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Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.01%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9859. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-28-2009, 10:27 PM   #551
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
that is them. really. there has been absolutely nothing more interesting than what I mentioned.

and thanks for removing your original friendly critique in reaction to a friendly suggestion on how to enjoy the forum better.
fyp

your welcome, thanks for the cliffs, but you don't think that the 100 posts per page feature takes too long to load?
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:29 PM   #552
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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you don't think that the 100 posts per page feature takes too long to load?
I'll take the length of time it takes to load over loading another page frequently.

And thanks for putting this thread into a useful direction.

I also meant to compliment you on your avatar. Do you like Golden Tee?
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:36 PM   #553
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

50 is the proper ammount imo
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:38 PM   #554
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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You guys are all riggers...
did anyone else scroll through the page and think that he typed the N word?
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:39 PM   #555
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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1. No they would be breakeven instead of losing and small winners instead of breakeven.

I see a whole lotta -60 to -95% ROI guys making really horrible choices, and playing hands as badly as possible.

Is part of this whole rigging for bad players scheme to leave some to lose so people will not catch on?

It's fun adding layers to rigged beliefs to fit new conditions.

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2. No am I not an expert analyist and No 60 minutes didnt contact me.
No real need to state your lack of expertise in math.

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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
3. Not every hand(in my opinion) is manipulated. Thats a shame about your tournament, but its poker it happens.
Well, are there some special powers you use to determine when the hands are rigged, or is it just gut feel. Some might suggest you are using selective memory here, since, well, that is clearly obvious that you are, but it would be nice to hear the basis of what makes one hand rigged and another similar hand not rigged.

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4. No statistically challenged would not suit me at all thankyou very much. I fully understand and have studies poker statistics in particular.
Cool, then break down your point 3 in a valid statistical manner for us.

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5. I understand that lizards have nothing to do with this thread but why did you include them?
Maybe not all threads have lizards, but some do.

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6. For the last point it looks as if your saying they need to be "rewarded" more often than the 5% for them to keep coming back.
What do we say to the -90% guys who keep waiting for this to happen?
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:16 PM   #556
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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What do we say to the -90% guys who keep waiting for this to happen?
"tough one SooperFish, you gonna reload?"
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:13 AM   #557
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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UMMM ANOTHER IDIOT NOT KNOWING WHAT WE WAS TALKING ABOUT...NOT THAT POST BUT THE ONE BEFORE THAT ONE MADE ABOUT 20 MINUTES AGO... AND WHO WAS TALKING TO YOU ABOUT TERMINATING YOU?
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:20 AM   #558
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Seven sixteenths of one inch:

That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot.
[X] Will be ineffective.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:30 AM   #559
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

This guy did some research before posting his video



The methods of analysis are laughable and are presented after some stock heavy-metal guitar riffs over which the content of the episode, "Full Tilt Screws Their Partners" and they just happen to release their "Audit of the Full Tilt Poker software and affiliate program" at the same time too.

Then the genius pictured above starts talking. But at least they did some sort of study. No matter how crappy it was, it's still WAY better than anything OP or SooperFish brought with them. So I guess they've got that going for them.

Here's another rigged video, but I think the shills here won't like the truth being told about these alleged battles.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:43 AM   #560
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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But at least they did some sort of study. No matter how crappy it was, it's still WAY better than anything OP or SooperFish brought with them.
Even though the APCW guys were biased and had no clue how to do a correct statistical analysis of poker, they did put in the effort to try to get some data and analyse it. The data didn't show what they thought it did and is ridiculously easy to refute. But don't come in here with anecdotal bad beats, intuition, timing theories, patterns only the mind can detect, and laughably small sample sizes, and expect to be taken seriously. Read some poker and statistics books first. Learn what is normal before creating imaginary boogiemen with doom switches.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:49 AM   #561
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Wow, Tom - I didn't even notice you were responding to me because of the incompetent use of the quote function. But happened across a bunch of randomly capitalized words and realized they were yours.
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BUT THEY ARE LOOKING! YOU ADMIT THAT. ARE THEY RIDICULED FOR LOOKING?
Yes, I admit that there are probes off the Planet Earth collecting data for analysis. I don't agree they are out there for the sole purpose of proving there is life on other planets though. And no one is ridiculing anyone for searching for aliens OR proof of online poker being rigged. Personally, I'm ridiculing people who come here and make the same tired claims in hopes of explaining away their own failures in poker but create new failures in the Foil Hat Industry.

If you're looking for evidence, good on ya! I'd love to have a look at it when it's ready. Until then, enjoy another several thousand 12-packs of Schlitz and leave us alone.
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THAT'S BS...GOOGLE IT THEY ARE LOOKING; WHY ARE THEY LOOKING? "THERES A POSSIBILITY THEREFORE IT'S WORTH LOOKING INTO"
I've always maintained there's a possibility online poker could be rigged. If you think it might be, by all means, please look into it. But if you haven't, do you think you're the first person to suggest such a study?

Or would you be willing to consider you're about the 5-6th rigtard loser to come here ranting about how you know it's rigged but provide no evidence? Because I feel strongly about that hypothesis and can back it up.

So maybe tomorrow, after you wake up freezing in your trailer, have your morning vomit and loose bowel movement you can come back here and offer us something more than caps-locked ravings. What do you think of that, buddy? Think you can pull that off?
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:19 AM   #562
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Thank God I made it !!!!!
I was sooo afraid I would miss the daily Rigged thread
Thank you mods for not locking it yet
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:09 AM   #563
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

OP, it's healthy that many people are suspicious about the fairness of the deal on some poker sites (I think they're right in quite a few ways!! (gasp) I must be an idiot to think so, right? |o|).

Remember, two of the top five sites available to Americans have been proven to be cheats. How many of the top five sites will it take for the burden of proof to shift to the sites? three? four? all of them????

Another point, Poker Stars (though not FTP) is currently sponsoring a statistical study to test the hypothesis that poker is a game of skill. If the results are favorable, they might be used in an upcoming court case concerning the legality of online poker in some states. For the purposes of the said study, PS supplied Citigal, which is the company carrying out the statistical analysis, with 100 Millions hands. Importantly, the data supplied to Citigal included all hole cards.

Here is my point: Each of PS and FTP, can as easily, and must in fact, supply similar data to an independent company to specifically test the hypothesis that the deals are fair. This is not costly, can solidify their reputations as honest safe sites to play poker (?), and could even make for some good advertising.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:58 AM   #564
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Now who's the ******? Who Cant read? HMMM...You people missed the whole concept! I gaurentee you every single person that has wrote something negative about me is either working for certain online poker site or is working for 2+2. All you guys do is fuel the fire! Thats the whole point! I just wrote in english that I CANNOT PROVE IT"S RIGGED...I'm 50/50! I dont know if its rigged! But you people just went off the deep end again! Which was the point of this thread! IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM ONLINE POKER'S REPUTATION AND ANNUAL REVENUE WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?! WHY DO YOU GET SO MAD? SOMEBODY SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A BOMB IN THEIR MAIL BOX? WHY THE F$%^ WOULD SOMEBODY PUT A BOMB IN YOUR MAILBOX? THAT'D BE PRETTY RANDOM AND FAR FETCHED...IN OTHER WORDS WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF THAT HAPPENING?! why would somebody rig online poker? BILLIONS OF REASONS WHY! AND ALIENS? WELL PEOPLE MADE SPECULATION THAT THEIR ARE ALIENS....WE STILL LOOKED! WE LOOKED TO SEE IF WE COULD FIND PROOF THAT THERE WASN'T...WE'RE LOOKING ON MARS FOR WATER TO SEE IF LIFE EXISTED?! IF WE WERE ALL RIGHT LIKE YOU...NASA WOULD SAY, "PROVE THERE WAS LIFE ON ANOTHER PLANET BEFORE THEN WE'LL GO LOOK!" WELL PEOPLE MADE SPECULATION...NOW NASA AND OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN AND ARE STILL LOOKING B/C IT'S POSSIBLE AND IT'S WORTH FINDING OUT. NASA AND THE CIA DIDN'T RIP PEOPLE APART FOR SPECULATING? DIDNT OSTRACIZE THEM FROM THE COUNTRY...THE WHOLE POINT WAS WHY DO YOU GUYS ACT LIKE THIS? WHAT HARM WOULD IT DO TO LOOK INTO? THE WAY YOU ACT IS THAT THESE POSTS COST YOU MONEY? AGAIN I ASK:ARE THESE FORUMS HERE FOR US(AS IN WE)ONLINE POKER PLAYERS OR FOR YOU?
Wow. Who went off the deep end?

First of all, is this some kind of money back guarantee? Because you're way off on that claim. I only know of one person who has posted in this thread that is employed by a poker site or 2+2.

If you asked me, you've actually received a decent number of quality replies, considering this is just the 238,385th thread about rigging without evidence. Everyone's a little sick of it, so you should expect a bit of abuse. Especially when you keep coming back for more.

What would you like us to look into? Most of us have large databases of our own, and we're quite satisfied that everything's fine. If we weren't, we'd be starting a thread with our evidence. If you want to post something to look into, we'll be happy to do so. We can't look into anecdotes and feelings, unfortunately. A few hand histories go a long way. I believe the AP/UB takedown started with only a few hundred.

Until that happens, for your own sake you need to either get used to the abuse or stop posting about this.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:17 AM   #565
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

It's pretty funny that I'm the only one who is employed by a poker site, but I'm the one who actually provided a way to check on the poker sites.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:18 AM   #566
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Yes, and although I'm not employed by 2+2, I'm a mod and gave him a number of reasonable replies as well.
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:37 AM   #567
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Remember, two of the top five sites available to Americans have been proven to be cheats. How many of the top five sites will it take for the burden of proof to shift to the sites? three? four? all of them????
Anyone who has ever believed that there is no cheating involved in online poker is a fool. There have been numerous cases of cheating and fraud by online casinos. Ultimate Bet saw a HUGE drop in traffic long before the scandal was uncovered for precisely the reason that many people did not trust them and found them to be pretty shady. There was ample evidence that they were grossly understaffed and generally incompetent. People routinely had enormous problems cashing out (and we're speaking pre-UIGEA here when it was easy to cashout on other sites). I'm not as familiar with AP but they had their share of issues as well. These were companies that did little or nothing to reassure anyone of their legitimacy and everyone was aware that playing on certain sites was more of a risk than playing at others. The degree of cheating that took place on those two sites was shocking, but the fact that it happened specifically at those sites was not. To assert that large-scale insider cheating is likely to occur at large, well-staffed, well-run companies simply because some frat boys did it in their get-rich-quick scheme is obviously absurd.

Furthermore, the fact that two sites had superusers in no way demonstrates that any sites are likely to have rigged RNGs. If anything, it shows that there are much easier ways for sites to cheat if they wish to do so.

And to answer your question, the burden of proof is unlikely to change until online poker is legalized and regulated in a jurisdiction that people have confidence in. Until then, people will continue to play on established sites for as long as they have faith in those sites. People are pretty careful with their money and it is hardly a coincidence that the largest sites are trusted more than smaller sites. And on that note, your statement was incorrect. 0 of the top 5 sites are proven cheats. UB was once amongst the top 5, but as I mentioned earlier they lost much of their traffic after a series of fiascoes.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:41 AM   #568
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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It's pretty funny that I'm the only one who is employed by a poker site, but I'm the one who actually provided a way to check on the poker sites.
Not really. Pretty much all businesses with a long term plan to continue have within them vigilant means of quality control since it is in their best interests. Also, many of their customers research anything they consider curious (ie: collusion/soft play) which helps the companies in this regard.

Most rational humans get this, accept it, and appreciate it, for without it we would have essentially anarchy in the business world.

Paranoid rigtards work under the assumption that greed motivates all behaviors without any consideration for consequence in an effort to validate their poor results. This would be a horrible way for any business to operate other then one created as a scam from the start.

The irony in all of this is that rigtards tend to hinder the very process they seek to initiate by making a lot of noise about theories that often would be pointless for a site to initiate from a profit and risk/reward perspective. Meanwhile, other potential forms of cheating (ie: player based ones) get ignored as they scream OMGRIGZORRS aces cracked.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:18 AM   #569
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

^^^^^
sticky in the Rigtard Herding Thread, please.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:08 AM   #570
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

I think it's hilarious that people complained to the mods about me typing in caps. But it's ok for you to call me a loser, rigtard( pretty insulting mentally handiapped people and those who have family member who are.) and whatever else insulting has been said. Again, If you read my post, this wasn't a thread started to say online poker was rigged...I even said I couldn't pove it. Basicly I asked why people here are treated like this?
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:12 AM   #571
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Wow. Who went off the deep end?

First of all, is this some kind of money back guarantee? Because you're way off on that claim. I only know of one person who has posted in this thread that is employed by a poker site or 2+2.

If you asked me, you've actually received a decent number of quality replies, considering this is just the 238,385th thread about rigging without evidence. Everyone's a little sick of it, so you should expect a bit of abuse. Especially when you keep coming back for more.

What would you like us to look into? Most of us have large databases of our own, and we're quite satisfied that everything's fine. If we weren't, we'd be starting a thread with our evidence. If you want to post something to look into, we'll be happy to do so. We can't look into anecdotes and feelings, unfortunately. A few hand histories go a long way. I believe the AP/UB takedown started with only a few hundred.

Until that happens, for your own sake you need to either get used to the abuse or stop posting about this.
It's about my money, and my country's money. But in general I never said it was rigged...again look at my first post and the one I just wrote. Why is it not worth looking into if some 288 thousand people made posts here about it? If that many people said something or questioned it, why are they treated so poorly if they're simpy misunderstood or paranoid? I tried to start this thread being open minded and simply wanted to clearify this situation in a professional way.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:22 AM   #572
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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There's no good reason my local supermarket doesn't mix in pig testicles with the ground beef I buy, but I guess I'm gullible enough to believe that they don't. And I'll keep buying it until a reliable study shows they do.

The same principal applies here.

umm, it takes more than a "couple tenhigh calldowns" for me, and I think most, to be convinced there's "foul play."

A superuser account is not the same as "rigging." That said, would a superuser account counteract "rigging?" Seeing an opponents hole cards would only allow you to make the optimal play AT THE RIVER. It wouldn't keep your opponent from hitting his miracle 1-outer there. And if it "never" looked suspicious to anyone, then people like Josem wouldn't have ever taken the time to form a hypothesis, gather and analyze data to support it and THEN present it to others for consideration. When he did that, people discussed the merits of his (and others') work and decided there was something to it. Threads like this are light-years from an example such as that.

I hope this was "professional" enough a response. I am an amateur, you know. Be gentle with me.

Uhhhh, didn't the superuser have ties to the owner of the company? And the kawnhakee gaming commission? So how was that a bunch of frat boys doing that? The IP addresses were traced....Somebody accidently sent the master copy of the hand histories....
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:32 AM   #573
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Bobbo, You are a moderator here and I respect that, We know that you don't support people who say online poker is rigged,but are saying, as a moderator, that you support insulting and abusive behavior?
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:49 AM   #574
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Uhhhh, didn't the superuser have ties to the owner of the company? And the kawnhakee gaming commission? So how was that a bunch of frat boys doing that? The IP addresses were traced....Somebody accidently sent the master copy of the hand histories....
Does not matter. It has nothing to do with whether the hands were dealt in a rigged manner or not. I realize separating these two distinct issues is not easy for some, but even if the super users owned UB/AP and were chanting MUHAHAHA while naked with the people they paid off from the gaming commission, all that would mean is that they built a system they could exploit for a quick gain.

Even under these creative assumptions, the games and software were dealt in a fair manner, do you see the difference?

Think of it this way. Would you need to rig the deal of a poker game if your opponents were required to play with their hole cards showing to just you?

There was corruption at UB/AP, no one is disputing that, and in fact it was proven using valid statistical techniques. This demonstrated that cheating took place, but it had nothing to do with the actual deal of the cards.

The sooner rigtards can learn to separate these issues, the sooner they can help contribute to solving the cheating that does exist in this industry.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:53 AM   #575
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Seven sixteenths of one inch:



That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot.




Image and joke stolen from Maddox
That dude is fkn hilarious!

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I think it's hilarious that people complained to the mods about me typing in caps. But it's ok for you to call me a loser, rigtard( pretty insulting mentally handiapped people and those who have family member who are.) and whatever else insulting has been said. Again, If you read my post, this wasn't a thread started to say online poker was rigged...I even said I couldn't pove it. Basicly I asked why people here are treated like this?
The caps thing is because it's annoying when YOU SOUND LIKE YOU'RE YELLING!

This is the Zoo. Rigtard is an animal, not a slur against the mentally handicapped.
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