Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.01%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9859. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-28-2009, 04:57 PM   #476
Rek
HUZA 2008
 
Rek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 10,034
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Up until now, it seemed like you were one of those on-the-fence guys with an open mind.
I was going to post the exact same thing.

Sooper, you sounded like you had seen a few things that had left you wondering about how legit the sites really were. If I am honest, these same thoughts go through my mind in those dark times when I am on an extended bad run. I "know" these runner runner's are going to hit before they happen. Then in the cold light of day I look at the true odds of these ridiculous events happening and I know those odds are not that ridiculous after all.

If you play this game long enough you are going to see lots of "unreal" events. If you didn't see them it would be rigged. All we want when people shout "rigged" is some evidence but all we get is that you know it's rigged. This is a waste of time and thats why most rigtards get abuse.

I could just say to you not to play live because the casinos appoint good mechanics to fix the cards. I have no proof but I just know it - live is rigged. Why would casinos not employ mechanics? Get the picture?
Rek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 04:58 PM   #477
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

I'm going to start a thread on a Golden Tee forum and say that I prefer real golf.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:00 PM   #478
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
It's often a tactic of dumb people
So youve done it again calling me dumb. Please Im enjoying the debate but theres just no need for that. I thought you werent holding a grudge. Maybe its because I bothered you earlier.

Quote:
Rigtard: Ford is run by lizard people, Lee Iacocca bought a lizard robe from my brother.
Skeptic: Lee Iacocca didn't work for Ford
Rigtard: Oh, because you don't like my opinion you're going to attack me!
What do lizards have to do with this. Actually you clearly dont like my opinion for whatever reason and you are attacking me personally.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:00 PM   #479
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
No I am not on the fence. I believe that some of the sites are manipulating the game in favour of the poorer players. How exactly they do it I dont know. If you have played over a million hands your stats are going to end up close to where they should.

So are you saying that because the stats are close to what they should be that the occasional hand hasnt been manipulated in favour of a so called "boomswitched".
account

What I think is going on is something like action flops are thrown in every once in a while and certain hands are altered in favour of poor players. This isnt going to have a massive impact on your database.
Wow...use your head. According to your theory the sites rig the RNG so that fish stay in longer...BUT in the long run it all evens out...so tell me, how does the site benefit considering that in order for the stats to even out they will have to rig it against said fish at a later point in time.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:02 PM   #480
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
So youve done it again calling me dumb. Please Im enjoying the debate but theres just no need for that. I thought you werent holding a grudge. Maybe its because I bothered you earlier.
You know what is important in debates? Evidence. Since you have already said that evidence doesn't matter, what exactly are you doing?
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:05 PM   #481
Bobo Fett
Carpe Diem
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 52,350
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Sooper,

and (multi-quote)

are great. Then when you quote people, we know who you're quoting, and we can even click on the little and see the original post being quoted.
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:08 PM   #482
GroundFloor
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: trudging slowly over wet sand...
Posts: 220
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Madoff View Post
I PM me if you'd like to get in on the ground floor.
in
GroundFloor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:08 PM   #483
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
I was going to post the exact same thing.

Sooper, you sounded like you had seen a few things that had left you wondering about how legit the sites really were. If I am honest, these same thoughts go through my mind in those dark times when I am on an extended bad run. I "know" these runner runner's are going to hit before they happen. Then in the cold light of day I look at the true odds of these ridiculous events happening and I know those odds are not that ridiculous after all.

If you play this game long enough you are going to see lots of "unreal" events. If you didn't see them it would be rigged. All we want when people shout "rigged" is some evidence but all we get is that you know it's rigged. This is a waste of time and thats why most rigtards get abuse.

I could just say to you not to play live because the casinos appoint good mechanics to fix the cards. I have no proof but I just know it - live is rigged. Why would casinos not employ mechanics? Get the picture?
Your right again I could be totally wrong and the sites could be totally legit. Thats a possiblility. Of course cheating goes on in live poker but at least you can see the players your facing and the cards are in front of you. Its not so easy for the casino to rig the game but somewhere there will be cheating players/dealers scamming poker players. There is evidence that pokersites manipulate the RNG in stud games and from what Ive heard from software programmers it would be very simple to manipulate/programme the RNG to their own ends.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:10 PM   #484
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
There is evidence that pokersites manipulate the RNG in stud games and from what Ive heard from software programmers it would be very simple to manipulate/programme the RNG to their own ends.
I'm assuming you have a link to the proof...cause it would be pretty stupid to say there is evidence and then not elaborate on it right?
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:11 PM   #485
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Sooper,

and (multi-quote)

are great. Then when you quote people, we know who you're quoting, and we can even click on the little and see the original post being quoted.

LOL I always wondered how to do that.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:13 PM   #486
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
I'm assuming you have a link to the proof...cause it would be pretty stupid to say there is evidence and then not elaborate on it right?
I think its common knowledge that Pokersatrs admitted that when they use more than the 52 cards they manipulate the RNG to make sure no one gets the same card again.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:14 PM   #487
Bobo Fett
Carpe Diem
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 52,350
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Sooper,

and (multi-quote)

are great. Then when you quote people, we know who you're quoting, and we can even click on the little and see the original post being quoted.
FMP. That other button () is for quick replies.
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:15 PM   #488
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
No I am not on the fence. I believe that some of the sites are manipulating the game in favour of the poorer players.
If they were poor players but it was rigged in their favor, wouldn't they be rich players?
Quote:
How exactly they do it I dont know.
Expert analysis. Why weren't you interviewed on 60 Minutes?
Quote:
What I think is going on is something like action flops are thrown in every once in a while and certain hands are altered in favour of poor players.
I went out of a tournament the other night when the other player in the hand made a couple of horrible decisions. But since it wasn't a cash game, the action flop didn't increase the rake, so that couldn't have motivated the site to rig it for the vastly inferior player to win the pot. However, that guy didn't manage to cash in the tournament either. So I just don't know why they rigged that hand that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
So youve done it again calling me dumb. Please Im enjoying the debate but theres just no need for that. I thought you werent holding a grudge. Maybe its because I bothered you earlier.
What do lizards have to do with this. Actually you clearly dont like my opinion for whatever reason and you are attacking me personally.
I'm sorry, you don't want to be called dumb? Would "statistically-challenged" suit you better?

I suspect you understand that lizards don't have anything to do with this discussion specifically.

You said that I'm trying to go away from the subject because I mentioned that you had trouble grasping some ideas which I feel that any adult would get without any trouble.

Then I said, no, it's YOU who are ignoring my arguments with accusations of attacks and gave you a random example of what you were doing with lizard people in the starring role.

You chose to do the exact same thing again.

So, tell ya what... here's what I said:
Quote:
if they didn't get rewarded with their five-percenter (you know that means FIVE TIMES OUT OF 100 it'll get there, right?) occasionally (probably 1/20 times or so) they wouldn't play.
You explain to me how that in any way that implies agreement with you. I think it quite clearly conveys the method by which one could determine a process to prove or disprove this alleged rigging, but maybe I'm wrong. If any other posters ITT would like to tell me what they think that means, I'd love to hear their feedback.

Last edited by Markusgc; 01-28-2009 at 05:20 PM.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:16 PM   #489
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
I think its common knowledge that Pokersatrs admitted that when they use more than the 52 cards they manipulate the RNG to make sure no one gets the same card again.
I'm not familiar with their RNG, but I think if the program doesn't allow duplicate cards that isn't rigging that is common sense. For future reference "rigged" means "to manipulate fraudulently".


Also could you reply to the below?

Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Wow...use your head. According to your theory the sites rig the RNG so that fish stay in longer...BUT in the long run it all evens out...so tell me, how does the site benefit considering that in order for the stats to even out they will have to rig it against said fish at a later point in time.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:19 PM   #490
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
LOL I always wondered how to do that.
not that you're dumb or anything....
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:20 PM   #491
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
You explain to me how that in any way that implies agreement with you. I think it quite clearly conveys they method by which one could determine a process to prove or disprove this alleged rigging, but maybe I'm wrong. If any other posters ITT would like to tell me what they think that means, I'd love to hear their feedback.
I think it was you saying "rewarded" that threw him off.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:30 PM   #492
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
I'm going to start a thread on a Golden Tee forum and say that I prefer real golf.
Y'all thought I was joking, didn't ya?
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:30 PM   #493
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
If they were poor players but it was rigged in their favor, wouldn't they be rich players?

Expert analysis. Why weren't you interviewed on 60 Minutes?

I went out of a tournament the other night when the other player in the hand made a couple of horrible decisions. But since it wasn't a cash game, the action flop didn't increase the rake, so that couldn't have motivated the site to rig it for the vastly inferior player to win the pot. However, that guy didn't manage to cash in the tournament either. So I just don't know why they rigged that hand that way.

I'm sorry, you don't want to be called dumb? Would "statistically-challenged" suit you better?

I suspect you understand that lizards don't have anything to do with this discussion specifically.

You said that I'm trying to go away from the subject because I mentioned that you had trouble grasping some ideas which I feel that any adult would get without any trouble.

Then I said, no, it's YOU who are ignoring my arguments with accusations of attacks and gave you a random example of what you were doing with lizard people in the starring role.

You chose to do the exact same thing again.

So, tell ya what... here's what I said:

You explain to me how that in any way that implies agreement with you. I think it quite clearly conveys the method by which one could determine a process to prove or disprove this alleged rigging, but maybe I'm wrong. If any other posters ITT would like to tell me what they think that means, I'd love to hear their feedback.
1. No they would be breakeven instead of losing and small winners instead of breakeven.

2. No am I not an expert analyist and No 60 minutes didnt contact me.

3. Not every hand(in my opinion) is manipulated. Thats a shame about your tournament, but its poker it happens.

4. No statistically challenged would not suit me at all thankyou very much. I fully understand and have studies poker statistics in particular.

5. I understand that lizards have nothing to do with this thread but why did you include them?

6. For the last point it looks as if your saying they need to be "rewarded" more often than the 5% for them to keep coming back.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:33 PM   #494
Bobo Fett
Carpe Diem
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 52,350
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
6. For the last point it looks as if your saying they need to be "rewarded" more often than the 5% for them to keep coming back.
"if they didn't get rewarded with their five-percenter (you know that means FIVE TIMES OUT OF 100 it'll get there, right?) occasionally (probably 1/20 times or so) they wouldn't play."
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:35 PM   #495
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt
Wow...use your head. According to your theory the sites rig the RNG so that fish stay in longer...BUT in the long run it all evens out...so tell me, how does the site benefit considering that in order for the stats to even out they will have to rig it against said fish at a later point in time.
First impression is important to a customer. If the customer has a good first impression they may keep coming back and depositing long after their initial "boomswich" has run out. If the customer has a bad first impression they will go elsewhere.
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:38 PM   #496
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
1. No they would be breakeven instead of losing and small winners instead of breakeven.
actually, that was a little joke. if it was rigged for the poor players, they wouldn't be broke, thus you couldn't tell they were poor. 'cause that's how you tell if a poker player is poor - THEY'RE POOR.
Quote:
2. No am I not an expert analyist and No 60 minutes didnt contact me.
you're too modest. perhaps they will next time if I send a link to this to them.
Quote:
3. Not every hand(in my opinion) is manipulated.
So how many hands? I heard it was all in the timing recently. Do you agree?
Quote:
Thats a shame about your tournament, but its poker it happens.
it happens in non-rigged poker or rigged poker?
Quote:
4. No statistically challenged would not suit me at all thankyou very much. I fully understand and have studies poker statistics in particular.
odd you chose to come here empty-handed then
Quote:
5. I understand that lizards have nothing to do with this thread but why did you include them?
'cause they're sort of dinosaur-like. Fun fact: Brontosaurus means "thunder lizard"
Quote:
6. For the last point it looks as if your saying they need to be "rewarded" more often than the 5% for them to keep coming back.
If that's what you got from it, I apologize. What I was saying is they get it exactly as often as they're supposed to and until you can show otherwise you're really wasting your precious time - didn't you say time was at a premium? What are you still doing here!?!?!?
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:39 PM   #497
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
...What I think is going on is something like action flops are thrown in every once in a while and certain hands are altered in favour of poor players. This isnt going to have a massive impact on your database.
Sooper,

In the Stephen Meares thread, he had a similar theory - that the flop, turn and river cards were fiddled to favour particular players. Let me explain a way to make such 'rigging' impossible.

As you might know, there are two possible ways for a computer to shuffle a deck:

a) Static Shuffle - Just like in a live casino, the cards are shuffled, set, and then dealt out.

b) Continuous Shuffle - While the hand is in play, the cards are continuously being shuffled, and then, when the pre-flop (or the flop or turn) action is finishe, the shuffling is stopped, and then the next card is dealt.

If a deck is set, like in a static shuffle, before the hand starts, then it is literally impossible to create an "action flop" (or any other form of rigged shuffle that is based on community cards) since there is no way that a site can possibly predict what action will take place.

So, if you want to play at a site where such rigging is impossible you need to only play at sites which have a static shuffle.

The easiest way to do this is to just email the various sites, and ask them whether they use a continuous or a static shufffle.

Here are the contact details for the five largest sites/networks according to Poker Scout:

PokerStars - support@pokerstars.com
Full Tilt - support@fulltiltpoker.com
iPoker/Playtech - http://www.playtech.com/html/index.php?page=43
PartyPoker - info@partypoker.com
OnGame/bwin - https://home.bwin.com/page.aspx?view=contact

(If someone has an email address for iPoker or OnGame/bwin to use then feel free to post it - I couldn't find one easily)

Here's a draft email that you can send them:

Quote:
Hello,

I'm interested in how the cards are shuffled in poker games at your site.

Do you have:

a) Static Shuffle - Just like in a live casino, the cards are shuffled, set, and then dealt out.

OR

b) Continuous Shuffle - While the hand is in play, the cards are continuously being shuffled, and then, when the pre-flop (or the flop or turn) action is finishe, the shuffling is stopped, and then the next card is dealt.

Could you please let me know?

regards,
xxxxxxxx

Now, obviously you don't trust the sites involved (otherwise this thread wouldn't exist) so the next step is to then contact their regulators.

Here are the details on their regulators that I could find from their respective websites:

PokerStars - www.gov.im/gambling
Full Tilt - http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/
iPoker/Playtech - CDPoker (one of the skins) says they're regulated by Gibraltar, but I couldn't find their listing on http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/gov_dept...net_gaming.htm - still, that's probably the place to start
PartyPoker - http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/gov_dept...net_gaming.htm
OnGame/bwin - http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/gov_dept...net_gaming.htm

I just went to the respective sites home pages and followed the links from there.

Hopefully this will help you get underway to confirming to yourself that online poker is safe and secure.

Feel free to PM me or post here if you have any queries.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:39 PM   #498
fozzy71
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
fozzy71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 8 Mile + 2.5
Posts: 37,558
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
... If you have played over a million hands your stats are going to end up close to where they should.
......
I think it's safe to assume you dont have degree in statistics.
fozzy71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:40 PM   #499
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
First impression is important to a customer. If the customer has a good first impression they may keep coming back...
If the customer has a bad first impression they will go elsewhere.
So how am I doing thus far? Good, right? You keep coming back...
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 05:40 PM   #500
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
First impression is important to a customer. If the customer has a good first impression they may keep coming back and depositing long after their initial "boomswich" has run out. If the customer has a bad first impression they will go elsewhere.
Well then shouldn't there be some data that takes the first thousand hands or so of a large sample of players and shows some sort of departure from the typical variance?

You know why there isn't any sort of data that shows that? It's because it doesn't exist.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive