Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-22-2009, 12:13 PM   #5201
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
A lot of rigtards say they don't think OLP is rigged.

They then make statements that demonstrate that is exactly what they do believe.
Please, show me one example of such a statement made by me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Quite the reverse.

It's the rigtards that have a religious belief. You will rarely (if ever) hear anyone make a statement that OLP is not rigged because such a dogmatic assertion would require proof and there is no absolute proof that OLP is not rigged.
A lot of non-rigtards say they don't think OLP is not rigged.

They then make statements that demonstrate that is exactly what they do believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Well, it depends on where the confidence is placed. I have a great confidence that if you stand in the path of a Eurostar going flat out and don't get out of the way you'll end up a gooey mess. That is a perfectly reasonable thing in which to have confidence.
At such an extrem you are right. In more complicated matters open mindedness is preferable, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Well actually, there are a lot of 'tards who make catagorical statements that OLP is rigged. Read this thread.
But there is even more of 'tards as well who don't make categorical statements. As I said, it's my observation. I don't insist it's 100% correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Just as well because that would really mark you out as a buffoon.
that was quite a purpose of this statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
What you basically need to do is gain a sufficient understanding of probability maths and statistics that you can see the size of the evidence base, understand the tools available to analyse it and make an intelligent assesment based on that understanding.
I have some basic understanding of probability and statistic and I capable to learn futher. Could you please help me to find tools to analyse HH and set of statistical analyses already existing. I suppose, you have done this research that lead you to your so strong non-rigged position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
When you can do that you will stop embarrassing yourself by making veiled comments that have a sub-text indicating that you think having serious doubts about something when there is a vast amount of logic and evidence to indicate that it is kosheris evidence of intelligence.
No, I don't think so. For you it is obvious that it is cosher, because you not only know this logic and evidence, but you trust this logic and evidence.
I cannot argue with you, because I don't know what a you talking about.
Please, point me to some samples of this logic and evidence that indicate it is cosher. That is exactly what I look for to ease my mind. This is kindly request, not polemic!

In meanwhile, it is not so obviouse for me.

Questioning something obviouse is evidence of ******ness. But unfortunately, there is very few truly obviouse things in this world. Usually, something obviouse to one group of people is not so obviouse, and often looks simply wrong for the others. Should I give examples? Cristianity and Islam, communists and democrats, many more and that never ends. Humankind should learn to be tolerant. Unfortunately, it's never gonna happen.
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 12:36 PM   #5202
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh_spb View Post
Please, show me one example of such a statement made by me.
Read the post. I never suggested you made such a post.

Clue: a lot != all


Quote:
A lot of non-rigtards say they don't think OLP is not rigged.

They then make statements that demonstrate that is exactly what they do believe.
You are trying to be too clever.

What you say above is simply untrue. Those of us who try to inject some sense into the 'tard's thinking simply say that it does not seem likely and there is no evidence.

That's it. It's not likely.


Quote:
At such an extrem you are right. In more complicated matters open mindedness is preferable, IMO.
But 'tards are extreme. They hold a position when there is a vast amount of evidence available and none of it supports that position. That is intellectually extreme and also extremely daft.

Quote:
that was quite a purpose of this statement
Whatever that might mean.

Quote:
I have some basic understanding of probability and statistic and I capable to learn futher. Could you please help me to find tools to analyse HH and set of statistical analyses already existing. I suppose, you have done this research that lead you to your so strong non-rigged position.
In this instance the tools I was refering to are maths and stats tools. What you need is a good probability text and a good stats text.

It's no good looking at the output of programs if you don't understand the underlying maths theory.

I think even the most commited 'tard would change his position if he really understood the maths. As it is (for example) they just see some numbers, get annoyed that people are saying things that don't support their paraniod rantings and start shouting: 'shill'.

Quote:
Please, point me to some samples of this logic and evidence that indicate it is cosher. That is exactly what I look for to ease my mind. This is kindly request, not polemic!
There is a great deal in this thread.

Just back up until you see the 'tards shouting shill.

A few posts above that there is usually a fairly serious piece of logical argument or some probability explanations.

Quote:
Questioning something obviouse is evidence of ******ness.
Actually, that isn't true.

It's not the actual questioning that's ******ed.

It's the continued belief that an accepted idea is incorrect when all available evidence supports that idea.

For example, there was nothing stupid about questioning the idea that the world is flat particularly when such evidence as was available was not one sided.

There would be a gread deal more stupidity involved in questioning the approximately spherical nature of the planet now as there are vast amounts of evidence that is is, indeed, roughly 3 dimensionally round.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 01:07 PM   #5203
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh_spb View Post
Please, point me to some samples of this logic and evidence that indicate it is cosher. That is exactly what I look for to ease my mind. This is kindly request, not polemic!

In meanwhile, it is not so obviouse for me.
Start by searching for SPADEBIDDER's posts in this thread. There is detailed numbered analysis there. Now I suppose its possible that Spade is some shill who is rigging his results, or just faking the whole thing, but he puts together a good argument and we can only judge random people on the internet so far.

However, these random people have managed to expose some other problems in the industry and is currently the best that we have.

I like to say in my line of work that we have to deal with the best evidence that we have in front of us. We try to get what we can, and we should be prepared to alter our view should new evidence present itself.

Suspicions are fine. But the more people dig into rigging, the less there seems to be there. Suspicions are all the 'tards really have.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:07 PM   #5204
Username^^
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,784
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

full tilt is rigged !
Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:12 PM   #5205
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Username^^ View Post
full tilt is rigged !
For silent running?
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:28 PM   #5206
MarkFB
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 91
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Here are some real numbers that I spent 3 weeks collecting. I did this because I thought i was seeing a very unacceptable trend at UB.

The following data collection is from every single hand played in a 30 day period. I had spent the last three months playing WSOP steps at UB. During this time, I played dozens of games against many of the same players. While reviewing my hands I looked for hands were I was ahead post flop and my opponent needed runner-runner to beat me. I did not count the hands where runner runner would give them a flush, but only incidents where a set, two pair, boat, etc.... was the result. In my calculations, I was very conservative in favor of UB. Basically, a runner runner with 6-8 outs should hit no more than once every 200 times. If you figure in the times there are only 3-5 outs that number goes to 1 out of every 800 or so. In the month of May, I found myself in 176 hands where post flop my opponent need runner runner with 8 outs or less to win. In those 176 hands, my hand improved 23 times, opponent hit one of the cards 96 times neither of us hit turn or river 43 times and opponent hit runner runner 37 times. Of the 23 times my hand improved, the opponent hit runner runner 8 times and won 7 of those times. Of the other 29 times he hit runner runner, he won 27 times and we chopped twice.

To sum up, when very conservative odds say that runner runner should hit .5% or once every 200 times, on Ultimate bet I saw it happen 37 out of 176 times, 21% of the time. That is to say that it happened on UB 40 times more often than the mathematical odds would dictate. And again, remember that the 1 out of 200 is a very generous number giving UB the benefit of doubt.

The numbers speak loud and clear to me. I can no longer say "oh, that's poker" or "just bad luck"

I won't play online poker for $$$ any more until the US legalizes, regulates and taxes it. Until then there is no reason for the current online gaming industry to be legitimate. US residents are nothing more thana giant cash cow to them. Future legal US gaming sites will be run by those already running brick and mortar casinos and they will not jeopardize their businesses with possible litigation, fines and gaming license issues from online scamming.
MarkFB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:31 PM   #5207
senjitsu
banned
 
senjitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: λαγχάν
Posts: 3,058
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkFB View Post
Basically, a runner runner with 6-8 outs should hit no more than once every 200 times. If you figure in the times there are only 3-5 outs that number goes to 1 out of every 800 or so.
tell us how you came up with these figures. Show your work please.

extra points will be given for immdiately admitting youre wrong.

extra points will also be given if you can figure out the percentage chance of hitting a runner runner 8 outer, 7 outer and 6 outer. No extra points if you have to post asking for help in the math forum.

Last edited by senjitsu; 06-22-2009 at 02:37 PM.
senjitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:33 PM   #5208
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

You play on the dodgiest site available and when you don't like it you give up real money OL poker altogether?

Good game.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:37 PM   #5209
slick123
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 68
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

In the interest of full disclosure, how many of you shills are being paid by Stars and the rest of the sites?
slick123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:38 PM   #5210
senjitsu
banned
 
senjitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: λαγχάν
Posts: 3,058
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
In the interest of full disclosure, how many of you shills are being paid by Stars and the rest of the sites?
[x] being paid by stars and other sites
[x] being paid with your monies.
senjitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:39 PM   #5211
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick123 View Post
In the interest of full disclosure, how many of you shills are being paid by Stars and the rest of the sites?
In the interests of full disclosure were you born a dickbrain or did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:41 PM   #5212
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by senjitsu View Post
[x] being paid with your monies.
Yes, that's true.

They rig the RNG against a few selected players and then pay us the money they've purloined to come on here and make ludicrous claims that the RNG's are not rigged.

As if!
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 02:56 PM   #5213
Pyromantha
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,228
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkFB View Post
Here are some real numbers that I spent 3 weeks collecting. I did this because I thought i was seeing a very unacceptable trend at UB.

The following data collection is from every single hand played in a 30 day period.....
[ ] Data Collection
[x] Purely made up numbers to make bad beat rant sound more impressive
Pyromantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 03:28 PM   #5214
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh_spb View Post
Thank you for reply.
First of all, I spoke not about 10%, but about 50% or more of players earnings (which, BTW, gives them 100+% increase in their profit). I wouldn't be bothered if it were 10% at most.
There's no way they could get away with 50% for more than a month. There are enough mass grinders on all the sites that would notice that suddenly they're all losing more over 50,000+ hands. Plus a site that was found taking half its customers money would lose a lot more than 20% of its players.

I went with 10% because it was at least somewhat realistic. 50% would have to be the stupidest company on earth.
Quote:
More important, I wanted you to explain why they can get away with cheating only for a few month. Why are you sure there is no way for them to cheat and never be caught?
There are enough players who put in 50,000+ hands per month that they would notice any huge irregularities (like suddenly making half as much money) and gather their hand histories together as evidence, just like what happened with the AP/UB super users.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 03:48 PM   #5215
UncleKraut
adept
 
UncleKraut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Counting Mobnees
Posts: 920
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I used to believe that there's no way online poker is rigged. I told people in poker rooms that were your average "riggtard" how stupid they were for thinking online poker is rigged. However now with all the different scandals coming to light, I'm not so sure anymore.

You can't argue with the fact that "rigging" towards the worse player would be very beneficial to the sites.

Maybe the game of poker is rigged, and that's what we're really arguing about.
UncleKraut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 03:59 PM   #5216
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Quote:
I have some basic understanding of probability and statistic and I capable to learn futher. Could you please help me to find tools to analyse HH and set of statistical analyses already existing. I suppose, you have done this research that lead you to your so strong non-rigged position.
End of quote.

In this instance the tools I was refering to are maths and stats tools. What you need is a good probability text and a good stats text.

It's no good looking at the output of programs if you don't understand the underlying maths theory.
To what extent should I know math and statistic to understand results of statistical analysis? Is math in a volume of master degree program in Experimental Phisics OK? What I meant is applications for analysing HH and/or description of statistical analyses they can do. Trust me, I will try hard to understand. If not, I can consult my nephew who holds PhD in Mathematics from MIT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Quote:
Please, point me to some samples of this logic and evidence that indicate it is cosher. That is exactly what I look for to ease my mind. This is kindly request, not polemic!
End of quote.

There is a great deal in this thread.

Just back up until you see the 'tards shouting shill.

A few posts above that there is usually a fairly serious piece of logical argument or some probability explanations.
It's pretty hard to find something in this long-long-long thread. Especially if you don't know what to look for.
You regulars should have a template with links to posts that you think prove your position best. May be, in case of riggtards it won't help. But it would be great for advanced riggedologists, like me. Otherwise, after couple of hours of digging in this thread and finding nothing, I got frustrated and started to think, there is nothing that backs up your believes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Start by searching for SPADEBIDDER's posts in this thread. There is detailed numbered analysis there. Now I suppose its possible that Spade is some shill who is rigging his results, or just faking the whole thing, but he puts together a good argument and we can only judge random people on the internet so far.

However, these random people have managed to expose some other problems in the industry and is currently the best that we have.

I like to say in my line of work that we have to deal with the best evidence that we have in front of us. We try to get what we can, and we should be prepared to alter our view should new evidence present itself.
I only finded Spades's post saying he is on the way to present something. I'm sure he had something more before, but I didn't find. Let's wait till his work is done.
Also, see above.
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:02 PM   #5217
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by senjitsu View Post
tell us how you came up with these figures. Show your work please.
He did.

He posted it was rigged.

Rigged against him.

Because he knows it is rigged against him.

And because he saw the patterns.

Then he quit (correct choice).

None of his losses were his fault.


He was pretty clear on it once you ignore the made up data that he will never verify with an actual database of hand histories.
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:11 PM   #5218
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh_spb View Post
To what extent should I know math and statistic to understand results of statistical analysis? Is math in a volume of master degree program in Experimental Phisics OK?
If you don't even know if the maths you've done is the correct sort of maths then it probably isn't.

Quote:
What I meant is applications for analysing HH and/or description of statistical analyses they can do. Trust me, I will try hard to understand. If not, I can consult my nephew who holds PhD in Mathematics from MIT.
I would go straight to him if I were you.

It's so much easier if you can get someone to explain it to you face to face so that you can immediately ask when you hit a problem.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:20 PM   #5219
senjitsu
banned
 
senjitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: λαγχάν
Posts: 3,058
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
He did.

He posted it was rigged.

Rigged against him.

Because he knows it is rigged against him.

And because he saw the patterns.

Then he quit (correct choice).

None of his losses were his fault.


He was pretty clear on it once you ignore the made up data that he will never verify with an actual database of hand histories.
lol yeah i was talking about his (erroneous) belief that a runner runner 8 outer is .5%

my standards are pretty low when it comes to rigtards, but they should at least have to know what the odds are _supposed_ to be before they claim theyre not what theyre supposed to be.
senjitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:32 PM   #5220
Username^^
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,784
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

full tilt is rigged
Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:36 PM   #5221
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
If you don't even know if the maths you've done is the correct sort of maths then it probably isn't.



I would go straight to him if I were you.

It's so much easier if you can get someone to explain it to you face to face so that you can immediately ask when you hit a problem.
I don't know you, you don't know me. But you speak to me as I'm a complete novice in math. I wanted you to have a clue when you suggest me something related to statistics.
In the course of Math I studied mathematical statistics as well, but only basics of it in application to experimental data processing. I think that's enough for understanding results of statistical tests. If you still think my math education is insufficient or of incorrect sort, then, please, explain what is needed, in you oppinion.

I would go to my nephew if I hit a math related problem. So far, I have problem with poker, or poker tools, or poker analyses. He is not a poker player and isn't helpfull. So, I came to you.
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:40 PM   #5222
Username^^
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,784
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh_spb View Post
I don't know you, you don't know me. But you speak to me as I'm a complete novice in math. I wanted you to have a clue when you suggest me something related to statistics.
In the cour... ... So, I came to you.


Full tilt is rigged ?
Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:45 PM   #5223
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleKraut View Post
I used to believe that there's no way online poker is rigged. I told people in poker rooms that were your average "riggtard" how stupid they were for thinking online poker is rigged. However now with all the different scandals coming to light, I'm not so sure anymore.

You can't argue with the fact that "rigging" towards the worse player would be very beneficial to the sites.

Maybe the game of poker is rigged, and that's what we're really arguing about.
Wow! The first converted non-rigtard!
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 04:51 PM   #5224
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Post 4552


Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
This sample is mostly low stakes, all holdem. Includes all seen flops turns and rivers.



Players tend to see flops when they hold high cards, so low cards show up on the board more often due to card removal. The opposite of your claim.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 05:16 PM   #5225
dsh_spb
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Post 4552
Thank you.
Even though this graph proves nothing in terms of random shuffling, it crashes funny theory that aces come more often on the flop.
Do you know why it is doesn't prove randomness? Because nobody can calculate EV of seeng each rank card on the flop. It accounts on too many factors. Am I right?
Anyway, this is something. More examples, please.
dsh_spb is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive