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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 06-14-2009, 08:23 AM   #4676
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

"Johnny doesn't buy a lot of the advice being puked out by " poker pros" who publish books just to make a buck."


"Johnny has two more books in stores now..."
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Old 06-14-2009, 08:46 AM   #4677
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
How did you get from "and isnt the fact theres no evidence despite huge samples sort of evidence they arent rigged?" to "actually proving positivly that they arent rigged is impossible" ??
the fact no evidence exists isnt positive prove, i.e. 100%, that sites arent rigged. the likelyhood they arent just gets closer to 100% the bigger the samples are.

if you define "rigged" as the software handling at least one specific input incorrectly (not doing what it should, from a customer point of view), its impossible to prove it isnt rigged. say if you click 3 times on someones holecards you get to see them, that would be rigged. if it doesnt work, it doesnt mean that clicking on them 4 times wont work either.
so no matter how often you click, i doesnt prove that you wouldnt see your opponents cards if you clicked once more.
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:38 AM   #4678
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Did he say "missclicked" after the hand was over? or immediately? Could be a superuser-It has happened and will likely happen again. Just like nuclear bombs, nobody wants to except the fact that eventually it will happen again. Its statistically impossible not to happen. WHAT CAN HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN.
The hand with 4 left went button raises to 3 BB, I was in the sb with 15 BB I shove, the BB did an immediate call (the type when one clicked a pre-action button) with his 18 BB stack, the button took a while (he had 40 BB and it was then bubble) and folded.

When the flop came the BB screamed in all caps that he misclicked. He flopped a pair and got his kicker paired on the river.

Do I think it was a 1 hour + tense bubble match all to set up that hand by a super user? No. Do I think it was a misclick? Yes. Was I happy about it after? Well duh, no.

It is actually a tad offensive to have to deal with people who imply it was all rigged when it was just a weird mistake that got lucky by a fairly solid player (everyone was playing tough, we even talked about it during a break). As I said before, sometimes #$%^ happens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Is money not a motive? As long as the owners get their profit what do they care if the employees are getting a cut to, as long as its under the radar? AP/UB proves fraud in online poker. Why are you in denial?
It is way to simplistic to say that any person or organization ( including publicly traded ones) would do literally anything to make a few more bucks. Seriously, why don't sites hire people to break into customers houses, kill them, and steal all their possessions? It would make more money after all.

Also, if the sites were all crooked, why would they do these really stupid crimes as suggested by riggedologists. They would do much simpler crimes that yielded more money then intricate 25th century AI made up programs that too many people would know about. Just stop paying cash outs ( as some small poker rooms and lots of online casinos have done).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
I said in my original post that I don't know if online poker is rigged or not, but it is stupid to believe that it can't possibly be rigged. That is what I said and that is what I meant. I don't have any proof that stars or tilt is rigged so I don't know 100% that they are. Some people are not republicans or democrats, they are in the middle. I'm in an area of grey with my beliefs, they are not black or white. For you to say it is impossible for a person to be undecided about something is well, dumb.
This is standard paranoia. You can fill in " I don't know if company xxx does yyy, but it is stupid to believe it cannot happen."

Here look, a couple conspiracy theories about McDonalds. Yes or no, would you say "it is stupid to believe it cannot happen"

The same can be found about any large company, government, union etc.

Welcome to paranoia.

https://www.dpchallenge.com/forum.ph...HREAD_ID=96863

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bl...s/mcdonald.htm

Sometimes a hamburger is just a hamburger.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
LIKE I SAID, I DON'T KNOW IF THE SITES ARE RIGGED. However it has been caught on one major site and who knows if it is going on elsewhere.

The argument amongst the shills was "then why hasn't a company been caught yet". Then when absolute was caught it turned into all kinds of other excuses. Its possible. A major company was caught doing it.
That had nothing to do with rigged software. Why do riggedologists keep pointing to an actual crime that has nothing to do with their theories? Even That K guys bad beat blog whines had more to do with rigged software then the UB/Absolute chantes.

And your use of "shills" pretty much confirms your faith in riggedology. As I said before, stop being such a wimp about your beliefs, just embrace them already as others have done. Seriously, no one likes a half-assed riggedologist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Listen, I make money playing online. I don't play a lot but I win when I do. However its not nearly as much as it is offline.
Live games are much softer then online games. That may actually be a factor... Lot's of marginal players can make some live. Congrats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
Also when I said I lost 11 consecutive all in hands that I had at least a 70% statistical advantage in, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED. It wasn't 10 hands or 12, it was 11 straight hands. Do that math. Remember to add in some 80%'s and 90%'s in there too because I had that advantage in many of them.
I would ask for the database of hands or hand numbers as proof, but we all know that never is presented for varying excuses. However, pretending what you say actually did happen, what specifically do you think was the reason for it? Were they choosing you to screw? If so, why? While no one ever expects you to actually show the hands in question, at least give your reasoning as to why you think they happened, since you are implying that sinister, dark, black ops like forces were at work to screw you for $5 or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
Don't try to play me out for a moron.
You are a fairly standard paranoid riggedologist. I have no idea how smart you actually are, as many riggedologists live fairly normal lives outside of their paranoid hot zone issues.

However, as I alluded to above, would you have similar "what if/it could happen" beliefs about other companies like McDonalds? How about governments? If not, why not? Look over those McDonalds conspiracy theory links and google more for yourself (just enter a large company name with conspiracy theories). Do you think all of them are true? Do you think some of them are a bit insane? Well, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but all demonstrate pretty much the same thinking and reasoning process.

All the best.
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:23 PM   #4679
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Dude who said 11 hands in a row when he's way ahead. All day. You guys need hand history proof. Do you even play poker?

AA < KQ next
AQ < Q9 next
JJ < 52 next
next
next

11 hands in a row is like a million to on odds or more but yeah ... somehow I can hit the lottery everyday with only playing a thousand hands or so.

It be bad business to have it completely "fair". As long as its close enough for it to not jump out at people then you can chalk it up to variance.
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:39 PM   #4680
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
Dude who said 11 hands in a row when he's way ahead. All day. You guys need hand history proof. Do you even play poker?

AA < KQ next
AQ < Q9 next
JJ < 52 next
next
next

11 hands in a row is like a million to on odds or more but yeah ... somehow I can hit the lottery everyday with only playing a thousand hands or so.

It be bad business to have it completely "fair". As long as its close enough for it to not jump out at people then you can chalk it up to variance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Hi K13,

Do you admit that your claims about the Aces coming on the flop too often was false yet?

I see you've posted in this several times since your claims were proved false and you haven't addressed this yet. Why not?
.
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:47 PM   #4681
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

This message is hidden because K13 is on your ignore list.
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Old 06-14-2009, 08:21 PM   #4682
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Just finished reading the thread...took a while and my hurt hurts just thinking about it.
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Old 06-14-2009, 08:54 PM   #4683
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I run as bad as matusow does..... at ipoker sitngos.
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Old 06-14-2009, 08:56 PM   #4684
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by senjitsu View Post
has this actually happened (the teenager hacking the pentagon) outside of a matthew broderick flick
I've never heard of it happening before. Perhaps he thought War Games was a documentary? I dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
Dude who said 11 hands in a row when he's way ahead. All day. You guys need hand history proof. Do you even play poker?

AA < KQ next
AQ < Q9 next
JJ < 52 next
next
next

11 hands in a row is like a million to on odds or more but yeah ... somehow I can hit the lottery everyday with only playing a thousand hands or so.

It be bad business to have it completely "fair". As long as its close enough for it to not jump out at people then you can chalk it up to variance.
I just have to deduce you are either leveling everyone or just dumb as a brick. Not even worth trying to refute your points as you'll see something shiny and stop reading half way through.
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:20 PM   #4685
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpoff View Post
the fact no evidence exists isnt positive prove, i.e. 100%, that sites arent rigged. the likelyhood they arent just gets closer to 100% the bigger the samples are.

if you define "rigged" as the software handling at least one specific input incorrectly (not doing what it should, from a customer point of view), its impossible to prove it isnt rigged. say if you click 3 times on someones holecards you get to see them, that would be rigged. if it doesnt work, it doesnt mean that clicking on them 4 times wont work either.
so no matter how often you click, i doesnt prove that you wouldnt see your opponents cards if you clicked once more.
Yeah, I get your point, but you're using imaginary arguments. Most people who believe that sites are rigged think that if they raise too much, **** can happen. Because they limped, **** happened. If they're up against "that lucky ass ****er", **** will happen. But what about when others lose? Is that just bad luck? I don't get it. It's like they're all paranoid and ****. Too much imagination and over-thinking imo. If there's real proof out there it would be known by now don't you think? But hey, if you think it's rigged, by all means, go ahead and think that.
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Old 06-15-2009, 12:35 AM   #4686
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Snooty View Post
The best bit is, he walked away from the site after the 11 hands, thus taking away the opportunity for the luck to re-balance. For all we know, the next 11 situations might have been him winning when behind - but of course the human psyche tends to ignore this and only focus on the bad beats. But by walking away from the site and not giving the cards the chance to run, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I walked away from poker room and moved to other sites where the same crap kept happening for the past 4 years. Thats right I've played online for 4 years, offline for 20 years. I am a winning online player, and a big winner offline. But the games online are beyond suspicious, even when I win. I voice my opinion in the games and on the forums so I believe they MAYBE tag people and mess with them.

MAYBE the sites use software that analyzes players patterns to get the most money out of them. MAYBE they have a doom switch. MAYBE they have superusers (now that would be too unreal wouldn't it ). There is no telling. The sites aren't regulated. They are free to do what they want.

It is possible to give the right stats to all the tracking programs and still affect hand outcomes. Maybe they do it only to people who don't export hand histories. Who knows what is going on? They have the resources to hire the best computer experts in the world to come up with programs to do these things. But what do I know? Surely only absolute cheated, right?

I have a little money left online and after that I am done online until it is regulated in the US and maybe not even then. I will be 100% sure the game I am playing is not tampered with before I spend another dollar.

Last edited by Jussurreal; 06-15-2009 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 06-15-2009, 12:40 AM   #4687
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by senjitsu View Post
has this actually happened (the teenager hacking the pentagon) outside of a matthew broderick flick
You can't really not know about Pentagon hacks. There are a slew of them.

8. DOJ charges teen with Pentagon hacking - CNET News
A Wisconsin teenager is arrested and charged for allegedly hacking into a Pentagon computer in June and illegally accessing a U.S. Army computer. ... Latest tech news headlines
http://news.cnet.com/DOJ-charges-tee...tagon-hacking/...

1. Alien fan faces life sentence for hacking into Pentagon | NowPublic
so shortly after 9/11, he hacked into 97 computer systems belonging to the Pentagon, NASA, and the US military. For his efforts, the 42-year old Brit is now facing sixty years in US prison.
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/alien...-life-sentence...

2. China denies hacking the Pentagon | World news | guardian.co.uk
In May, the small Baltic country of Estonia was subjected to a three-week wave of hacking that disabled websites of government ministries, ... The Pentagon. Photograph: Angela Stafford/US ... More news
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/04/china.usa

18. FOXNews.com - Pentagon Cyber Attack Forces 1,500 PCs Off Line -
Gates said the Pentagon sees hundreds of attacks a day, and this one had no adverse impact on department operations. ... Breaking News GM, ... Computer Hacking Plagues Department of Homeland Security
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,285932,00.html
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:15 AM   #4688
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I walked away from poker room and moved to other sites where the same crap kept happening for the past 4 years. Thats right I've played online for 4 years, offline for 20 years. I am a winning online player, and a big winner offline. But the games online are beyond suspicious, even when I win. I voice my opinion in the games and on the forums so I believe they MAYBE tag people and mess with them.

MAYBE the sites use software that analyzes players patterns to get the most money out of them. MAYBE they have a doom switch. MAYBE they have superusers (now that would be too unreal wouldn't it ). There is no telling. The sites aren't regulated. They are free to do what they want.

It is possible to give the right stats to all the tracking programs and still affect hand outcomes. Maybe they do it only to people who don't export hand histories. Who knows what is going on? They have the resources to hire the best computer experts in the world to come up with programs to do these things. But what do I know? Surely only absolute cheated, right?

I have a little money left online and after that I am done online until it is regulated in the US and maybe not even then. I will be 100% sure the game I am playing is not tampered with before I spend another dollar.

Let me guess, you aren't willing to disclose your screen name so it can be verified you are indeed a winning player.

However, I think maybe you are more likely to do so than some rigtards as you don't plan on using the account much anymore anyway. So let's have it please.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:21 AM   #4689
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

"It is way to simplistic to say that any person or organization ( including publicly traded ones) would do literally anything to make a few more bucks. Seriously, why don't sites hire people to break into customers houses, kill them, and steal all their possessions? It would make more money after all."

THE BANKS ALREADY HAVE THE CORNER ON STEALING HOMES.

"Also, if the sites were all crooked, why would they do these really stupid crimes as suggested by riggedologists. They would do much simpler crimes that yielded more money then intricate 25th century AI made up programs that too many people would know about. Just stop paying cash outs ( as some small poker rooms and lots of online casinos have done)."

OK so you can be called a denialist.




"That had nothing to do with rigged software. Why do riggedologists keep pointing to an actual crime that has nothing to do with their theories? Even That K guys bad beat blog whines had more to do with rigged software then the UB/Absolute chantes."

Why do denialists deny the fraud that has already happened? You can't make it go away. I suppose you think electronic voting machines are a safe and fair way to vote? gullibility is not a virtue.

Last edited by Jspirit88; 06-15-2009 at 01:36 AM. Reason: too messy
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:46 AM   #4690
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
as you'll see something shiny and stop reading half way through.
Squirrel!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Why do denialists deny the fraud that has already happened? You can't make it go away.
Who's saying the fraud didn't happen? The point he was making is the super user scandal had nothing to do with "rigging" an RNG.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:55 AM   #4691
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Denialist. I thought you said dentist. Speaking of. How do you know that the teeth they pull actually have cavities? Do they ever show them to you? Of course, dentists are rigged, too, right?

If sites were rigged don't you think it would be proven by now? It's all in the numbers. Where are the numbers? Where are all the stats that don't match up? How come no pros are behind the riggedologists?
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:57 AM   #4692
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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"It is way to simplistic to say that any person or organization ( including publicly traded ones) would do literally anything to make a few more bucks. Seriously, why don't sites hire people to break into customers houses, kill them, and steal all their possessions? It would make more money after all."

THE BANKS ALREADY HAVE THE CORNER ON STEALING HOMES.

"Also, if the sites were all crooked, why would they do these really stupid crimes as suggested by riggedologists. They would do much simpler crimes that yielded more money then intricate 25th century AI made up programs that too many people would know about. Just stop paying cash outs ( as some small poker rooms and lots of online casinos have done)."

OK so you can be called a denialist.




"That had nothing to do with rigged software. Why do riggedologists keep pointing to an actual crime that has nothing to do with their theories? Even That K guys bad beat blog whines had more to do with rigged software then the UB/Absolute chantes."

Why do denialists deny the fraud that has already happened? You can't make it go away. I suppose you think electronic voting machines are a safe and fair way to vote? gullibility is not a virtue.
Do you deny that there is a quote function in this forum?
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Old 06-15-2009, 07:52 AM   #4693
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Do you deny that there is a quote function in this forum?
You can't deny that this forum is rigged!
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Old 06-15-2009, 07:58 AM   #4694
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THE BANKS ALREADY HAVE THE CORNER ON STEALING HOMES.
Heh. Riggedologists everywhere, this is what you become when you expand your beliefs to other areas. Simplistic, angry , manifesto style beliefs written on billboards hanging onto your body type stuff. Enjoy.



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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
OK so you can be called a denialist.
I think be default it is best to not assume what random people are saying that involves conspiracies or other mystical forces at work is true until proven. All you or others have to do is prove your beliefs beyond "it's true because I know it's true and say it's true" with actual verifiable data.

Don't worry, no one ever expects you or other riggedologists to actually prove anything (as that is not your way), but just letting you know how a "denialist" thinks. At least that is what the Lizard people told me to say (you do not deny that Lizard people may be secretly in charge of everything do you...)





Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Why do denialists deny the fraud that has already happened? You can't make it go away. I suppose you think electronic voting machines are a safe and fair way to vote? gullibility is not a virtue.
Nobody denies the fraud that took place at UB. It was not rigged software though, so why use it as an example of rigged software? They are two separate issues that even a really out there paranoid guy like you should accept =).

And voting machine conspiracies, well that certainly has a lot to do with anything =). I bet you see hidden truths everywhere...

Enjoy your paranoia, and learn how to quote properly on a message board. If I can learn how to do that so can you.

All the best.
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:08 AM   #4695
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Why do denialists deny the fraud that has already happened? You can't make it go away.
I'm pretty sure that the people requesting the evidence of online poker being rigged (those that you call "denialists") have done more to protect the integrity of online poker than you ever will.

It is you who muddies the water of fraud, it is you who besmirches the reputation of good people, it is you who is an enemy of online poker being fair, reputable and honest. Your random, baseless, irrational and erratic attacks on the integrity of others is a discredit to those of us who actually care about integrity in online poker, and those of us who actually support our claims with evidence, mathematics and logic.
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:39 AM   #4696
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I'm pretty sure that the people requesting the evidence of online poker being rigged (those that you call "denialists") have done more to protect the integrity of online poker than you ever will.

It is you who muddies the water of fraud, it is you who besmirches the reputation of good people, it is you who is an enemy of online poker being fair, reputable and honest. Your random, baseless, irrational and erratic attacks on the integrity of others is a discredit to those of us who actually care about integrity in online poker, and those of us who actually support our claims with evidence, mathematics and logic.
well said
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:44 AM   #4697
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I'm pretty sure that the people requesting the evidence of online poker being rigged (those that you call "denialists") have done more to protect the integrity of online poker than you ever will.

It is you who muddies the water of fraud, it is you who besmirches the reputation of good people, it is you who is an enemy of online poker being fair, reputable and honest. Your random, baseless, irrational and erratic attacks on the integrity of others is a discredit to those of us who actually care about integrity in online poker, and those of us who actually support our claims with evidence, mathematics and logic.
This is one of the actual unfunny aspect of dealing with those that have these extreme, unprovable, conspiracy type beliefs. While they no doubt always totally believe in what their paranoid mind creates, the reality is that this selfish approach on their part is quite insulting to those who actually genuinely try to do what these guys think they are doing.

Similarly (and likely more emotional) would be the impact the equivalent conspiracists have on actual victims of tragic events as their theories often time trivialize what actually happened by creating mystical, complex theories behind an event.

I cannot imagine a family of a 9/11 victim would be thrilled to see a self proclaimed "truther" spouting off about intricate plots and melting steel etc. The conspiracy nuts are not helping by seeking the "truth," they are simply finding a new platform to expand their ego needs of being heard and recognizing for what they believe to be some secret truth. Knowing these secret truths are what helps them make their place in the world, and I mentioned, it is a totally selfish approach.

Yes it is fun tweaking at those who bring up mafia/entropy/faulty voting machines/War Games like hackers and all sorts of other creative theories, but the reality is that even recognizing them in jest takes away a bit from those who actually do the real and often times mundane work that protects consumers for real.

Many of us do appreciate that work.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:49 AM   #4698
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I am a winning online player . . .

I have a little money left online and after that I am done online until it is regulated in the US and maybe not even then.
I think the second comment presupposes that the first is untrue.
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:47 AM   #4699
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Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
I am a winning online player, and a big winner offline.

I have a little money left online and after that I am done online until it is regulated in the US and maybe not even then. I will be 100% sure the game I am playing is not tampered with before I spend another dollar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I think the second comment presupposes that the first is untrue.
also winning players dont spend money they invest it.
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:13 PM   #4700
Jspirit88
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Squirrel!


Who's saying the fraud didn't happen? The point he was making is the super user scandal had nothing to do with "rigging" an RNG.
The point is obvious, If security is so lax they allow a super user to defraud millions then how can they possibly stop hackers. I'm sure they have very sophisticated software but they don't have pockets like the pentagon(or maybe they do) and the pentagon gets hacked.
Regardless, there is a very lucrative incentive for employees that have access to the code to rig it and split the profit with another or just set up an account in another identity. Would be easy to keep it under the radar.
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