One and only time I agree with the "shills". You know its rigged, youve used your common sense to process the obvious, but still deposit. Ill go with self- control issues.Thing is, its understandable. Part of the reason for rigging these sites is to suck the player into thinking hes better then he is. They go to far with it and become addicted to the scam; results of the rigging.

Do the non-riggies think that a lot of the people that think online poker / RNG's are rigged
are either 1) losing players that don't have the self-reflection to know they are unknowingly using confirming bias when losing due to bad luck? or possibly 2) really have been like the top 1% unluckiest players?

Nowhere close to #2.

A good portion of them actually ran hot. Thats a pretty common riggie story. They run way above expectation, and that short stretch of winning, mixed with their overinflated egos and ignorance, is their evidence that they are being cheating when their results start to meet up with their skill level, which is usually always pretty poor to say the very least.

They are generally poor players who believe themselves to be good to excellent players who need a reason for their poor results not matching up to their expectations. Even relatively good players can succumb to this as lilpoker showed in his Stars is rigged rant. I've seen live players come up with similar belief systems that involve particular dealers, seat numbers, and other things of that sort that in essence do the same thing (though they are more likely to admit it's a superstition or possibly false belief).

Basically, you're asking if Self serving bias this is the cause for some people to believe online poker is rigger. I think that it explains why some people think it is rigged.

There are a whole lot of psychological biases that are key factors in the generation of these beliefs. Wikipedia has a series of reasonable articles on a few of them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporting_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attentional_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attributional_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias

You could probably also blame some of these too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memory_biases

I think it's this, but it's more than just confirmation bias when losing due to bad luck, it's also not understanding odds and statistics enough to know whether they actually got it in good/their opponents played it badly. I remember a guy whining at me on Stars for "sucking out" on him with AKs against his QQ that we got all in on the flop, saying that he was 80% to win and I was an idiot, when in reality it was a flip and I had a slight edge on him. I think that most riggies are generally like that.

I am not siding with any Op here on this debate thread just found this post very interesting.

Online Poker Is Rigged

Prove it isn't. Oh, wait. You can't.

Yet:

1) In order to maxmize profits while avoiding alienating their customers, pachinko parlours in Japan knowingly rig their machines to favour fixed losses or gains of a certain degree (even being able to set the percentage of losses or gains that the machine puts out), and scatter the different settings of riggedness throughout the machines in the parlour each and every day. This is an idea that can easily be applied to online poker sites, as they are both electronic platforms and have complex structures on the inside, whether those structures be mechanical parts or stems of code.

And if you have a well-paid team of very smart, very mathematically prowessed programmers designing the algorithms, I'm sure there's a way to apply a similar system to online poker programs so that variance, or EV calculations at the very least, do even out to some plausible degree over some sort of volume of hands that the average player will never play in . I've played a million hands myself and have yet to see a heater last more than 600-800 hands. And I'm pretty content with even just calling a situation where all my solid hands hit solid cards postflop and hold up in most big pots a heater for me, personally. Maybe I just run that bad at [s]rigged[/s] online poker.

2) Even if you take away the deception that the game is fair towards everyone, you can't take away people's desires for thrills, excitement, and fun. And if they don't care much to be smart with their money, you can't just take away their disregard for money so easily, either. This is why so many people are so content with mediocre excuses like, "why would they risk alienating their entire player base?" and automatically believe that there's no way online poker could possibly be rigged and the sites running the programs would get away with it at the same time. And it's just human nature to want money, which is why online poker sites would actually want See #1 to figure out how you rig a game with everyone knowing and still make it one of the most popular real-money games in its respective culture -- and we're talking about a country where real-money gambling of any sort is illegal.

3) Not to mention many people would mindlessly trust the words of a faceless "third-party" company -- companies that most of us have never actually heard of in particular -- who goes to say that these sites are completely legitimate. I'm only being given someone's word on it. Someone who I can't trust, especially based on what they say alone -- where's the objective pieces of evidence that led you to make this conclusion? Why can't I get to see these things?

4) And where's this computer that monitors the random noise in the air for its RNG anyways? I have no doubt that such a machine would exist at all, but why should I just believe that online poker sites really use them if that machine is ? This hypothetical RNG does not involve using a top-secret piece of equipment, I'm pretty sure, so why can't I at least see a video of it in its mammothly stature while a staff member shows us how it works? Perhaps because it doesn't exist?

tl;dr - There's no reason to not be a skeptic about blocks of code that take your money. Show me concrete evidence that online poker isn't rigged, since if it isn't rigged, said evidence would definitely exist.

You know what I just did ? I went to ask Google about this.

(Google is a very large website that helps people to find things on the internet. Now you know about it I bet you'll use it lots !)

So, I asked Google about hardware random number generators, and about the pokerstars shuffle. Google told me about some web pages, and told me that stars uses a device from ID Quantique, and then it even told me how to find ID Quantique themselves on the internet. That was really amazing because ID Quantique are in Switzerland, and that's like really far away.


http://www.idquantique.com/true-rand...-overview.html

Turns out that you could even buy one yourself (how awesome is that !), and test it to your heart's content. Do come back and let me know what you find out when you do !

Agreed. There's also the Dunning-Kruger effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill.

Many of the rigtards claim to be great poker players, when they clearly aren't.
The also refuse to believe that anyone else actually makes money playing poker, when it's clear that many do. If they actually spent some time reading strategy threads, they might realise that they have leaks in their game that can be fixed.
But the rigtards don't come here to learn. They come here to bitch and moan. It's pathetic, really.

According to the stats guys, that statement is not correct. It cannot be proven that it isn't rigged. However, according to the same stats people, if it is rigged than it can be proven.

You have to understand that you play poker vs people, and people have tendencies. People ultimately decide how they play the hand, whether it is rigged or not. Bad players often cannot get away from a hand when there are clear signs from their opponents that they were beat. That is not to say that great players don't make bad calls, but they do make less mistakes.

The "so called rig" cannot and will never be able to determine how people will play. All over the world there are people who are excelling in online poker, they put in the hard work, they also have huge downswings and yet they are winning consistently. Most people that complain about a site that is rigged, are in general not good players and overestimate their own skill. They do not realise that poker isn't an easy game and want to make as much cash as soon as possible, then to find out that such isn't an easy task and now start to blaim other factors instead by starting at themselves.

Yes you are. Are you ashamed of it?

Show me concrete evidence that you don't beat your wife, since if you don't, said evidence would definitely exist. Oh wait, you can't.

Liar, liar wife beater b.s. over and over...

"I see patterns" "They can rig it and have it look random" b.s. over and over...

It is in Manx Telecom's Douglas North facility in the Isle of Man
(Source: http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/busin...ming-1-1788699)

More information about that facility is available online here:
http://www.manxtelecom.com/business/...ta-centre.aspx

I'll pass this idea along. That said, it's electronic so I doubt that video of it would be very exciting - it's not as if there's a giant deck of cards that keeps getting flung up into the air to choose the next card.

btw, it doesn't monitor random patterns in the air, it is the thing linked by AlienSpaceBat above.

lol you never stop amazing me with your posts....who has the over inflated EGO?

Just literally every riggie that's posted any hands they've played.

You are talking about people who have actually played hands & not the shills in here that dont play at all right?

Which shills don't play at all? (Wiki, maybe.)

Interesting stuff here. Looking back at the beginning of this thread youll see 5thstreethog has been clouding the truth about these rigged sites and pushing his faith based belief that online poker deals a fair game for over 4 years! That is one dedicated site promoter/affiliate, whatever he is.
Other obvious site promoters there that arent here now,but saying the same crap as these shills over and over. Otatop, king of site promoters, must be there, just didnt look hard enough.
Give it up. The more you defend the OLP scam, the dumber you seem.

*

Pretty impressive page. Eliminate bingo-boys post, and you have lots of solid evidence to show online poker is rigged.
To wakeup!, what you described happens to ALMOST everyone thats been unfortunate enough to get caught up in the online poker scam. Now that youve seen the obvious, as so many others before you, just dont let yourself get tricked by the infestation of site defenders/affiliates, etc. that live in this thread. Ill say again, It happens to almost all. A very small minority get a fair deal, only because the sites couldnt pull it on everyone or it would be just to obvious, and everyone would leave eventually. There has to be a few solid winners for the obvious reasons.

*

I get this feeling you dont even think about what you write anymore. Seems like you just pick a response out of the site promoters handbook to counter whatever truth has been stated.
And again, if you actually played, the proof of rigging slaps you in the face every time you site down to participate in the OLP scam.

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The mighty subs who never rebuys? Call him a dreamer??!!! Sir, I am offended!!!
You are the one who opened my eyes!!
I now SCREAM......VARIANCE, WORK ON MY GAME, RANDOM, NO "CASH OUT CURSE". Ive seen the light!
Stupid 90% that say its rigged (real players at pokerscout) using their common sense! Off with their heads!!

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2and2isfive, try a forum with real players, not a bunch of shills, site promoters, affiliates, site and 2+2 employees, since they will disagree with you no matter what while defending the rigged OLP scam at the same time. The difference is like night and day.

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Shillarious! 3690 pages later and the hand history myth is still being used as the answer to spotting the blatant and obvious deal manipulation. I quess it is the perfect response for all the employees, site promoters, etc. Since its useless, this response is a winner!

You make some very good points. I requested a $500 cash out from Cake in March and I have yet to see the money leave my account. Cake Poker is likely a Ponzi Scheme, in my opinion, and they are using the US players as a cushion. I initialized the cashout in the first place because I had gone on a decent run (turning gold coins into over $1500) and I could feel my luck start to reverse. I knew my account was going to zero so I cashed out the minimum and left myself the rest to play with. A did go bust later and because I refuse to deal with that crooked website, I deposited $100 to Lock. Within a day or two, my money had grown to $250+ and I was feeling really good about the site. It was a bit suspicious though, as I felt like I was running very hot. It felt like I was hitting sets on flops 1/3 times with pocket pairs. I then had the idea to contact Cake and ask if I could transfer my pending $500 cashout to my name on Lock Poker, because they have a more reasonable cashout policy. They said it could not be done. It was about that time that my account took a nice dive. It has been almost impossible for me to win constantly. I good session is if I manage to lose a little or break even and make some money from rakeback. I go from doing very well playing .5-1NL on Cake to not being about to win at .02-.04NL. This is just the typical pattern I see on these websites. I don't know how it works. I don't know if winning players get marked. Or perhaps it is American players that get marked. Maybe winning American players, but there is something VERY VERY wrong with the Cake software. Hands just do not hold up. Pair over pair is not a big favorite. It almost feels like even money. When I get all in with AA vs something like 45 or 89, I dread seeing the cards to come, and I feel like I am going to have to get very lucky to win. This isn't a natural feeling. Poker didn't used to be like this years ago. I used to love seeing that I am all in with AA vs QJ -- now I say "ugh here it comes, this is going to be a brutal way to lose". It is impossible to win on this site if my dominating hands can't hold up vs these poor players. And when I look at the pokertableratings of these guys that suck out on me, usually it is a huge loser, graph going straight down. Why do these people call 50BB with 910 offsuit and crack my QQ? It makes no sense. Why does my AK beat A6 what seems to be maybe 60% of the time. Most importantly, why is it the pots that are 200BB+ that I seem to get sucked out on most consistently. There is one answer. It is about money redistribution.

Now before you shills chime in, understand that I am an American player, I am supposed to be profitable and usually get my money in with the best of it. Things could be great for you guys. Perhaps Pokerstars is totally clean. I actually can't wait for PokerStars to be legal in the US again (I never thought I would say that). I am writing this because I think there are probably people that can relate to what I am saying. I have played online poker for many years, and I know something is very wrong with the Cake software. The bad beats are so predictable, so common, and just so very sickening. You really can go from running normal to playing in a state where it is impossible to win. It is hard for me to explain, but I know many of you know exactly what I'm talking about. They will drain your account or make you tread water at a certain level for as long as they please, and there is no way to get past it.

After all, we are talking about a company that will accept deposits immediately that shows up on a credit card statement as some bogus name, but cashout and 6 months later ... nothing.

Well if you can think of a more concise way to make my point, please let me know. While you are at it you could explain what is wrong with pointing out that somebody is lying when they are clearly lying. If your lies were true and I was paid to post here I would be pleased to write a bit more. Yes, I just called you a liar again.

Perhaps we could have a chat about this to make the thread less repetitive for you:

So last night im up $20 in the .05/.1 blinds. Im playing on two tables. So far ive only played 60 hands and already ive been dealt pocket pairs 10 times and 9/10 of those times i make a set on the flop i folded half of
Those pockets preflop tho. On table 1 I get dealt KK on the button I play a psychological game so I raise modestly like im trying to steal the bb he raises I call. The flop is 438, I check he raises I reraise he calls. The turn is a 7 I check he raises, I reraise thinking he is bluffing he goes all in i make the mistake and call he shows the straight and i loose the $5 i had on that table.. No big deal I get ready to call it a night up $15 when on table two im dealt AA i raise 4xbb Only the big blind calls.. The hand plays out very similar to the one on table 1 I lose to the straight. So after bad play I end the night even still no big deal. But now im even more suspicious of lock poker of course they arnt to blame for me losing my money, but what are the odds of being dealt KK AA consecutively and losing to the straight both times, and I only played 60 hands! Not to mention being dealt the same hand and seeing the same cards show up on the flop and turn a week before! If this only happened to one out of a thousand ppl and only a certain times I can understand. I mean ive seen ridiculous hands at wsop, but what the shills need to acknowledge is that this is happening to a lot of people and not just the sore losers/ conspiracy theorists/ donkeys/ low lifes are complaining.

I honestly dont mind if the shuffle is rigged to produce more wet boards. Theoretically i get more experiance out of playing less hands that way, but mosr who win at lock and think that that makes them a good poker player are deluding themselves. This is bingo more than it is poker.. The way I see it Lock poker has an uncanny reseblance to American Democracy.

Did you even play any online poker?

and...does he know the meaning of the term 'solid evidence'?