folds, patera007 calls $0.25

Turn: ($2.10) J (2 players)
patera007 bets $1, alecgmc raises to $2.50, patera007 raises to $7, alecgmc raises to $19.15 all in, patera007 calls $11.30 all in

River: ($38.70) T (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $38.70
patera007 shows 2 J (two pair, Jacks and Deuces)
alecgmc shows T A (a flush, Ace high)
alecgmc wins $36.80
(Rake: $1.90)


You see, obviously rigg...oh wait. I guess he's just an idiot whose range is a joker and the rules of poker card+ who got lucky in one hand where he was 10% to win. I guess I'm not converted after all.
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:15 PM   #5819
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

In case you were wondering...

[T]he extraterrestrial prison warders from the constellation Draco

They walk erect and appear to be human, living not only on the planets they come from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the earth. They have cross-bred with humans, which has created "hybrids" who are "possessed" by the full-blooded reptilians. The reptiles' hybrid reptilian-human DNA allows them to change from reptilian to human form if they consume human blood.

[T]he reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles, [who are] slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the British royal family, and the ruling political and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best they can a genetic structure — the reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'."


Icke was the original rigtard, and is a tough act to follow.
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:49 PM   #5820
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
even Jamie Gold won a donkament once.

sick sample size, sherlock.
These 400 hands were from hands where the money all went in pre flop against 1 opponent
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:36 PM   #5821
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

KE_Bjorni (BTN): $27.10
patera007 (SB): $10.00
alecgmc (BB): $13.95
bagnus (UTG): $25.60
Hero (UTG+1): $27.60
JoeCrack07 (MP): $29.50
momo3569 (CO): $9.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with A K
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, momo3569 calls $1, KE_Bjorni calls $1, patera007 calls $0.90, alecgmc calls $0.75

Flop: ($5.00) 9 4 6 (5 players)
patera007 bets $0.50, alecgmc folds, Hero raises to $2, momo3569 folds, KE_Bjorni calls $2, patera007 raises to $5, Hero folds, KE_Bjorni calls $3

Turn: ($17.00) 2 (2 players)
patera007 bets $3.75, KE_Bjorni raises to $7.50, patera007 calls $0.25 all in
What in the world is Hero doing on the flop here?
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:06 AM   #5822
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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What in the world is Hero doing on the flop here?
Not realizing there were 90 people in the pot and seeing if ATC guy would fold.

MY LEAKS ARE NOT THE ISSUE HERE!
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:12 AM   #5823
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

OK.

But man that bet is unbelievably bad.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:51 AM   #5824
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

The manner in which I lose some pots really make me think that either the RNG plays favorites, or there is a lot of soft collusion going on, giving the illusion of a bad beat.

It's probably both.

So many suspicious plays being rewarded lately, its kind of silly.
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:44 AM   #5825
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Once again BucketFoot has convinced me.

/thread
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