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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-30-2009, 04:05 PM   #5751
tk1133
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I have a real question, that I don't know the answer too. Instead of me pounding the keyboard and making accusations with out any proof, I'll ask for an honest answer.
I know we've had pages full of how the rng's work and the "static" shuffle...But is it possible whatsoever, for the Security, Software Designer, Techs, the CEO, anybody, for them to see exactly what the outcome is of the hand dealt?(Watching a table in real time, and having something that tells them what cards are coming so that they know their' RNG is working properly?)

I want to also mention there is a difference in perception for "shills" and employee for poker sites. The shills I refer to are the ones that do it and act like they're everyday players just like us. Josem prolly hates my posts, but I think he's the most credible and trustworthy of any posters on this forum that has affiliation with a poker site. Considering what he's done for the poker community.

Still waiting for an answer....
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:08 PM   #5752
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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This is how stupid you really are...
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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Oi!

Don't call DMoogle stupid.
+1

It hurts my feelings.
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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Did you see the dealer deal the cards?
Maybe, I don't remember so I could've been distracted. I had the opportunity to though. This was a home game in the basement BTW.
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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Did you have an opperunity to watch him shuffle?
I did. Not sure if I took that opportunity though.
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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Could you tell if the other player was a human or a robot?
I suspected they were human, but in this day and age, who knows?

ROBOT PEOPLE
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If you saw all those things...COMMON SENSE tells you it's legit....
I blame an unprovable force... the gods of poker. They rigged the game.
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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
If you saw all these things and still thought live poker was rigged, then you'd have to think the dealer is a magician and can deal any sequence of cards he wishes...which would be identified as "PARANOID!"
IT WAS MAGIC I TELL YOU!
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Wouldn't that be logical?
Logic has no place in this thread.
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I know what point you were trying to make...that you could save live is rigged just like online...but how can you live with yourself for making such stupid comparisons....?
ur a stoopid bigword
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:10 PM   #5753
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

"If the blind lead the blind, they all fall in a ditch..."
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:13 PM   #5754
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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The words of a shrill
Although disturbing the air
Remain forever void
SHILL. NOT SHRILL.

What's wrong with you?

Goddamnit.
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:17 PM   #5755
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Josem why is it that you still have not answered my question about whether your heartlessness knows no bounds?

I find that interesting.
This was very clever... +1
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:23 PM   #5756
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I shouldn't of called Dmoogle stupid, Considering this is a debate, I shouldn't attack him persoally for his views. It would be more professional and appropriate to attack the opinions of others, not the the individual. I apologize and retract that comment...
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:24 PM   #5757
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

that's why we dig ya, tk. not like that K12 fella...

now he sucks.
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:46 PM   #5758
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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that's why we dig ya, tk. not like that K12 fella...

now he sucks.
HaHa! Thanks! I feel for ya, you got your hands full moderating this Zoo! Doing a good job tho as I presumed...
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:19 PM   #5759
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

You asked for proof here it is!!

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minu...odes&play=true
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:26 PM   #5760
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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SHILL. NOT SHRILL.

What's wrong with you?

Goddamnit.

You can talk look a you're hair, you look like an idiot!
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:39 PM   #5761
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Wow, no ****. Guess who they talked to in that story? Josem.

That had nothing to do with "rigging".
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:40 PM   #5762
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

You asked for evidence of rigginig well here it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PartyGaming
In April 2009 the company made a settlement with the United States government where they agreed to pay a penalty of $105 million over the next four years as part of a “non-prosecution agreement”. As part of the deal, Party put its name to a “statement of facts” in which it admits for the first time that, before October 2006, it had targeted US citizens, resulting in the processing of transactions that were “contrary to certain US laws”


So there you have it, the company is quite happy to break the law, ie CHEAT, so you think it is just that law it breaks?

You think there is only so far they are willing to go in their cheat and will stop at the deal and allowing people access to hohle cards etc?

Well I will tell you sommat for nowt I don't think so, one an immoral cheat always an immoral cheat, I said earlier that such cheating would run through every aspect of their business and here is another example.

And I can say in public and without fear of liable laws that Party Poker are cheats because they admit it themselves!!


Now come on you shrills shills poker site reps or whatever have a good go at discreding me because thats what you ar epaid for isn't it!!


Come on, call me and idiot a liar and a fantasist or whatever, anything to discredit me, hae a go at my spelling grammer, the colour of my shoes or whatever, EARN YOUR MONEY BOYS.

If you can't think of anything try and chnge the subject, say this is the wrong thread or whatever, say it's past my bedtime but saysomething!!


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Old 06-30-2009, 05:43 PM   #5763
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Wow, no ****. Guess who they talked to in that story? Josem.

That had nothing to do with "rigging".
HA ha you got me - technical fault = wrong form of cheatiing

Ah well that proves there is no cheating.

Read my previous post written before I read your predictible and pathetic stuff
You will have to do better or be sacked for incompetence!
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:02 PM   #5764
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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HA ha you got me - technical fault = wrong form of cheatiing

Ah well that proves there is no cheating.

Read my previous post written before I read your predictible and pathetic stuff
You will have to do better or be sacked for incompetence!
Sigh.

As entertaining as this thread is in coming up with new and inventive ways that poker sites might potentially rig the RNG and the flaws therein, it is getting frustrating to keep on seeing the same referrals to other forms of cheating and then presuming that rigging must be going on as well.

No one in this thread has said there is no cheating in online poker - whether by the sites themselves, or by players. This thread is only about whether the deal is rigged. The primary focus of this debate has centered around whether this could be done in a way that would not show up statistically by a fair study. The corollary is that if it could be done in a statistically hidden way, would it therefore have any effect on the company's bottom line.

The only evidence so far in favour of rigging seem to be isolated cases of bad beats and isolated examples of statistically improbably hands. No one has shown any data of a sufficient scale to show that online poker by any major site is rigged.

As poker players, who should follow expectation, the only thing that can be said now is that the odds strongly favour that online poker is not rigged. Poker players know that instinct alone will tend to lead most players down the road to busto.

Common rigdologists! Start thinking like poker players! Don't be so results oriented!


I will say, however, that toning down on the personal insults will improve the level of debate here. I know its the internet, but no need to call anyone stupid, or ******ed. Having a spelling mistake does not make someone an imbecile. This thread is fun, which is why I keep coming back to it. Let's keep it that way!
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:14 PM   #5765
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by pen15 View Post
You asked for evidence of rigginig well here it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PartyGaming
In April 2009 the company made a settlement with the United States government where they agreed to pay a penalty of $105 million over the next four years as part of a “non-prosecution agreement”. As part of the deal, Party put its name to a “statement of facts” in which it admits for the first time that, before October 2006, it had targeted US citizens, resulting in the processing of transactions that were “contrary to certain US laws”
Oh, well that's flat out evidence of rigging, good work.

Wait, no, it's just Party being strongarmed by the US government into paying a fine. Wowzers. Good work, Dick Tracy.
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HA ha you got me - technical fault = wrong form of cheatiing
There was proof of the cheating, no one denies that it took place, but this thread isn't about that. Not really the hardest concept to follow
Quote:
Ah well that proves there is no cheating.
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Good work!
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You will have to do better or be sacked for incompetence!
Oh look, more baseless accusations from pen15.
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:47 PM   #5766
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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You can talk look a you're hair, you look like an idiot!


You mean Nicolas Cage's hair?
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:52 PM   #5767
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I too started with a win in a tournament (1st prize $56,400) & withdrew nearly all to pay off my mortgage..that was the kiss of death. After that I rarely hit a card in $1/$2 NL HE

I started a little exercise..I keep a pack of cards at my computer & every hand I run in I deal a flop..If i hold say Ah Kh & one of those cards come out of my pack I burn that card & deal another etc. Likewise at the end of a hand if my opponent had say Ac Qc I burn & deal another card.

My 1st exercise ran to 100 hands whereby I had the best hand pre flop 67 out of 100 but only won 44.
But, with the cards I dealt myself I won 65.

So, I repeated the ecxercise & had the best hand pre flop 71 out of 100 & only won 41.
With my cards I won 73.
I repeated this a further 2 times with similar results. That’s 400 hands & all favoured my pack v their pack. Very sus!
Try it & let me know.
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:04 PM   #5768
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I have a real question, that I don't know the answer too. Instead of me pounding the keyboard and making accusations with out any proof, I'll ask for an honest answer.
I know we've had pages full of how the rng's work and the "static" shuffle...But is it possible whatsoever, for the Security, Software Designer, Techs, the CEO, anybody, for them to see exactly what the outcome is of the hand dealt?(Watching a table in real time, and having something that tells them what cards are coming so that they know their' RNG is working properly?)
I know that such a feature doesn't exist at PokerStars:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars
Nobody in senior
management, none of the software developers, no support representatives.
Nobody at all. Our software simply doesn't have this functionality, as
the result of a security decision that was made when the PokerStars
software was first written many years ago (and long before [the AP/UB] scandal).
Quote:
I want to also mention there is a difference in perception for "shills" and employee for poker sites. The shills I refer to are the ones that do it and act like they're everyday players just like us. Josem prolly hates my posts, but I think he's the most credible and trustworthy of any posters on this forum that has affiliation with a poker site. Considering what he's done for the poker community.
I don't hate your posts at all. At least you're trying to consider the issues with an open mind.

Players should question these things. You're a customer of these online poker sites, and you have a right to know what service is being delivered. You pay for it, it's your real money at stake, and you have every right to question it.

I really encourage you to question it if you have doubts. Email whatever site you play at, and ask them until you're satisfied.

The key point I've learnt through all this stuff is that human brains really suck at understanding randomness.

Statistics, and randomness, are, I think, two of the most poorly understood subjects in our society, and it's poorly understood because truly understanding this stuff runs directly contrary to billions of years of evolution.

In short, our brains are hard wired to identify patterns quickly, and rely upon those judgements. If our forebears saw a lion running quickly towards us, they needed to very quickly identify it as a threat, plot a likely path of the lion, and get out of the way... and if they didn't identify this pattern, they'd die pretty quickly. Consequently, the only people alive today are the descendants of people who were good at identifying patterns.

However, this same pattern-finding ability in our brains is what messes things up. Precisely the same thing happens in poker - people see several similar hands in a row, and our natural pattern-finding habit kicks in... but this time, it isn't really there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Josem why is it that you still have not answered my question about whether your heartlessness knows no bounds?

I find that interesting.
I hadn't answered it 'cause you posted it at 2.17am my time, and I was asleep. Even I sleep.

Suzzer, I'm not heartless. You know I love reading about your bad beats in the [censored] thread, on AIM, and now here.



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Sup.
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:49 PM   #5769
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by TheDustyMan View Post
I too started with a win in a tournament (1st prize $56,400) & withdrew nearly all to pay off my mortgage..that was the kiss of death. After that I rarely hit a card in $1/$2 NL HE
even Jamie Gold won a donkament once.
Quote:
I started a little exercise..I keep a pack of cards at my computer & every hand I run in I deal a flop...

My 1st exercise ran to 100 hands...

So, I repeated the ecxercise & had the best hand pre flop 71 out of 100 & only won 41.
With my cards I won 73.
I repeated this a further 2 times with similar results. That’s 400 hands & all favoured my pack v their pack. Very sus!
Try it & let me know.
sick sample size, sherlock.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:31 PM   #5770
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by TheDustyMan View Post
I started a little exercise..I keep a pack of cards at my computer & every hand I run in I deal a flop..If i hold say Ah Kh & one of those cards come out of my pack I burn that card & deal another etc. Likewise at the end of a hand if my opponent had say Ac Qc I burn & deal another card.
How very scientific.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:32 PM   #5771
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
I know that such a feature doesn't exist at PokerStars:



I don't hate your posts at all. At least you're trying to consider the issues with an open mind.

Players should question these things. You're a customer of these online poker sites, and you have a right to know what service is being delivered. You pay for it, it's your real money at stake, and you have every right to question it.

I really encourage you to question it if you have doubts. Email whatever site you play at, and ask them until you're satisfied.

The key point I've learnt through all this stuff is that human brains really suck at understanding randomness.

Statistics, and randomness, are, I think, two of the most poorly understood subjects in our society, and it's poorly understood because truly understanding this stuff runs directly contrary to billions of years of evolution.

In short, our brains are hard wired to identify patterns quickly, and rely upon those judgements. If our forebears saw a lion running quickly towards us, they needed to very quickly identify it as a threat, plot a likely path of the lion, and get out of the way... and if they didn't identify this pattern, they'd die pretty quickly. Consequently, the only people alive today are the descendants of people who were good at identifying patterns.

However, this same pattern-finding ability in our brains is what messes things up. Precisely the same thing happens in poker - people see several similar hands in a row, and our natural pattern-finding habit kicks in... but this time, it isn't really there.
.
Thanks for taking the time to answer that for me. I've never thought of the problem solving concepts and relating it to ancestory like that. That's deep.

In a different country thousand of miles away, the first humans could of saw the lions running towards them and grabbed their closest neighbor and threw him in the lions path so he'd have time to get away....? Why take the chance of figuring out a route when you feed the lion yourself and run....
But I'm glad to hear that about PokerStars, that's the kind of security and comfort we need as poker players...
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:37 PM   #5772
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDustyMan View Post
I too started with a win in a tournament (1st prize $56,400) & withdrew nearly all to pay off my mortgage..that was the kiss of death. After that I rarely hit a card in $1/$2 NL HE

I started a little exercise..I keep a pack of cards at my computer & every hand I run in I deal a flop..If i hold say Ah Kh & one of those cards come out of my pack I burn that card & deal another etc. Likewise at the end of a hand if my opponent had say Ac Qc I burn & deal another card.

My 1st exercise ran to 100 hands whereby I had the best hand pre flop 67 out of 100 but only won 44.
But, with the cards I dealt myself I won 65.

So, I repeated the ecxercise & had the best hand pre flop 71 out of 100 & only won 41.
With my cards I won 73.
I repeated this a further 2 times with similar results. That’s 400 hands & all favoured my pack v their pack. Very sus!
Try it & let me know.
This would be somewhat valid (given enough hands) if you only do the comparison when you are all-in preflop. Otherwise you are playing against other players making decisions, not against the odds of the deck. The hand that would have won in an imaginary game of no-foldem-holdem only wins 12% of the time in real games. Your first step should be to understand why this is true, and construct a true model of how poker is played. It certainly isn't played by just drawing cards and see who wins, with the sole exception of a player being all-in preflop against a single caller.

Last edited by spadebidder; 06-30-2009 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:38 PM   #5773
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Thanks for taking the time to answer that for me. I've never thought of the problem solving concepts and relating it to ancestory like that. That's deep.

In a different country thousand of miles away, the first humans could of saw the lions running towards them and grabbed their closest neighbor and threw him in the lions path so he'd have time to get away....? Why take the chance of figuring out a route when you feed the lion yourself and run....
But I'm glad to hear that about PokerStars, that's the kind of security and comfort we need as poker players...
And the Lizard People take a one convert lead!
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:50 PM   #5774
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

When two guys are chased by a lion, one doesn't have to outrun the lion to survive, he only has to outrun his buddy.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:56 PM   #5775
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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When two guys are chased by a lion, one doesn't have to outrun the lion to survive, he only has to outrun his buddy.
Unless you are this guy:

The Lion would run right past your buddy to get to the delicious Bacon Man.
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