Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-23-2009, 01:03 PM   #5276
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Change of pace.

My amusement.

A break from you responding to every post and calling everyone a ****** while they call you a shill is nice once in a while.
So, basically you woke up this morning and decided that you were going to be an arsehole.

Fair enough.

I suppose that some mentalities need to do that every now and again.

Quote:
I yield the final word in this mini chat to you ...
OK, let's see if you are an honest arsehole today.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 01:32 PM   #5277
slick123
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 68
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
What do you do for a living now Scooper now that you have retired from rigged poker after losing a lot (guess you were one of the losing players riggedness did not help).

That being said, I wonder if qpw plays at times as well




If he is not lying then he should make his hand history database available for confirmation.

Otherwise, he is lying (even if he thinks he is telling the truth). This is such a basic human behavior that it is amusing to see you (who seems to have a bit more IQ then the other riggedologists) blindly support anything they say when they have no documentation for it at all.

Do you believe everything in life that easily? If so cool, I have lots of bridges to sell you cheap. Trust me, I am telling the truth because I say it is the truth. If you don't believe me because you do not like me that is fine, I understand. In that case, I will create a gimmick account, say online poker is rigged, earn your trust, then offer to sell you a few bridges.




A few people? Think about it. There are literally hundreds of poker rooms out there. There have been tons of poker rooms which have failed over the years as well.

If they are all rigged in the manner you suggest then there would be hundreds or thousands of people "in on it" even if somehow only a couple were "in on it" for each room.

Many of these people have moved on or lost their jobs when the rooms they were working for failed.

I realize riggedologists live in a world filled with could have and maybes, but eventually some common sense needs to be used.

Is it possible that thousands of people in on it, many of whom are no longer in the industry, are keeping this dark secret? No.





Even if we pretend you know what you are talking about you need to show how this non randomness translates into anything that causes issues with players.

A simple example - if I always pick the number 72 when choosing between 1 and 100 and I ask people to guess my number - if they have no idea that I always pick 72 then that non randomness is meaningless.

Sure many have claimed they have discovered the hidden patterns on Stars, and yet they all tend to be losing players. Why are they not making millions yet with their discoveries?




When spade is done his billion hand study, you know what impact that will have on riggedologists like you and Scooper? None. You will still assume it is all rigged against you after you have a bad beat.

I actually am looking forward to seeing his research, mainly because it will be interesting to see in and by itself and to a lesser degree it will be fun to see how riggedologists adapt their theories to account for the study (I have faith we will see some fun stuff in that regard).




No one is disputing that anything is possible. That is not the approach you and fellow riggedologists take though. You guys say it is definitely rigged even though none of you have actually shown any actual data or proof. That is called an opinion, nothing more.

You are free to believe whatever you like, and you will see for yourself that no amount of studies or data that may show your beliefs to be incorrect will change your opinion.

All the best.
About 6 weeks ago my 8 year old daughter came into our room complaining that she was having trouble falling asleep. I told her I had an idea that would help. My wife asked me what it was, so I told her that there were some PokerStar's shills on 2+2 that were the most boring posters on the planet and I wanted to see if our little girl would fall asleep after reading a few paragraphs of the boring tripe.

We've fixed up one of our spare bedrooms into a home office for me which is where I keep my desktop. I took my daughter into the home office and brought up some of your especially boring posts where you keep listing some 10 commandment crap over and over and over again. My daughter started reading your boring crap and sure enough within 5 or 6 minutes she was sound asleep. I picked her up and carried her into her bedroom where she slept soundly the rest of the night. I didn't think much about it even though my wife and I had a good laugh.

A funny thing happened about 2 weeks ago. I was surfing the net on my laptop while sitting in the airport waiting for my flight to board. Out of the corner of my eye I see a short balding man walking towards me and I'm thinking don't sit next to me. Well guess what? He sat right next to me. I couldn't help but notice that he was reading my laptop screen so I pulled up 2+2 and searched for one of your long boring posts. The short balding man took the bait. Within 5 minutes he was sound asleep and snoring like a log. I quickly and quietly got up and moved about 50 yards away to another part of the terminal. About 30 minutes later my flight started to board and I walked past my previous seat. Sure enough the short balding man was still sleeping like a baby. I hope he didn't miss his flight.
slick123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 01:39 PM   #5278
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
About 6 weeks ago my 8 year old daughter came into our room complaining that she was having trouble falling asleep. I told her I had an idea that would help. My wife asked me what it was, so I told her that there were some PokerStar's shills on 2+2 that were the most boring posters on the planet and I wanted to see if our little girl would fall asleep after reading a few paragraphs of the boring tripe.

We've fixed up one of our spare bedrooms into a home office for me which is where I keep my desktop. I took my daughter into the home office and brought up some of your especially boring posts where you keep listing some 10 commandment crap over and over and over again. My daughter started reading your boring crap and sure enough within 5 or 6 minutes she was sound asleep. I picked her up and carried her into her bedroom where she slept soundly the rest of the night. I didn't think much about it even though my wife and I had a good laugh.

A funny thing happened about 2 weeks ago. I was surfing the net on my laptop while sitting in the airport waiting for my flight to board. Out of the corner of my eye I see a short balding man walking towards me and I'm thinking don't sit next to me. Well guess what? He sat right next to me. I couldn't help but notice that he was reading my laptop screen so I pulled up 2+2 and searched for one of your long boring posts. The short balding man took the bait. Within 5 minutes he was sound asleep and snoring like a log. I quickly and quietly got up and moved about 50 yards away to another part of the terminal. About 30 minutes later my flight started to board and I walked past my previous seat. Sure enough the short balding man was still sleeping like a baby. I hope he didn't miss his flight.

Yet you seem to enjoy frequenting this thread repeatedly. Do you enjoy punishing yourself or are you just stupid?
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 01:40 PM   #5279
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
A funny thing happened about 2 weeks ago...
it's people like you who kept "Friends" on television for years and years.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 02:15 PM   #5280
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
it's people like you who kept "Friends" on television for years and years.
nh, sir, nh.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 02:30 PM   #5281
Bingo_Boy
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,872
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Very nice post mate. You should try this on other sites namely Stars and FTP.

I notice that no one is discussing this and the only one's who have threw in accusations that it's BS.

What do you make of this shills?

Let me guess your comical responses.

1. It's a BS study, the guy is lying.
2. He just ran bad. The coin flip argument or Variance.
If your read before you posted you would realise that people had already pointed out that the fundamental errors in his calculations made his post completely worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burden2 View Post

But they would need access to data across many players- millions of hands. Nobody has that access. You really can't look at just 1 account to see if the RNG is approximately random. Agreed?
I do agree, which is why you rigtards looking at your own accounts, analysing it from memory and then deciding it is rigged is absolute nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
About 6 weeks ago my 8 year old daughter came into our room complaining that she was having trouble falling asleep. I told her I had an idea that would help. My wife asked me what it was, so I told her that there were some PokerStar's shills on 2+2 that were the most boring posters on the planet and I wanted to see if our little girl would fall asleep after reading a few paragraphs of the boring tripe.

We've fixed up one of our spare bedrooms into a home office for me which is where I keep my desktop. I took my daughter into the home office and brought up some of your especially boring posts where you keep listing some 10 commandment crap over and over and over again. My daughter started reading your boring crap and sure enough within 5 or 6 minutes she was sound asleep. I picked her up and carried her into her bedroom where she slept soundly the rest of the night. I didn't think much about it even though my wife and I had a good laugh.

A funny thing happened about 2 weeks ago. I was surfing the net on my laptop while sitting in the airport waiting for my flight to board. Out of the corner of my eye I see a short balding man walking towards me and I'm thinking don't sit next to me. Well guess what? He sat right next to me. I couldn't help but notice that he was reading my laptop screen so I pulled up 2+2 and searched for one of your long boring posts. The short balding man took the bait. Within 5 minutes he was sound asleep and snoring like a log. I quickly and quietly got up and moved about 50 yards away to another part of the terminal. About 30 minutes later my flight started to board and I walked past my previous seat. Sure enough the short balding man was still sleeping like a baby. I hope he didn't miss his flight.
You wrote the little story about your daughter and then the one about the man in the airport but they were both so funny that you had to post them both. Are you sure your daughter didnt write the second one?
Bingo_Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 03:07 PM   #5282
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
I don't know you but I can see that you are - whatever denials you may make - a rigtard fellow traveller.

It's a ploy that has been used before by the slightly more intelligent proto-rigtard; come here and couch your paranoia as if it was an open minded question. Then try to put forward the idea that rigtards and non-rigtards are two sides of the same coin.

They are not.

A rigtard has a very strong belief that has no supporting evidence and where there is much logic and evidence that are strong contra-indications of rigging.

Non rigtards OTOH can provide sound statistical and logical arguments against rigging.

Another of the rigtard ploys is to demand explanations and, when told that there are plenty already extant in this thread say they can't be bothered to read it and expect others to repeat their work over and over again.



I would think that's enough and the fact that you are still having problems is because you are not thinking about the 'problem' in the correct way so that you can use your maths knowledge to calm your fears.



Very flattering but I'm afraid I haven't the time to continually repeat what I and others have already covered (often many times) in this thread.

I'd suggest that you:

1) Read the thread.

2) Think (hard) about the problem.

3) Apply the maths skills you have.

If you then have any very specific problems that haven't been covered come back and ask.
As I concluded from your posts, you strongly belive, that:
- all people who question poker sites legitimacy are rigtards, or proto-rigtards, or rigtard fellow travelers or ...
- as those, they are stupid.
- they either completely math illiterated, or have some knolwdge, but cannot put it in use in corret way. Otherwise, they inevitably would come to "right" conclusion (sure, that OLP is not rigged).
- taking in account all above, it doesn't worth your time to engage in discussion and explain them anything.
- it's just enough to dub them as idiots, paranoics, and so on. Then all audience should addmit you are on the right side.

I will not say something bad about all non rigtards. Many of them a reasonable persons. But those who share that oppinion ... are not so reasonable.

As of specifics of your post, there is not much to say.
But I concluded that you are even not a non rigtard. Because
Non rigtards OTOH can provide sound statistical and logical arguments against rigging,
but you cannot. Or, despite my numerous requests, could not so far. Especially, statistical arguments.
Or, you could, but was for some reason reluctant. I wonder what the reason it can be. If you are going to say "Because reigtards won't understand anyway", then this does not apply to me: I asked you several times, asserting that I have an ability and willingness to understand. May I come to decision that your cannot?

I'll give you one more chance.

Recently, I posted some my concerns about great (in my understanding) insentives for poker sites to manipulate games. I didn't see something like this before in this thread. So, it was not covered before I posted. (If it was, show me).
I read about advantage sites may have by helping weak players at good players expenses and some more similar theories. That is different story. I don't want to speak about those theories because I don't see any way to make any estimate to show if it would really give sites something.
I only want to be shown that my "theory" has major flaws.

Although my post was answered in some way by couple of people, I did not find sound arguments against my point that poker sites may have some insentives. I don't claim they do something. Just motives. So, you can, using your exceptional math skills, show me, where I was wrong. Don't hesitate to put in good use some statistical terms like p-value, confidence interval, chi-test, split-square method, whatever (don't ridicule my frivolous using of statistical terms, it's irrelevant). If I'm unable to understand, I will go to my nephew.

So, please, go crash my theory.

Otherwise, you should admit, that poker sites may have some motives.
I eargently ask you don't fall in idle word exchange. Please, be specific and at first hand discuss only my "theory", using your strong grasp of mathematics.
Then, you may show me that there are some reasons for them not to do that and that the reasons overweight possible advantage. You may choose don't try to explain to me what was said not once in this and others threads

But first admit the motives.

Am I logically sound? (This is a rhetorical question. I know, I'm not, in your oppinion ).
Unlike you, I don't command you to make search to find my post #5094. Here it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh_spb View Post
http://www.partygaming.com/prty/uplo...ults110309.pdf

This is official PartyPoker 2008 annual financial report. There I've found some usefull information:

Net Revenue from Poker: 274.0 millions
Clean EBITDA from poker: 76.1 millions
(that is: Earnings before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization.)

They don't declare their profit from poker separately from others their enterprises, like PartyCasino, PartyBingo, PartyBets and so on. I can assume the proportion of profit to EBITDA is same or close for all activities.

Total EBITDA: $133.3 millions
Total Profit after tax: $77.8 millions

EBITDA from poker: $76.1 millions
After using proportion calcualtion clean profit from poker comes to about 45 milions.
Let it be $50 M. This is their legitimate earnings.

Now some more information from the report.
Unique active players: 1,241,300

Here dependable part of my research ends and estimate starts.
Question 1: what part of all players are winners.
I read different estimates, ranging from 1 to 20%.
Question 2: How much all winning players, including big winners and small stake grinders, win on average.
A read an oppinion that, "slightly" good player can win 10,000, very good - 50-100K.
Let's remain on a conservative side and put it this way: 1% of players wins 20,000 per year on average. Or, 12,240 PartyPoker players may win altogether $250 mln. Theoretically, If PartyPoker could somehow cut possible players earnings in half, it would be additional gain of $125 millions. 2.5 times more than their legitimate earnings.
If to be less conservative and to take 5% for winning players, $30,000 as an average yearly winnings (note, it includes 6 figures winners along with others), or allow PartyPoker take away from winners more than half, the ratio may easily be 10 and more.

Well, if you still call it "made up", then I'm sorry for this.
Better yet, prove I'm wrong. I'll be glad. As I said, those concerns about rigging bother me.
Good luck.
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 03:23 PM   #5283
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh_spb View Post
As I concluded from your posts, you strongly belive, that:
- all people who question poker sites legitimacy are rigtards, or proto-rigtards, or rigtard fellow travelers or ...
Wrong!

Only those who, after reading the logical and statistical explanations of why their pet theories are nonsensical continue to spout them without acknowledgement of the elucidated flaws.

Quote:
- as those, they are stupid.
Some are. Those that ignore any argument to the contrary (as opposed to showing a flaw in the argument.)

Quote:
- they either completely math illiterated, or have some knolwdge, but cannot put it in use in corret way.
They do tend to be mathematically illiterate because those who understand some maths don't make the schoolboy mistakes that a lot of these people make.

Quote:
Otherwise, they inevitably would come to "right" conclusion (sure, that OLP is not rigged).
They would almost certainly come to a belief that the probability of any major poker site being rigged was low.

Quote:
- taking in account all above, it doesn't worth your time to engage in discussion and explain them anything.
Actually, that's not true.

I have often explained points but as the result, as I've told you before, is that they either ignore the explanation or respond by calling: 'shill'. So I don't give the explanations all the time.

Quote:
- it's just enough to dub them as idiots, paranoics, and so on. Then all audience should addmit you are on the right side.
All the non-rigtard audience, yes.

Quote:
I will not say something bad about all non rigtards. Many of them a reasonable persons. But those who share that oppinion ... are not so reasonable.
An interesting rigtard style viewpoint.

Quote:
But I concluded that you are even not a non rigtard. Because
Non rigtards OTOH can provide sound statistical and logical arguments against rigging,
And, voila! you should now vanish in a puff of logic!

If you say that non-rigtards: "Non rigtards OTOH can provide sound statistical and logical arguments against rigging" then you obviously agree with the arguments and have no further need of enlightenment on your journey from rigtardedness to normality.

Well done.

Quote:
but you cannot. Or, despite my numerous requests, could not so far. Especially, statistical arguments.
I've told you. I'm not doing your research for you. The information in is this thread.

You may have such a sense of your own importance that you thinl other posters should stop what they are doing and action your requests.

I don't.


Quote:
Snip of vast chunk of waffle
Quote:
Unlike you, I don't command you to make search to find my post #5094. Here it is.
You shouldn't have bothered.

Really.

You shouldn't have.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 04:00 PM   #5284
ICMoney
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ICMoney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Honesty IS the best policy.
Posts: 8,280
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Jokerstars

Spoiler:
ICMoney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 06:04 PM   #5285
suzzer99
Save the Cheerleader, Save the World
 
suzzer99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: givin' 'em the business
Posts: 98,560
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

**** poker.
suzzer99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 06:16 PM   #5286
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Wrong!

Only those who, after reading the logical and statistical explanations of why their pet theories are nonsensical continue to spout them without acknowledgement of the elucidated flaws.



Some are. Those that ignore any argument to the contrary (as opposed to showing a flaw in the argument.)



They do tend to be mathematically illiterate because those who understand some maths don't make the schoolboy mistakes that a lot of these people make.



They would almost certainly come to a belief that the probability of any major poker site being rigged was low.



Actually, that's not true.

I have often explained points but as the result, as I've told you before, is that they either ignore the explanation or respond by calling: 'shill'. So I don't give the explanations all the time.



All the non-rigtard audience, yes.



An interesting rigtard style viewpoint.



And, voila! you should now vanish in a puff of logic!

If you say that non-rigtards: "Non rigtards OTOH can provide sound statistical and logical arguments against rigging" then you obviously agree with the arguments and have no further need of enlightenment on your journey from rigtardedness to normality.

Well done.



I've told you. I'm not doing your research for you. The information in is this thread.

You may have such a sense of your own importance that you thinl other posters should stop what they are doing and action your requests.

I don't.






You shouldn't have bothered.

Really.

You shouldn't have.
To be true, I didn't expect some reasonable reply. Just usual nonsencsical junk. All that you succed in is you caugth me on a mistaken highlight. Non rigtards OTOH can provide sound statistical and logical arguments against rigging were you words.

And again, you could not provide any logical or statistical evidence. You claim that you are very busy. What are you doing? I (and many others) see that you spend hours daily posting here approximately same gibberish. Can you put aside some of your valuable time and get yourself prepared to requests to prove your words?

Time after time you state that there are plenty of evidence but cannot show just one of them. This is one of the things you accuse rigtards in (I mean, saying something with no evidence). Non-rigtards should expel you from their community because you, by refusing to show something you claim existing, make rigtards to think that your evidences simply don't exist.

At same time they do exist. Just two of them:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...7dc4a7f?hl=en&
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...7010a4879f4c6b

They are not completely persuasive, leave space for argument, but yet exist. I hoped to see something new with your help, because your yelled more than others about this. I picked a wrong man. Sorry.
Save those links and use them later if somebody asks for evidence. This is in order not to look like ...

Don't bother to answer: you have nothing to say.
Really, don't

This is a very good sign that some people really work on the tools to analyze real HH. Great respect to Spadebidder!
I'm dying to here his work is finished and to see results of his tests.
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 09:13 PM   #5287
bluesbassman
veteran
 
bluesbassman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: In the pocket
Posts: 2,362
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
They do tend to be mathematically illiterate because those who understand some maths don't make the schoolboy mistakes that a lot of these people make.
How much math have you studied? I'm thinking I know much more math than you do.

And I'm a "rigtard."
bluesbassman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 01:04 AM   #5288
slick123
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 68
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
In the interests of full disclosure were you born a dickbrain or did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?
I asked you shills a simple question which shouldn't be hard to understand for anyone with minimal intellectual skills. How many of you shills are paid by Stars?

Instead of answering the question you and the rest of the shills resort to personal attacks? Is that the best you can do? LOL

You intellectually and ethically challenged lightweights have lost the debate. You only have two chances to redeem yourselves, slim and none and none just left town. Game Over!
slick123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 02:09 AM   #5289
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
I asked you shills a simple question which shouldn't be hard to understand for anyone with minimal intellectual skills. How many of you shills are paid by Stars?
Misleading question.... zero shills in the thread, one poster paid by Stars. If you're going to ask trick questions that don't apply to the people you're speaking to, I'm not sure why you expect responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
Instead of answering the question you and the rest of the shills resort to personal attacks? Is that the best you can do? LOL



Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
You intellectually and ethically challenged lightweights have lost the debate. You only have two chances to redeem yourselves, slim and none and none just left town. Game Over!
Is this one of those commandments where the rigtard states an opinion and declares it a fact? Does it count even if he doesn't believe what he's saying?
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 03:32 AM   #5290
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Well done.

You finally got off your backside and took responsibility for finding the information that you wanted to find instead of sitting there demanding that others do it.

Now, if you still have any specific concerns remaining by all means enumerate them and we'll probably try to address them.

What isn't going to work is whining that you're 'not sure' and then trying to make a case by whining some more that no one will do your research for you.

Specific concerns may well get you an answer.

Specific concerns with evidence will pretty much gyarantee one.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 03:36 AM   #5291
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesbassman View Post
How much math have you studied? I'm thinking I know much more math than you do.

And I'm a "rigtard."
Hallelujah !!!



At last we have someone who has studied maths past degree level and is a self admitted rigtard.

Now we might get somewhere.

Just give us your evidence, then explain the maths you have used to come to your rigtard beliefs and this thread might make some real progress.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 04:34 AM   #5292
Pyromantha
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,228
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
You intellectually and ethically challenged lightweights have lost the debate. You only have two chances to redeem yourselves, slim and none and none just left town. Game Over!
Did you mean 'slim just left town'?
Pyromantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 04:55 AM   #5293
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyromantha View Post
Did you mean 'slim just left town'?
LOL, well spotted.

So unintentional irony is still alive.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 04:58 AM   #5294
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
I asked you shills a simple question which shouldn't be hard to understand for anyone with minimal intellectual skills. How many of you shills are paid by Stars?

Instead of answering the question you and the rest of the shills resort to personal attacks? Is that the best you can do?
Tell you what.

You tell us when you stopped beating your wife and child and we'll answer your question.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 06:09 AM   #5295
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Then just give the customers that pay cash a little less change then they should get. A quarter here, a dime there - most will not notice and those that do you can say it was an honest mistake. Or those that pay by credit or debit card, make a bit more by inverting some digits "by mistake" or if it is automatic, you program your cash machine to add a little bit once in a while without showing it. Those computer things are easy to program after all.

I assume you do all of this because you would gain a bit more money. That is the only thing that matters when running a business, right?

You can certainly deny these true facts, but if you do I would be curious what reasons you could possibly give to not make this extra money. Why are you defending this business you are in so much?

Oh, and congrats on figuring out what I am doing here, as it is deeply complex and subtle. Feel free to avoid directly answering any of the facts I stated above as well, it will only confirm you steal (did it again...)

All the best.
I think OP is rigged because of what I ve seen. It was never really my argument that OP is rigged just because it could be.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 06:39 AM   #5296
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
I think OP is rigged because of what I ve seen.
I'm going to answer this post on the basis that I'm talking to an intelligent adult who actually has an interest in getting to the truth.

Believe it or not, Sooper, I get the feeling that things aren't right almost everytime I play.

One day I'll not be able to win with two pair. Another, everytime I get a three of a kind someone beats it with a flush.

These are things that are what any Rigtard worth his salt would call 'total bull****'.

But then again there are other days. Like the day I got three straights in 100 hands. And the royal flush I got on Monday (takes bow). There's also the fact that if, for example, I think I can't win with 2 pair and then examine the HH's, I'll usually find that there were a couple of uneventful 2P wins that I'd just forgotten about.

I'm sure the problem that the riggers have is that, like a runaway reaction, the more they think there's something wrong the more they focus on every minor (and statistically expected) statistical anomally and the greater their conviction that: 'something must be wrong'. The cycle continues until they are unshakeable in their belief and simply dismiss any contrary argument out of hand.

So whenever I examine some anomally I find find that there is actually nothing really very out of the ordinary about it. The only reason I do any analysis is because it invariable leads one to learn a little more about applied probability.

I also rely on the logic that no major poker room would rig the game because, even if they were corrupt scumbags who would like to, they would not risk ruining a reliable continuing revenue stream for a short term increase.

So I have no religious need to believe that no poker room is rigged. It would not surprise me enormously (it would surprise me a bit) if one of the smaller ones was one day discovered to be doing something not entirely kosher - as, indeed, happened with AP/UB.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 10:01 AM   #5297
K13
banned
 
K13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 531
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I took out my one huge pot which was skewing my chart



PS rigged like expected.
K13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 10:27 AM   #5298
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Well done.

You finally got off your backside and took responsibility for finding the information that you wanted to find instead of sitting there demanding that others do it.
Links I posted I've foung more then a year ago, not now. What I asked from you is more statistical evidence.
Those what I had, in some way, adress particular "rigged" theories.

Although it's theoretically imposibble to disprove general statement: "OLP is rigged", the more statistical data you have, the more such theories can be ruled out. Then something new would appear. You non-rigtards (and I would join you) had to rule out new ones.
I know, you already wrote that it's unwise to adress every nonsense rigtard would bring up. But if it was more or less scientifical discussion it should go as I said: all rigtard theories should be investigated. Surely, except very obviouse cases of nonsense.
Otherwise, you can pound on silly theories that easy to disprove even without statistic and avoid tough ones by statement: "burden of proof is on an accuser".

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Now, if you still have any specific concerns remaining by all means enumerate them and we'll probably try to address them.

Specific concerns may well get you an answer.
In above I partially explained why I still have some conserns. Specific concerns I have about statistical test referenced in my post, are:

1. Time of the research. They are form year 2003. Till year 2005 I even didn't care about rigging.

2. Source of samples. In the researches I referenced source of samples is anonymous.
According to modern rigging theories, "sites rigged to help weak players". Obviously, it should be against strong players. This is the only reasonable aproach, IMO.

To disprove this particular "theory" researcher must conduct two sets of tests: one on a data base with hands from "strong" players, and the other for weak players. Maybe, only "strong" players DB would be enough.
By "strong player" I mean long term consistent winner. Not self-proclaimed ones.

Now question: where I as a regular player can find DB of "strong" players?
Even if my self-assertion as a good player is reasonable (not sure), my individual DB of ~ 1 M hands would be insufficient, I suppose. Also, it's from a player who already complains about bad run of cards and as such is not a relyable source of samples. Bad luck streak of almost arbitrary lenth can happen to anybody without any rigging. Just because of varience.
If I make a request on a forum, I'm going to receive a bunch of HH not less anonymous then those in public data bases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Specific concerns with evidence will pretty much gyarantee one.
What kind of evidence do you expect? Is like this good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weevil99 View Post
Let me try one more time. This is a hypothetical situation (not from my database or anyone else's -- I'm making it up as I go):

A player starts yet another "IT'S RIGGED" thread, but doesn't post any proof. You, Markusgc, reply in the thread asking for proof. He says that ever since he moved up in stakes, he has been losing to set over set way more than he ought to. He posts his numbers from PokerTracker.

You, Markusgc, analyze his numbers and conclude that there was only a 0.0001315 probability that he would have run into a bigger flopped set as many times as he did (taking his sample size into account, of course) in a fair game. Other people run the numbers and get the same answer, so there is no chance of a miscalculation.

What can you conclude from this and how do you respond to the OP?
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Like this:

Why the hell is someone who has such an execreble understanding of probability playing poker?

Do you not have the vaguest clue?

Let me give you a clue:

There are hundreds of millions of hands of poker played per day.

You think a p=0.0001315 event happening to you means you've been boomswitched.

So let's see; how often does a 1.3 in ten thousand event happen if there are (at a very conservative estimate) 100 million hands played with obviously at least two people in each?

About a quarter of a million times a day.

Or three times a second.

Now, go and learn at least the basics of probability before you come back here with your ridiculous theories.


That's how I'd respond.
BTW, in your response you are right. But, please, explain what kind of evidence would deserve your seriouse attention. Is it possible for an individual player to get an evidence of that kind? How?

The only thing that makes an excuse for you is at the end of your responce to my post.
Don't take this as an offence.
Let me do the same.

Last edited by Markusgc; 06-24-2009 at 10:48 PM. Reason: upgraded quotes re: post #162
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 10:38 AM   #5299
Pyromantha
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,228
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
I took out my one huge pot which was skewing my chart



PS rigged like expected.
The difference between your actual results and expected results is smaller than the two biggest pots you lost. If you had won those two pots and the red line had been slightly positive you would have been fine with that I guess? So effectively you are saying it is rigged on the back of two hands?
Pyromantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 10:44 AM   #5300
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

For dsh_spb

OK, let me address the issue of what evidence would
be agreeable.

Let's say I came up with a standard theory that a site was boomswitching poorer players at the expense of better ones.

Firstly I'd go to one of the sites that sells HH's.

I'd buy a few million of these HH's. (Assumption: you trust these sites to provide real, played, hands.)

I'd then process these so that I could rank each player who'd played more than 10,000 hands according to their win rate.

What I would do then would be to plot 'stuff' such as the number of AA hands each player got or the number of times a player who had AA333 was beaten by a flush.

Then I'd do correlation tests on (n each event) v (overall winrate).

If there was a strong positive or negative correlation for any tests I'd (having checked the programming very carefully ) claim that the site was rigged.

I've actually done this for a few tests as part of other research.

One point to note is that the people running the sites know that there are many players with the expertise to perform these fairly simple statistical analysies. This is one reason why I don't think they'd be stupid enough to try it.

I'm sorry I've been taking the p1ss of your posts up to now but you must appreciate that there have been a number of posters who've started off sounding very reasonable but have, when their questions have been answered to the best of our ability, just yelled: 'shill' and stomped off.

Last edited by qpw; 06-24-2009 at 11:12 AM.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive