Two Plus Two Poker Forums The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition
 Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read TwoPlusTwo.com

 Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

 View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged? Yes 3,445 34.94% No 5,522 56.00% Undecided 893 9.06% Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

07-01-2009, 09:06 AM   #5801
Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by redlotus This particular part of the program collects the hand information from all hands that made it to the river and the hole cards for at least two players are known. From there, it calculates the equity % and compares it to the actual win %(user can decide if the equity percent is calculated pre-flop, on the flop, or on the turn). All equity calcs are derived from heads-up matches, so, for example, if three sets of hole cards are known, the program will create 3 heads-up matches, with the third set of hole cards in each match up used as dead cards.
This is pretty interesting. Be sure you take into account that the players who did not make it to the street being analysed still made decisions before that point, and they introduce card removal effects. The only pure comparision is a preflop all-in with one caller, as there are no post-flop decisions at all. In all other cases, there are, and the deal of the turn and river is not totally random for the cards that are seen. It's tricky to adjust for those effects, and impossible to account for all of them.

For the equity calcs I use a modified version of Steve Brecher's showdown code, and I have it using multithreading. I can do about 50 million enumerations a second on a 2Ghz dual core (that's full board enumeration for only 30 preflop all-in hands).

07-01-2009, 09:12 AM   #5802
redlotus
journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 375
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by spadebidder This is pretty interesting. Be sure you take into account that the players who did not make it to the street being analysed still made decisions before that point, and they introduce card removal effects. The only pure comparision is a preflop all-in with one caller, as there are no post-flop decisions at all. In all other cases, there are, and the deal of the turn and river is not totally random for the cards that are seen. It's tricky to adjust for those effects, and impossible to account for all of them.
That is why Hero's cards are included in all calculations, whether or not hero made it to the river. This counter-balances the card removal effects a little bit. Obviously you're still going to see some (notice the far left and far right regions of the graph I posted where the trend line flattens), but it's the best I can do and users will have to take that into account.

-red

07-01-2009, 01:55 PM   #5803
pen15
banned

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 627
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by KingOfFelt Unless you are this guy: The Lion would run right past your buddy to get to the delicious Bacon Man.

Not really, we are made of meat too and he has not realy got much meat on him. he is ful of holes.

07-01-2009, 01:59 PM   #5804
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by pen15 Not really, we are made of meat too and he has not realy got much meat on him. he is ful of holes.
Less commenting on bacon man, more calling people shrills plz.

Unless you think the bacon man is a shrill.

07-01-2009, 02:00 PM   #5805
qpw
banned

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by pen15 Not really, we are made of meat too and he has not realy got much meat on him. he is ful of holes.
Woosh!

 07-01-2009, 04:37 PM #5806 Rounding4Rent journeyman     Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 234 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition I'd literally bet my life on it that online poker is rigged.
07-01-2009, 04:46 PM   #5807
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent I'd literally bet my life on it that online poker is rigged.
I'm available to escrow this bet.

07-01-2009, 04:48 PM   #5808
Rounding4Rent
journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 234
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 I'm available to escrow this bet.
Yes I know you are a sucker Marky-mark, you don't have to remind me again

07-01-2009, 04:53 PM   #5809
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent Yes I know you are a sucker Marky-mark, you don't have to remind me again
demise carries less

Random Word Generator (Plus)

07-01-2009, 06:11 PM   #5810
PavelC
journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 272
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alexd10 Do you really think companies the size or stars and FTP woud rig there cards? ^^
Nothing about rigged or not rigged but maybe they are so big because they are rigged? If they are so big and rich rigging games they have reason to do it . Socrates says that its logic.
I enclose picture as evidence.

 07-01-2009, 06:16 PM #5811 BucketFoot grinder     Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 500 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition Too many fishy things happening to believe that it's not rigged.
 07-01-2009, 06:26 PM #5812 PavelC journeyman     Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 272 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition The proof that online poker is rigged is simple : there are many talks about RNG generator and independent companies watching on RNG but there are no companies watching that this random cards are randomly distributed on random desks. For Pokerstars, Fulltilt and other companies is no problem pay small contribution for independent company to do it. In this case all speeches about rigged or not rigged are pointless and everybody can be sure : ya, their business is clear and honest. WHY THEY DON´T DO IT?
 07-01-2009, 06:28 PM #5813 pen15 banned   Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 627 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition Yea I had few quid lef in an account i had so I though I would have a 'dable' at the low stakes. The guy who was winning every hand was there bullying me every hand eventually I flopped an ace and went all in assuming he had nowt but of course he had AK. OK fair enough my bad play, then a little later, I have JJ I make a big raise, he calls flop 884 I'am all in so is he, I got he he only had a 4 bbut of course the trun is a 4 as well. That's just one typical hand of many, anyway earlier they stole all my poker poiints, they decided to make them worthless - how nice. Then they had introductory freerolls where of course I get a load of luck to 'soften me up', of course when it comes to cash games I the opposite of that luck. Anyway that's another site I won't play at anymore, they cheated me out of my points thus establishing the fact they believe cheatin pays so F**K EM!!
 07-01-2009, 07:02 PM #5814 george999 stranger   Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 14 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition I have played on American Poker II machines for about 10 years and on Poker Stars at least 300.000 hands.Dealing cards on poker machines looks as random as Ps dealing cards but poker machines are well known rigged to keep a percent for the house.I doubt someone can prove that poker machines are rigged without seeing the source code. On poker machines after I cashed out I started to lose... On PS after I cashed out I started to lose... So,I don't know about math,probability,statistics,etc.,but I can say that I know both poker machines and internet poker very well and internet poker seems similar to poker machines only difference is that everybody is some day the house(wining money,cashout) and other day the gambler(losing money,unbelievable badbeats, etc.). Another funny thing is that after i sign up on a poker site, first 1-2 weeks i am a poker god,i'm winning no matter what,no bead beats,and after that period or after i cash out i became the worst poker player ever. This is just a opinion,it's not based on statistics,but i think that poker sites should make public the dealing cards source code( if dealing cards results it's really unpredictable this shouldnt be a problem) and the programers will say if it's random or not. P.S. : Sorry for my bad english(it's not my native language)
 07-01-2009, 07:04 PM #5815 dbcooper279 old hand     Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Under 23ft of water Posts: 1,678 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition You know, you never hear from the beginners who deposit, run like crap and never play again. Only the ones who run hot, withdraw some and then complain about how it is rigged to favor beginners.
07-01-2009, 07:59 PM   #5816
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BucketFoot Too many fishy things happening to believe that it's not rigged.
Properly done statistical analysis and common sense > random guy thinking he sees something fishy. If it was the reverse this whole world would be in a state of chaos given all the wacky theories about all sorts of things people have :. Well, except for Lizard people - they are real.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PavelC The proof that online poker is rigged is simple : there are many talks about RNG generator and independent companies watching on RNG but there are no companies watching that this random cards are randomly distributed on random desks. For Pokerstars, Fulltilt and other companies is no problem pay small contribution for independent company to do it. In this case all speeches about rigged or not rigged are pointless and everybody can be sure : ya, their business is clear and honest. WHY THEY DON´T DO IT?
The same can apply to UFOs, doomsday predictions, Bigfoot, and all sorts of other fanciful beliefs. Lots talk about them but there are no official companies or governments checking to see if it is all true. In fact, many believe the government is in on it as well. WHY THEY DON'T DO IT?

Then again, Lizard People are real.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by pen15 Yea I had few quid lef in an account i had so I though I would have a 'dable' at the low stakes. The guy who was winning every hand was there bullying me every hand eventually I flopped an ace and went all in assuming he had nowt but of course he had AK. OK fair enough my bad play, then a little later, I have JJ I make a big raise, he calls flop 884 I'am all in so is he, I got he he only had a 4 bbut of course the trun is a 4 as well. That's just one typical hand of many, anyway earlier they stole all my poker poiints, they decided to make them worthless - how nice. Then they had introductory freerolls where of course I get a load of luck to 'soften me up', of course when it comes to cash games I the opposite of that luck. Anyway that's another site I won't play at anymore, they cheated me out of my points thus establishing the fact they believe cheatin pays so F**K EM!!
Wow, that site spent a ton of man hours just to screw you out of your 5 bucks or so. I mean the elaborate setups with freerolls to soften you up, and get you comfortable, all the while they are waiting, waiting, waiting - to strike! Poof, your 5 bucks is gone to another player ( a house bot/player I assume).

All in all a few dozen hours well spent on their part. The Lizard People would be proud.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by george999 So,I don't know about math,probability,statistics,etc.,but I can say that I know both poker machines and internet poker very well
It's like the "I am not a Doctor, but I play one on TV" approach. The Lizard People invented that by the way.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dbcooper279 You know, you never hear from the beginners who deposit, run like crap and never play again. Only the ones who run hot, withdraw some and then complain about how it is rigged to favor beginners.
One never seems to hear from winning players as well, that certainly is an interesting coincidence. I suspect the Lizard People are behind that

Also, the Lizard People approve of all of the new gimmick accounts appearing. I enclose this link (which includes pictures) as evidence. Well, ok the picture is of the guy who has formed most of the Lizard People beliefs, but he kind of looks like a Lizard Person at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

 07-01-2009, 09:20 PM #5817 suzzer99 Save the Cheerleader, Save the World     Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: givin' 'em the business Posts: 98,575 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition They prefer the term "sauroids".
 07-01-2009, 10:12 PM #5818 otatop Carpal \'Tunnel   Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: unstuckpolitics.com Posts: 12,727 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition Well guys, consider me converted to the rigtards side. If you'll allow me to post a few hand histories, I'll show you why. Poker Stars \$0.10/\$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com KE_Bjorni (BTN): \$27.10 patera007 (SB): \$10.00 alecgmc (BB): \$13.95 bagnus (UTG): \$25.60 Hero (UTG+1): \$27.60 JoeCrack07 (MP): \$29.50 momo3569 (CO): \$9.75 Pre Flop: (\$0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with A K 1 fold, Hero raises to \$1, 1 fold, momo3569 calls \$1, KE_Bjorni calls \$1, patera007 calls \$0.90, alecgmc calls \$0.75 Flop: (\$5.00) 9 4 6 (5 players) patera007 bets \$0.50, alecgmc folds, Hero raises to \$2, momo3569 folds, KE_Bjorni calls \$2, patera007 raises to \$5, Hero folds, KE_Bjorni calls \$3 Turn: (\$17.00) 2 (2 players) patera007 bets \$3.75, KE_Bjorni raises to \$7.50, patera007 calls \$0.25 all in River: (\$25.00) K (2 players - 1 is all in) Final Pot: \$25.00 KE_Bjorni mucks T T patera007 shows K 2 (two pair, Kings and Deuces) patera007 wins \$23.80 (Rake: \$1.20) How can he possibly get all in with bottom pair? Must be because he knows the two outer K on the river is coming! Look at these other hands he played immediately after this hand: Poker Stars \$0.10/\$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com KE_Bjorni (CO): \$17.10 patera007 (BTN): \$23.80 alecgmc (SB): \$12.95 bagnus (BB): \$25.60 Hero (UTG): \$25.00 JoeCrack07 (UTG+1): \$29.50 momo3569 (MP): \$8.75 Pre Flop: (\$0.35) Hero is UTG with T 3 2 folds, momo3569 raises to \$0.50, 1 fold, patera007 calls \$0.50, alecgmc calls \$0.40, 1 fold Flop: (\$1.75) A 2 Q (3 players) alecgmc bets \$0.50, momo3569 calls \$0.50, patera007 calls \$0.50 Turn: (\$3.25) 2 (3 players) alecgmc bets \$0.50, momo3569 calls \$0.50, patera007 calls \$0.50 River: (\$4.75) J (3 players) alecgmc checks, momo3569 bets \$0.50, patera007 calls \$0.50, alecgmc calls \$0.50 Final Pot: \$6.25 patera007 shows 3 Q (two pair, Queens and Deuces) alecgmc shows A 9 (two pair, Aces and Deuces) momo3569 shows K Q (two pair, Queens and Deuces) alecgmc wins \$5.95 (Rake: \$0.30) Poker Stars \$0.10/\$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com KE_Bjorni (MP): \$17.10 patera007 (CO): \$21.80 alecgmc (BTN): \$16.90 bagnus (SB): \$25.35 Hero (BB): \$25.00 JoeCrack07 (UTG): \$29.50 momo3569 (UTG+1): \$6.75 Pre Flop: (\$0.35) Hero is BB with 9 4 3 folds, patera007 calls \$0.25, alecgmc calls \$0.25, bagnus calls \$0.15, Hero checks Flop: (\$1.00) 5 5 4 (4 players) bagnus checks, Hero checks, patera007 bets \$0.50, alecgmc calls \$0.50, bagnus folds, Hero folds Turn: (\$2.00) 2 (2 players) patera007 bets \$1, alecgmc calls \$1 River: (\$4.00) Q (2 players) patera007 bets \$1, alecgmc calls \$1 Final Pot: \$6.00 patera007 shows K 3 (a pair of Fives) alecgmc shows A A (two pair, Aces and Fives) alecgmc wins \$5.75 (Rake: \$0.25) Poker Stars \$0.10/\$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com KE_Bjorni (UTG+1): \$17.10 patera007 (MP): \$19.05 alecgmc (CO): \$19.90 bagnus (BTN): \$25.10 Hero (SB): \$25.00 JoeCrack07 (BB): \$29.50 momo3569 (UTG): \$6.75 Pre Flop: (\$0.35) Hero is SB with Q 3 2 folds, patera007 calls \$0.25, alecgmc calls \$0.25, bagnus calls \$0.25, 1 fold, JoeCrack07 checks Flop: (\$1.10) 5 2 9 (4 players) JoeCrack07 checks, patera007 bets \$0.25, alecgmc raises to \$0.50, bagnus folds, JoeCrack07 folds, patera007 calls \$0.25 Turn: (\$2.10) J (2 players) patera007 bets \$1, alecgmc raises to \$2.50, patera007 raises to \$7, alecgmc raises to \$19.15 all in, patera007 calls \$11.30 all in River: (\$38.70) T (2 players - 2 are all in) Final Pot: \$38.70 patera007 shows 2 J (two pair, Jacks and Deuces) alecgmc shows T A (a flush, Ace high) alecgmc wins \$36.80 (Rake: \$1.90) You see, obviously rigg...oh wait. I guess he's just an idiot whose range is a joker and the rules of poker card+ who got lucky in one hand where he was 10% to win. I guess I'm not converted after all.
 07-01-2009, 10:15 PM #5819 spadebidder Actually Shows Proof     Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: This looks interesting. Posts: 7,906 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition In case you were wondering... [T]he extraterrestrial prison warders from the constellation Draco They walk erect and appear to be human, living not only on the planets they come from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the earth. They have cross-bred with humans, which has created "hybrids" who are "possessed" by the full-blooded reptilians. The reptiles' hybrid reptilian-human DNA allows them to change from reptilian to human form if they consume human blood. [T]he reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles, [who are] slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the British royal family, and the ruling political and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best they can a genetic structure — the reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'." Icke was the original rigtard, and is a tough act to follow.
07-01-2009, 10:49 PM   #5820
TheDustyMan
stranger

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markusgc even Jamie Gold won a donkament once. sick sample size, sherlock.
These 400 hands were from hands where the money all went in pre flop against 1 opponent

07-01-2009, 11:36 PM   #5821
DMoogle
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern VA, USA
Posts: 7,140
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by otatop Poker Stars \$0.10/\$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com KE_Bjorni (BTN): \$27.10 patera007 (SB): \$10.00 alecgmc (BB): \$13.95 bagnus (UTG): \$25.60 Hero (UTG+1): \$27.60 JoeCrack07 (MP): \$29.50 momo3569 (CO): \$9.75 Pre Flop: (\$0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with A K 1 fold, Hero raises to \$1, 1 fold, momo3569 calls \$1, KE_Bjorni calls \$1, patera007 calls \$0.90, alecgmc calls \$0.75 Flop: (\$5.00) 9 4 6 (5 players) patera007 bets \$0.50, alecgmc folds, Hero raises to \$2, momo3569 folds, KE_Bjorni calls \$2, patera007 raises to \$5, Hero folds, KE_Bjorni calls \$3 Turn: (\$17.00) 2 (2 players) patera007 bets \$3.75, KE_Bjorni raises to \$7.50, patera007 calls \$0.25 all in
What in the world is Hero doing on the flop here?

07-02-2009, 12:06 AM   #5822
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DMoogle What in the world is Hero doing on the flop here?
Not realizing there were 90 people in the pot and seeing if ATC guy would fold.

MY LEAKS ARE NOT THE ISSUE HERE!

 07-02-2009, 12:12 AM #5823 DMoogle Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern VA, USA Posts: 7,140 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition OK. But man that bet is unbelievably bad.
 07-02-2009, 12:51 AM #5824 BucketFoot grinder     Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 500 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition The manner in which I lose some pots really make me think that either the RNG plays favorites, or there is a lot of soft collusion going on, giving the illusion of a bad beat. It's probably both. So many suspicious plays being rewarded lately, its kind of silly.
 07-02-2009, 01:44 AM #5825 NFuego20 Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cleveland Posts: 4,295 Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition Once again BucketFoot has convinced me. /thread

 Thread Tools Display Modes Linear Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Poker News & Discussion     News, Views, and Gossip     Poker Blogs and Goals     Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance     YouTube Podcasts & Twitch Streams     General Poker Discussion Online Poker Sites & Marketplaces     Online Poker Sites         Discussion of Poker Sites         Global Poker         BetOnline.ag         PokerStars: General discussion     Coaches & Schools         Seeking Coaching         Study Groups         General Coaching & Schools Discussion     Staking         Seeking Stakes         Selling Shares - Live         Selling Shares - Online         Staking Rails     Poker Software         General Software Discussion     General Marketplace     Transaction Feedback & Disputes Live Poker     Las Vegas Lifestyle     Venues & Communities     Tournament Events         WPT.com     Home Poker     Casino & Cardroom Poker Poker Strategy     Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash     Online No-Limit Hold’em Cash     No Limit Tournaments         Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos     Mid-High Stakes MTT     Omaha         Omaha/8     Other Poker Games         Mid-High Stakes Limit         Micro-Small Stakes Limit         Stud     Psychology     Books and Publications     Poker Theory & GTO     Beginners and General Questions 2+2 Communities     Other Other Topics         OOTV     The Lounge: Discussion+Review     BBV4Life         omg omg omg     House of Blogs Sports and Games     Sporting Events         Single-Team Season Threads         Fantasy Sports     Sports Betting     Fantasy Sports         Sporting Events     Wrestling     Golf     Chess and Other Board Games         Backgammon Forum hosted by Bill Robertie.     Video Games         League of Legends         Hearthstone     Puzzles and Other Games Other Topics     Politics and Society     Business, Finance, and Investing     History     Health and Fitness     Travel     Science, Math, and Philosophy     Religion, God, and Theology     Laughs or Links!     Probability     Other Gambling Games     Computer and Technical Help Two Plus Two     About the Forums

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:11 AM.

 Contact Us - Two Plus Two Publishing LLC - Privacy Statement - Top