Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-13-2009, 09:35 PM   #4651
killshills
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 11
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Here’s what a highly respected poker pro had to say about online poker: “The Mob controlled Vegas under the noses of regulators, and Enron execs (and others) robbed people blind despite federal oversight, so it is naive to believe that gambling Web sites—which for all practical purposes are unregulated—are all fair and honest, especially in view of the seedy characters ( Two Plus Two shills ) attracted by gambling and easy money.” http://johnnyquads.com/Trust%20Online%20Poker.html

He also rips Sklansky and Helmuth a new one. http://johnnyquads.com/Screw%20the%20Books.html
killshills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 10:18 PM   #4652
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Anyone who uses their experience in live underground card rooms to question the integrity of other games is a moron.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 10:42 PM   #4653
LVGambler
banned
 
LVGambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EXIT42O
Posts: 4,884
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I think this is the way most sensible people feel. The only difference in opinions being that some people thing that it could be rigged without detection, whereas others don't believe this to be possible. I'm in the latter camp.

And then there are the select few who are convinced it is definitely rigged, and explain away the fact that they have no evidence by claiming it can't be proved. It's beyond me how anyone can be certain of something that can't be proved; I guess it's a "faith" think like religion. Come to think of it, I'd say the rigged believers have a lot in common with religious fanatics.
Amen brother! John 3:33 And Jesus said unto his disciples, "Thou shall not blame online poker for thy losses. Is it not the fault of those who wager and lose, than that of those who take their money?"

In other words, if you lose to what you think is a scam, you deserve to be scammed! Jesus said that.
LVGambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 10:50 PM   #4654
jumpoff
banned
 
jumpoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 890
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

if you read this guy´s bio you know he´s loosing online and he probably has serious other issues. win in big games every year for 25+ years and not turn pro, rather deal? and still telling your wife "honey if im lucky i´ll bring money tonight"? right.

lol at him expecting valueable information in Hellmuth´s book and complaining about its title.

and i know nothing about tournaments, but does he talk about icm here?

Quote:
Sklansky pushes a computer program(...)(Tournament Poker, page 69).
(...)
this all leads to paragraphs like this: “Suppose you have some inkling about what type of hands your opponent will raise you with. If that is the case, you can, in theory, calculate which hands to call with based on his possible holdings and the odds you are getting." (...)
Huh?
David, why should we do complicated computer research? That’s what we’re paying YOU to do.You’ve got the program, a chart or two would’ve been easy enough to do.
jumpoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 11:18 PM   #4655
Bobo Fett
Carpe Diem
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 52,337
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by killshills View Post
Here’s what a highly respected poker pro had to say about online poker: “The Mob controlled Vegas under the noses of regulators, and Enron execs (and others) robbed people blind despite federal oversight, so it is naive to believe that gambling Web sites—which for all practical purposes are unregulated—are all fair and honest, especially in view of the seedy characters ( Two Plus Two shills ) attracted by gambling and easy money.” http://johnnyquads.com/Trust%20Online%20Poker.html

He also rips Sklansky and Helmuth a new one. http://johnnyquads.com/Screw%20the%20Books.html
Not that it has any bearing on the legitimacy of his beliefs, but what an awful looking website. I can't remember the last time a website made me scroll horizontally to read everything.

I couldn't read much of it as my eyes started bleeding, but this appears to be a website by a supposed poker pro (we don't know for sure because he apparently is in hiding or some such thing) that promotes his book. What exactly is a quote from this website supposed to prove?
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 11:30 PM   #4656
killshills
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 11
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

John ( JohnnyQuads ) Wenzal is the editor of Poker Pro magazine, one of the most popular poker magazines in the world.

Last edited by killshills; 06-13-2009 at 11:38 PM.
killshills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 11:42 PM   #4657
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by killshills View Post
John ( JohnnyQuads ) Wenzal is the editor of Poker Pro magazine, one of the most popular poker magazines in the world.
never heard of it

Anyway, he loses a lot of credibility, if he had any in the first place.
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 11:59 PM   #4658
Jussurreal
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 395
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Since you seem to have posted here for years (as opposed to a healthy amount of the hit and run riggedologists (like - one word - hackers guy), and since you responded to an earlier post of mine please allow me to offer some possibilities to your concerns.




This requires one to be a blind believer of the "make it so" software platform. You say what you want it to do and it magically does it with no one ever finding out.

Stars has dealt billions and billions of hands. Other rooms have also dealt billions of hands. They make money from rake on those hands (even tourney ones through the buy in). Nearly every hand is boring and unmemorable, yet when the strange things happen as they will at times people look for reasons.

The reasons are simple. Billions of hands will yield to varying degrees all sorts of strange things.

I even posted my hand in stud of runner runner quads losing to runner runner runner straight flush. I thought it was funny, because it was.

Why in any practical sense would a room cheat in this way? I am talking real world, not made up conspiracy world. Sometimes the proposed crime is just to inefficient and pointless and risky in the context of the industry that that in and by itself deters it from happening.





You are saying "online poker is rigged." People who try to dance around their riggedologist beliefs are annoying, just accept who you are.





So ask yourself what you are proposing. Were they targeting you specifically? Do you really think they can set it up where 70% favorites lose every time and no one has noticed but you? And no one has the data base to prove it even with it happening all the time?

You had an unlucky streak (if it actually happened - many stretch reality in these cases) and that streak messed with your head and you created a set of beliefs to explain something that was simply a bad bit of luck at best (no idea how you played the actual hands but many riggedologists play quite badly and assign blame elsewhere).

I missed a spot for an event in Manila when with 4 people left on Titan (3 spots) after nearly an hour of very tough play I lost an all in when my 10 10 got called by 9 2 suited preflop. It made zero sense until the guy screamed "OMG I MISCLICKED!"

Sometimes $%^&^ happens.



That is called basic paranoia and you are creating beliefs to validate the paranoid tendencies such as house players/bots are out there to get us all with the add-on that you cannot catch them since they will alter the stats...

Try using this type of thinking and logic in other aspects of life and see how your friends and family react.




Lots of bad guys do bad things in this world, but usually there is a motive that makes sense. In this case everyone assumes it is about making more money, but if all of the poker sites are secretly sinister , dark, evil companies the fact is that they would commit crimes that were a lot better then nearly all of the paranoid riggedology suggestions, including yours.

Last, no one buys the " I am not saying I believe this, but" routine. If you are going to have these beliefs that is your right, but at least acquire a set of testicles to stand behind them like some of the other riggedologists have done. Sure I think they are a bit out there but at least they are proud of their beliefs.

All the best.

I said in my original post that I don't know if online poker is rigged or not, but it is stupid to believe that it can't possibly be rigged. That is what I said and that is what I meant. I don't have any proof that stars or tilt is rigged so I don't know 100% that they are. Some people are not republicans or democrats, they are in the middle. I'm in an area of grey with my beliefs, they are not black or white. For you to say it is impossible for a person to be undecided about something is well, dumb.

LIKE I SAID, I DON'T KNOW IF THE SITES ARE RIGGED. However it has been caught on one major site and who knows if it is going on elsewhere. Afterall, like I said, these sites don't know what is going to happen in the future. Americans make up a huge percentage of there players and they could have the "take it while it is available" attitude.

The argument amongst the shills was "then why hasn't a company been caught yet". Then when absolute was caught it turned into all kinds of other excuses. Its possible. A major company was caught doing it.

Listen, I make money playing online. I don't play a lot but I win when I do. However its not nearly as much as it is offline.

Also when I said I lost 11 consecutive all in hands that I had at least a 70% statistical advantage in, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED. It wasn't 10 hands or 12, it was 11 straight hands. Do that math. Remember to add in some 80%'s and 90%'s in there too because I had that advantage in many of them.

Don't try to play me out for a moron.
Jussurreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 12:15 AM   #4659
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I don't know why this needs to be repeated so often, but here goes:

1. I don't think there is anyone in this thread who has strongly said that it is impossible that the sites are rigged - only that so far THERE IS ASOLUTELY NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS GOING ON!

2. No one has said there is no cheating in online poker. But superuser accounts/hacking/screen captures are NOT the same as rigging, which relates to the dealing of the cards, not knowing what other users' cards are. This is why there is not a lot of discussion about that in this thread. There have been plenty of monster threads discussing the superusing scandals.

Folks, just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's happening. It is important that there are people in this thread who are seriously analyzing the data from the poker sites. From what I gather, there has not been one actual study showing ANY evidence of rigging.

I won't be surprised the day someone finds some good evidence, but until then...play on!
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 12:18 AM   #4660
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I won't be surprised the day someone finds some good evidence, but until then...play on!
I actually would, since there's been plenty of evidence presented that everything is legit thus far. I'm all for doing the research and it's good that people out there do it. What I'm not for is complaining that things are wrong before showing evidence they are. And coming online to complain every time you take a bad beat doesn't qualify.
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 12:27 AM   #4661
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by killshills View Post
John ( JohnnyQuads ) Wenzal is the editor of Poker Pro magazine, one of the most popular poker magazines in the world.
You sound like someone else who has posted in this thread...hmmmmm...
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 12:51 AM   #4662
Bobo Fett
Carpe Diem
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 52,337
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by killshills View Post
John ( JohnnyQuads ) Wenzal is the editor of Poker Pro magazine, one of the most popular poker magazines in the world.
Excellent. I haven't heard of him, but I don't really keep track of pros, so I'll take your word for it. Hopefully his magazine looks better than his website.

Regardless, I still ask, what exactly is a quote from this website supposed to prove?
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 12:54 AM   #4663
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by killshills View Post
John ( JohnnyQuads ) Wenzal is the editor of Poker Pro magazine, one of the most popular poker magazines in the world.
If only Sklansky had something comparable, perhaps numerous highly regarded books, or a website...
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 01:06 AM   #4664
LVGambler
banned
 
LVGambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EXIT42O
Posts: 4,884
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I don't know why this needs to be repeated so often, but here goes:

1. I don't think there is anyone in this thread who has strongly said that it is impossible that the sites are rigged - only that so far THERE IS ASOLUTELY NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS GOING ON!

2. No one has said there is no cheating in online poker. But superuser accounts/hacking/screen captures are NOT the same as rigging, which relates to the dealing of the cards, not knowing what other users' cards are. This is why there is not a lot of discussion about that in this thread. There have been plenty of monster threads discussing the superusing scandals.

Folks, just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's happening. It is important that there are people in this thread who are seriously analyzing the data from the poker sites. From what I gather, there has not been one actual study showing ANY evidence of rigging.

I won't be surprised the day someone finds some good evidence, but until then...play on!
Just like how I said I was so often accused of cheating as a dealer. I'm not saying dealers don't cheat. But just because something crazy happened to you, or happens to you often lol, doesn't mean it involved cheating. I would say that less than 1% of dealers cheat the customers. If anything, they're gonna cheat the house, not you. And why cheat the little guys, when one big guy should do the trick. You know how much time and money it would take to **** over a bunch of small and mid-stakes players? I used to tell people that if I was gonna cheat, it would be at the $100 tables, not the $5 ones. But stupid does what.. how does that saying go?
LVGambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 02:54 AM   #4665
jumpoff
banned
 
jumpoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 890
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
1. I don't think there is anyone in this thread who has strongly said that it is impossible that the sites are rigged - only that so far THERE IS ASOLUTELY NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS GOING ON!
and isnt the fact theres no evidence despite huge samples sort of evidence they arent rigged? if there were too many suckouts it would show in all in ev type stats. if a small pp had 40% preflop vs a bigger pp, a winnings vs ev graph would look like the programm got the ev calcs wrong.
the difference should show up in any random sample thats big enough, not sure if the sites could somehow avoid detection.
actually proving positivly that they arent rigged is impossible. there are infinite possible inputs and one of them could be the doomswitch.
jumpoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 05:18 AM   #4666
LVGambler
banned
 
LVGambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EXIT42O
Posts: 4,884
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpoff View Post
and isnt the fact theres no evidence despite huge samples sort of evidence they arent rigged? if there were too many suckouts it would show in all in ev type stats. if a small pp had 40% preflop vs a bigger pp, a winnings vs ev graph would look like the programm got the ev calcs wrong.
the difference should show up in any random sample thats big enough, not sure if the sites could somehow avoid detection.
actually proving positivly that they arent rigged is impossible. there are infinite possible inputs and one of them could be the doomswitch.
See, you were doing great with your reasoning right up until you said "actually proving positivly that they arent rigged is impossible. there are infinite possible inputs and one of them could be the doomswitch."

How did you get from "and isnt the fact theres no evidence despite huge samples sort of evidence they arent rigged?" to "actually proving positivly that they arent rigged is impossible" ??

There are huge samples as you stated. You are correct. The fact is theres no evidence.

Last edited by LVGambler; 06-14-2009 at 05:34 AM. Reason: don't you think that with all the losers out there somebody would have something by now?
LVGambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 05:40 AM   #4667
Bingo_Boy
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,872
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Did he say "missclicked" after the hand was over? or immediately? Could be a superuser-It has happened and will likely happen again. Just like nuclear bombs, nobody wants to except the fact that eventually it will happen again. Its statistically impossible not to happen. WHAT CAN HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN.
You could molest a young boy this afternoon right? I mean it can happen. I can't be 100% sure you aren't a paedophile so, "if it can happen it will happen" means we can be 100% sure it will. I have to make some huge assumptons, ignore all statistics and probability and refute any evidence and logic to the contrary, but "IF IT CAN HAPPEN IT WILL HAPPEN" right?
Bingo_Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 05:42 AM   #4668
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
but "IF IT CAN HAPPEN IT WILL HAPPEN" right?
it already did.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 06:18 AM   #4669
Lord Snooty
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 122
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
You had an unlucky streak (if it actually happened - many stretch reality in these cases) and that streak messed with your head and you created a set of beliefs
The best bit is, he walked away from the site after the 11 hands, thus taking away the opportunity for the luck to re-balance. For all we know, the next 11 situations might have been him winning when behind - but of course the human psyche tends to ignore this and only focus on the bad beats. But by walking away from the site and not giving the cards the chance to run, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Lord Snooty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 06:25 AM   #4670
Bingo_Boy
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,872
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by killshills View Post
Here’s what a highly respected poker pro had to say about online poker: “The Mob controlled Vegas under the noses of regulators, and Enron execs (and others) robbed people blind despite federal oversight, so it is naive to believe that gambling Web sites—which for all practical purposes are unregulated—are all fair and honest, especially in view of the seedy characters ( Two Plus Two shills ) attracted by gambling and easy money.” http://johnnyquads.com/Trust%20Online%20Poker.html

He also rips Sklansky and Helmuth a new one. http://johnnyquads.com/Screw%20the%20Books.html
Certainly highly respected by himself. That website is hideously designed, contradictory, self congratulatory nonsense. A couple of the "witty" comebacks on his website for anyone who missed them:


Local (after you turn over your hole cards and beat him): How can you stay in with a hand like that?
You: Look, you paid to see the hand. Lessons cost extra.

-- Johnny


Local: You play like a tourist.
You: That must be why I’m beating you.

-- Johnny
Bingo_Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 06:40 AM   #4671
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
Certainly highly respected by himself. That website is hideously designed, contradictory, self congratulatory nonsense. A couple of the "witty" comebacks on his website for anyone who missed them:


Local (after you turn over your hole cards and beat him): How can you stay in with a hand like that?
You: Look, you paid to see the hand. Lessons cost extra.

-- Johnny


Local: You play like a tourist.
You: That must be why I’m beating you.

-- Johnny
Didn't he reply with "yomomma" on one of them too? lol
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 06:47 AM   #4672
senjitsu
banned
 
senjitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: λαγχάν
Posts: 3,058
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
Didn't he reply with "yomomma" on one of them too? lol
per the books link is he under the impression that PH has won the me twice
senjitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 07:20 AM   #4673
SooperFish24
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,028
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by killshills View Post
Here’s what a highly respected poker pro had to say about online poker: “The Mob controlled Vegas under the noses of regulators, and Enron execs (and others) robbed people blind despite federal oversight, so it is naive to believe that gambling Web sites—which for all practical purposes are unregulated—are all fair and honest, especially in view of the seedy characters ( Two Plus Two shills ) attracted by gambling and easy money.” http://johnnyquads.com/Trust%20Online%20Poker.html

He also rips Sklansky and Helmuth a new one. http://johnnyquads.com/Screw%20the%20Books.html
Nice post. This pretty much sums it up. Along with the Russ Hamilton quote I read here. Something like "anyone who plays Online Poker is a sucker."
SooperFish24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 07:32 AM   #4674
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
Nice post. This pretty much sums it up. Along with the Russ Hamilton quote I read here. Something like "anyone who plays Online Poker is a sucker."
LOL.... "Nice post." Here's a guy who thinks Hellmuth won the main event twice, sets up a web page that requires the user to scroll horizontally to read it all, and posts his witty teenager style comebacks any time somebody has something to say to him on the tables, on his website.

We shall anoint him our rigtard leader!


Oh, and this might be the best in terms of credibility.

"Johnny quit his day job as an editor of the National Enquirer (and part-time poker dealer) in 2006"

lmfao

He also sells his "Take No Crap" t-shirts for $20. What a bargain!

Last edited by NFuego20; 06-14-2009 at 07:38 AM.
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 08:22 AM   #4675
senjitsu
banned
 
senjitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: λαγχάν
Posts: 3,058
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
If a teenager can hack into the Pentagon, someone should be able to hack into a poker site, right?
has this actually happened (the teenager hacking the pentagon) outside of a matthew broderick flick
senjitsu is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive