Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,449 34.95%
No 5,524 55.98%
Undecided 895 9.07%
Voters: 9868. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-12-2009, 02:17 PM   #4626
jumpoff
banned
 
jumpoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 890
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

you´re right. i dont think they care either and its probably the right thing to do, too, mostly for practical reasons.

i was just a bit annoyed by the ignorance and arrogance of his post, and wanted him to see why.
jumpoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 07:37 PM   #4627
MostlyBS
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 886
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU FTP
Every damn time I get rake back deposited into my account, i get doomswitched, can't win a flip, all my big hands get suckout on, all the money from the rakeback is always lost. fu ck ing rigged sh it
MostlyBS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 07:39 PM   #4628
DMoogle
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DMoogle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern VA, USA
Posts: 7,159
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Well this thread sure has died down the past few days...
DMoogle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 02:32 AM   #4629
toltec444
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 496
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Glad to see that thread is alive


Im becoming a believer


That scares me
toltec444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 03:37 AM   #4630
LVGambler
banned
 
LVGambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EXIT42O
Posts: 4,884
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Wow! 4560 posts and it's gone nowhere.

LVGambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 06:27 AM   #4631
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Give it another 50 or so and I'm sure they'll have proven that all the sites are rigged beyond a reasonable doubt.
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 07:15 AM   #4632
LVGambler
banned
 
LVGambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EXIT42O
Posts: 4,884
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I can't wait!
LVGambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 01:41 PM   #4633
Rounding4Rent
journeyman
 
Rounding4Rent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 234
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

the whole reason this thread is so big is because people are so interested in the topic.. there IS alot of speculation about online poker being rigged.. because it is.
Rounding4Rent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 03:17 PM   #4634
Arouet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Arouet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,433
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Well, that settles it then. Glad it didn't take 50 posts.

/thread. Debate over!
Arouet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 03:30 PM   #4635
toltec444
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 496
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I think it can be rigged....but by now Im thinking it is probably not
toltec444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 04:12 PM   #4636
Bobo Fett
Carpe Diem
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 52,455
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
I think it can be rigged....but by now Im thinking it is probably not
I think this is the way most sensible people feel. The only difference in opinions being that some people thing that it could be rigged without detection, whereas others don't believe this to be possible. I'm in the latter camp.

And then there are the select few who are convinced it is definitely rigged, and explain away the fact that they have no evidence by claiming it can't be proved. It's beyond me how anyone can be certain of something that can't be proved; I guess it's a "faith" think like religion. Come to think of it, I'd say the rigged believers have a lot in common with religious fanatics.
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 04:41 PM   #4637
toltec444
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 496
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I think this is the way most sensible people feel. The only difference in opinions being that some people thing that it could be rigged without detection, whereas others don't believe this to be possible. I'm in the latter camp.

And then there are the select few who are convinced it is definitely rigged, and explain away the fact that they have no evidence by claiming it can't be proved. It's beyond me how anyone can be certain of something that can't be proved; I guess it's a "faith" think like religion. Come to think of it, I'd say the rigged believers have a lot in common with religious fanatics.

I´ve been wtaching live game more close in this matter, and lots of bad things happen, very frequently.
toltec444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 05:18 PM   #4638
Jspirit88
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 46
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by okiehustler View Post
Bad beats are part of the game. I understand that. But after absorbing more than my fair share on Poker Stars I switched to Full Tilt six months ago. The first few months were much better over on Full Tilt.

Now Full Tilt is worse than Poker Stars ever was. The past month has been brutal. Tonight I've had pocket aces six times. All six times I lost to someone with a lower pocket pair.

I can't tell you how many times (at least 100 times the past thee weeks) where someone needs one card, especially two or three hours into a tournament, and they hit when odds are 90 to 95% in my favor.

You tell yourself that's poker until it happens time after time after time.

I enjoy playing poker online but I'm about ready to give it up. There doesn't seem to be a site to where it plays out like a casino. You see bad beats in a casino but NOTHING like Full Tilt and Poker Stars back when I played over on that site.

Curious as to others observations. Is there a site that's on the up and up or is it time to retire from online poker where you start to get the feeling the deck literally is stacked against you?


I've read through scores of responses and have yet to read anything about the possibility of hacking. If people can hack into the pentagon why do we feel secure with online poker? Maybe the skeptics don't know about the UB superuser scandal. Why didn't UB/AP see the superuser being used? So it can happen or be ignored. I can't believe UB/AP security didn't "see" the superuser, so one must conclude a conspiracy or just morons in security. Maybe the software can be hacked to not set off "superuser alarms". Does the computer generate hands before they are played or is it instant? If they are pregenerated one has to ask why and maybe the finished hand can be seen preplayed. with millions at stake people become very ingenious.
So I play online for fun and learning and stay at the small stakes tables.
Jspirit88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 05:20 PM   #4639
Jspirit88
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 46
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

What can happen will happen including hacking and rigging
Jspirit88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 05:24 PM   #4640
Jussurreal
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 395
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
When stats guys with actual data go head to head against people who only remember their last couple of bad beats - funny things happen.
Do you not realize that the guys who own these places probably have enough resources to come up with programs that fit into your poker tracking programs (that are available for the masses) and still gives them control of hand results?

Guys wake up here. I'm not saying I know 100% that online poker is rigged, but as a winning player online and off, I can say that online poker is nothing like offline. Too many wildly strange things happen online that make it extremely suspicious.

At poker room I lost 11 consecutive all in hands where I was statistically dominate at 70% or above. I never played there again of course. I also won a spot at the online poker classic from there starting at a 50 dollar satellite. 1 attempt and I made it to a 5200 dollar seat. I cashed it out because they gave us the option to play or cash out the seat when the UIGEA was passed. I do not count this money as money I have won online when I say I am a winner online.

Enough things have happened at the other sites too that have me questioning every site out there. House players stats can be made up to give to the performance tracking websites.

Then they selectively pick some players that they will let win consistantly, and you have the public completely fooled and you are a multi billionaire.

Not saying this is the case but you are not thinking straight if you say its not possible.
Jussurreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 06:46 PM   #4641
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,240
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Since you seem to have posted here for years (as opposed to a healthy amount of the hit and run riggedologists (like - one word - hackers guy), and since you responded to an earlier post of mine please allow me to offer some possibilities to your concerns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
Do you not realize that the guys who own these places probably have enough resources to come up with programs that fit into your poker tracking programs (that are available for the masses) and still gives them control of hand results?
This requires one to be a blind believer of the "make it so" software platform. You say what you want it to do and it magically does it with no one ever finding out.

Stars has dealt billions and billions of hands. Other rooms have also dealt billions of hands. They make money from rake on those hands (even tourney ones through the buy in). Nearly every hand is boring and unmemorable, yet when the strange things happen as they will at times people look for reasons.

The reasons are simple. Billions of hands will yield to varying degrees all sorts of strange things.

I even posted my hand in stud of runner runner quads losing to runner runner runner straight flush. I thought it was funny, because it was.

Why in any practical sense would a room cheat in this way? I am talking real world, not made up conspiracy world. Sometimes the proposed crime is just to inefficient and pointless and risky in the context of the industry that that in and by itself deters it from happening.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
Guys wake up here. I'm not saying I know 100% that online poker is rigged, but as a winning player online and off, I can say that online poker is nothing like offline. Too many wildly strange things happen online that make it extremely suspicious.
You are saying "online poker is rigged." People who try to dance around their riggedologist beliefs are annoying, just accept who you are.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
At poker room I lost 11 consecutive all in hands where I was statistically dominate at 70% or above. I never played there again of course. I also won a spot at the online poker classic from there starting at a 50 dollar satellite. 1 attempt and I made it to a 5200 dollar seat. I cashed it out because they gave us the option to play or cash out the seat when the UIGEA was passed. I do not count this money as money I have won online when I say I am a winner online.
So ask yourself what you are proposing. Were they targeting you specifically? Do you really think they can set it up where 70% favorites lose every time and no one has noticed but you? And no one has the data base to prove it even with it happening all the time?

You had an unlucky streak (if it actually happened - many stretch reality in these cases) and that streak messed with your head and you created a set of beliefs to explain something that was simply a bad bit of luck at best (no idea how you played the actual hands but many riggedologists play quite badly and assign blame elsewhere).

I missed a spot for an event in Manila when with 4 people left on Titan (3 spots) after nearly an hour of very tough play I lost an all in when my 10 10 got called by 9 2 suited preflop. It made zero sense until the guy screamed "OMG I MISCLICKED!"

Sometimes $%^&^ happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
Enough things have happened at the other sites too that have me questioning every site out there. House players stats can be made up to give to the performance tracking websites.

Then they selectively pick some players that they will let win consistantly, and you have the public completely fooled and you are a multi billionaire.
That is called basic paranoia and you are creating beliefs to validate the paranoid tendencies such as house players/bots are out there to get us all with the add-on that you cannot catch them since they will alter the stats...

Try using this type of thinking and logic in other aspects of life and see how your friends and family react.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussurreal View Post
Not saying this is the case but you are not thinking straight if you say its not possible.
Lots of bad guys do bad things in this world, but usually there is a motive that makes sense. In this case everyone assumes it is about making more money, but if all of the poker sites are secretly sinister , dark, evil companies the fact is that they would commit crimes that were a lot better then nearly all of the paranoid riggedology suggestions, including yours.

Last, no one buys the " I am not saying I believe this, but" routine. If you are going to have these beliefs that is your right, but at least acquire a set of testicles to stand behind them like some of the other riggedologists have done. Sure I think they are a bit out there but at least they are proud of their beliefs.

All the best.
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 06:55 PM   #4642
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,963
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Statistics, and randomness, are, I think, two of the most poorly understood subjects in our society, and it's poorly understood because truly understanding this stuff runs directly contrary to billions of years of evolution.

In short, our brains are hard wired to identify patterns quickly, and rely upon those judgements. If our forebears saw a lion running quickly towards us, they needed to very quickly identify it as a threat, plot a likely path of the lion, and get out of the way... and if they didn't identify this pattern, they'd die pretty quickly. Consequently, the only people alive today are the descendants of people who were good at identifying patterns.

However, this same pattern-finding ability in our brains is what messes things up. Precisely the same thing happens in poker - people see several similar hands in a row, and our natural pattern-finding habit kicks in... but this time, it isn't really there.

This is exacerbated by our mind only remembering those things that are notable.

For example, let's say the following hypothetical thought example happens. A random number is to be chosen between 1 and 10.

The first selection is 1.

The second selection is 2.

The third selection is 3.

What's the fourth selection going to be?

Human brains, by nature, identify the pattern above as the number increasing by 1 each random selection. They see a pattern there, even though there is none - because we're trained, through evolution, to recognise patterns very quickly, because recognising patterns keeps us alive.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 07:16 PM   #4643
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
I've read through scores of responses and have yet to read anything about the possibility of hacking. If people can hack into the pentagon why do we feel secure with online poker? Maybe the skeptics don't know about the UB superuser scandal. Why didn't UB/AP see the superuser being used?
Why? Because it was one of them using it. It's not as if they told support "Oh hey, so there are a few accounts that can see hole cards, here are the names, be sure to keep an eye out."
Quote:
So it can happen or be ignored. I can't believe UB/AP security didn't "see" the superuser, so one must conclude a conspiracy or just morons in security. Maybe the software can be hacked to not set off "superuser alarms".
You'd have to be one hell of a hacker to be able to break into their computers, somehow figure out which accounts are superusers, and then figure out how to get access to those accounts. It's probably as difficult as hacking into a bank computer system, and without the instant reward that comes with that.
Quote:
Does the computer generate hands before they are played or is it instant?
Depends on the site. Pokerstars preshuffles and then sets the deck, Full Tilt continuously shuffles cards, even mid hand.
Quote:
If they are pregenerated one has to ask why and maybe the finished hand can be seen preplayed.
Even UB/AP's superusers couldn't see what was coming, just what their opponents held.
Quote:
with millions at stake people become very ingenious.
So I play online for fun and learning and stay at the small stakes tables.
Yeah, people have hacked others before, but it was some sort of screen capturing worm sent through AIM. I think someone did it to Patrik Antonius and he lost a few thousand before switching computers and having the guy quit him. That's completely different from the sites rigging the deal.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 07:33 PM   #4644
Jspirit88
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 46
Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
Wow, I've never seen a 4.34% shot happen ever. I mean that's proof right there. Any time a 1 out of 23 hits, something is so totally wrong. Proof of riggedness. /thread
Shortstack made no such statement at least on that statement. Yes this is just another bad beat. At least he had a pair.
Jspirit88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 07:46 PM   #4645
Jspirit88
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 46
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
Wow, I've never seen a 4.34% shot happen ever. I mean that's proof right there. Any time a 1 out of 23 hits, something is so totally wrong. Proof of riggedness. /thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Since you seem to have posted here for years (as opposed to a healthy amount of the hit and run riggedologists (like - one word - hackers guy), and since you responded to an earlier post of mine please allow me to offer some possibilities to your concerns.




This requires one to be a blind believer of the "make it so" software platform. You say what you want it to do and it magically does it with no one ever finding out.

Stars has dealt billions and billions of hands. Other rooms have also dealt billions of hands. They make money from rake on those hands (even tourney ones through the buy in). Nearly every hand is boring and unmemorable, yet when the strange things happen as they will at times people look for reasons.

The reasons are simple. Billions of hands will yield to varying degrees all sorts of strange things.

I even posted my hand in stud of runner runner quads losing to runner runner runner straight flush. I thought it was funny, because it was.

Why in any practical sense would a room cheat in this way? I am talking real world, not made up conspiracy world. Sometimes the proposed crime is just to inefficient and pointless and risky in the context of the industry that that in and by itself deters it from happening.





You are saying "online poker is rigged." People who try to dance around their riggedologist beliefs are annoying, just accept who you are.





So ask yourself what you are proposing. Were they targeting you specifically? Do you really think they can set it up where 70% favorites lose every time and no one has noticed but you? And no one has the data base to prove it even with it happening all the time?

You had an unlucky streak (if it actually happened - many stretch reality in these cases) and that streak messed with your head and you created a set of beliefs to explain something that was simply a bad bit of luck at best (no idea how you played the actual hands but many riggedologists play quite badly and assign blame elsewhere).

I missed a spot for an event in Manila when with 4 people left on Titan (3 spots) after nearly an hour of very tough play I lost an all in when my 10 10 got called by 9 2 suited preflop. It made zero sense until the guy screamed "OMG I MISCLICKED!"

Sometimes $%^&^ happens.
Did he say "missclicked" after the hand was over? or immediately? Could be a superuser-It has happened and will likely happen again. Just like nuclear bombs, nobody wants to except the fact that eventually it will happen again. Its statistically impossible not to happen. WHAT CAN HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN.


That is called basic paranoia and you are creating beliefs to validate the paranoid tendencies such as house players/bots are out there to get us all with the add-on that you cannot catch them since they will alter the stats...

Try using this type of thinking and logic in other aspects of life and see how your friends and family react.




Lots of bad guys do bad things in this world, but usually there is a motive that makes sense. In this case everyone assumes it is about making more money, but if all of the poker sites are secretly sinister , dark, evil companies the fact is that they would commit crimes that were a lot better then nearly all of the paranoid riggedology suggestions, including yours.

Last, no one buys the " I am not saying I believe this, but" routine. If you are going to have these beliefs that is your right, but at least acquire a set of testicles to stand behind them like some of the other riggedologists have done. Sure I think they are a bit out there but at least they are proud of their beliefs.

All the best.
Is money not a motive? As long as the owners get their profit what do they care if the employees are getting a cut to, as long as its under the radar? AP/UB proves fraud in online poker. Why are you in denial?
Jspirit88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 07:48 PM   #4646
Jspirit88
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 46
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Is money not a motive? As long as the owners get their profit what do they care if the employees are getting a cut to, as long as its under the radar? AP/UB proves fraud in online poker. Why are you in denial?
Did he say "missclicked" after the hand was over? or immediately? Could be a superuser-It has happened and will likely happen again. Just like nuclear bombs, nobody wants to except the fact that eventually it will happen again. Its statistically impossible not to happen. WHAT CAN HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN.
Jspirit88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 08:06 PM   #4647
Jspirit88
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 46
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
Why? Because it was one of them using it. It's not as if they told support "Oh hey, so there are a few accounts that can see hole cards, here are the names, be sure to keep an eye out."You'd have to be one hell of a hacker to be able to break into their computers, somehow figure out which accounts are superusers, and then figure out how to get access to those accounts. It's probably as difficult as hacking into a bank computer system, and without the instant reward that comes with that.Depends on the site. Pokerstars preshuffles and then sets the deck, Full Tilt continuously shuffles cards, even mid hand.Even UB/AP's superusers couldn't see what was coming, just what their opponents held.
Yeah, people have hacked others before, but it was some sort of screen capturing worm sent through AIM. I think someone did it to Patrik Antonius and he lost a few thousand before switching computers and having the guy quit him. That's completely different from the sites rigging the deal.
quote--
"You'd have to be one hell of a hacker to be able to break into their computers, somehow figure out which accounts are superusers, and then figure out how to get access to those accounts. It's probably as difficult as hacking into a bank computer system, and without the instant reward that comes with." .

Some of the best minds in America are hackers.(doesn't say much for our system of finding and using genius). Sometimes they get jobs defending from hacks. Do the poker sites employ such people? some do some don't right? Anyway, even credit card numbers have been hacked or "accidentally released"., so even banks are not safe. Banks are defrauded often by the employees. Penny shaving programs are just one example. The guy stole the rounded down fractions of pennies and was only found out because he told a friend. He had millions stowed away. Look at the fraud in our financial system, and you think online poker is safe? Man are you gullible.
Jspirit88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 08:16 PM   #4648
Jspirit88
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 46
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

QUOTE---
"Why? Because it was one of them using it. It's not as if they told support "Oh hey, so there are a few accounts that can see hole cards, here are the names, be sure to keep an eye out.QUOTE

If I'm not mistaken the super users were no longer employees, or maybe this was a payoff for their consulting work?
Jspirit88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 08:23 PM   #4649
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,963
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Is money not a motive? As long as the owners get their profit what do they care if the employees are getting a cut to, as long as its under the radar? AP/UB proves fraud in online poker. Why are you in denial?
Enron is American. Enron was fraudulent. You are American.

Therefore, you are a fruadster. You should be arrested immediately.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 08:54 PM   #4650
Bobo Fett
Carpe Diem
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 52,455
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Did he say "missclicked" after the hand was over? or immediately? Could be a superuser-It has happened and will likely happen again.
One hand is enough for you to call "superuser"? Do you even know what that means? The last thing a super user would do is call someone's TT preflop all-in with 9-2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Just like nuclear bombs, nobody wants to except the fact that eventually it will happen again.
Not sure what accepting that someone may one day launch a nuclear weapon has with the issue at hand. Actually, I am sure. Nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Its statistically impossible not to happen,
Really? I'd like to see those statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
WHAT CAN HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN.
No.

Oh, BTW, you might find handy.
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive